Sun in Leo - sign project

Q&A and discussion on the meanings of the Zodiacal Constellations, Sun and Moon sign-meanings, etc.
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Jim Eshelman
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Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:01 am

Welcome to the Sun in Leo discussions project, which will run August 17 - September 17, 2017 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Sun in Leo people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Sun in Leo interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p159
Cyril Fagan: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=101#p626
Garth Allen: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p134
Rupert Gleadow: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=91#p562
Manilius: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=121#p742
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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:21 am

The gates are open.
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Lance
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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Lance » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:38 pm

My wife is a Leo. Her Moon is in Aries, and it's somewhat difficult for me to separate the qualities of the two since I associate both with being strong willed.

She is her own authority for sure. It's her feelings, her opinion, her experiences that are important in her own decision-making processes. There is an inborn rejection of external authority. I don't mean she is an anti-authoritarian, reactionary type. I just mean she's just sincerely not impressed. She's not impressed enough with authorities to protest them. She just ignores them and does her own thing. I just made myself literally laugh out loud because this is exactly true of her.

She's very loyal, devoted, and loving of both me and the children. She does have much affection to give. At the same time, there's a strength... a firmness to her. It's not a enabling kind of love - "enabling" in the sense of encouraging dysfunctional behavior. In that sense, she is sort of an anti-enabler. She can be pretty strict with our daughter, but it's usually a calm, matter-of-fact, this-or-that kind of strict.

She is very much a "doer" - almost to the point of defining her.

Definitely a strong woman, but not loud or ostentatious at all. Quiet and strong.

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Arena
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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Arena » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:21 am

I know that you probably won't like my criticism, I am sorry, but somehow I feel compelled :D

I know so many people born during this period and they are so "un-Leonian" that it almost makes me laugh to read those descriptions that are so unlike them. In fact I can't say that they are all "alike", but a few of them have some similarities and they are all very "Mercurian", very intelligent and analytical and logical thinkers, literate in the sense that they read a whole lot and know a lot, some to the point that you can almost use them as an encyclopedia. Some of them work with analytics, data, computers and others with business. Very practical in all their approach, to love, the upbringing of children and to life in general. Another distinct trait I see in them all is that they are very un-religious and have no belief at all in "higher power" or any kind of "god". All of them very "down to earth" and none of them have any kind of tendency or need to "shine". Some of the above-mentioned people even have angular Suns (unless birth time is off).

This just encourages me even more strongly to keep going down the path of astrology that I am already on, which is not to look at the signs but much rather at angularity of planets and planetary expression in relation to each other, i.e. tight aspects.

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by SteveS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:36 am

"Listen to the Lion."

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:38 am

Arena wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:21 am
I know that you probably won't like my criticism, I am sorry, but somehow I feel compelled :D
Just speaking for myself, having "criticisms" is not a bad thing. The whole point of these threads is to collect observations, whether they agree with "tradition" or not. That's how we get new insights and ideas.

I seem to know few-to-no Leos. I hung around one in Senior High, but I would prefer commenting on someone past that age.

-Derek

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:05 am

I posted this to reinforce Derek's post below.
Arena wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:21 am
This just encourages me even more strongly to keep going down the path of astrology that I am already on, which is not to look at the signs but much rather at angularity of planets and planetary expression in relation to each other, i.e. tight aspects.
What we're trying to do here is create a new basis for describing the "signs." Jim said that right up front. The reason we're doing that is Jim (and I, and you, and a lot of us) are not happy with what we have, and we want our descriptions to be observation based, not based on what Fagan or Manilius said nor even a younger Eshelman and Stanton said. The traits you describe as belonging to Leos you know are Leonine. The descriptions are (at least in part) wrong.
So just to be clear, I don't know who you meant by "you" when you said "I know you probably won't like my criticism" but criticism of our current definitions is the whole point of these threads.

I agree with your assessment of Leo characteristics, but not your attribution to their being "Mercurian." For instance, most of Mercury's breadth of learning is a product of getting bored and hopping along to a new topic. That's not a characteristic of Leo which tends to go deep.

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:33 pm

I am a Leo. (I'm sure that doesn't come as a surprise to most people here.) I also know a lot of Leos. Not a surprise there either. The end of Leo and beginning of Virgo are nine months after the Capricorn community unity celebrations and Sagittarian solstice holidays. There are a lot of Leos.

Of the resources Jim gave at the beginning of this thread, Fagan's fits me and Leos I know the least, and while who wouldn't want to be called the "growing tip of humanity" as the Eshelman/Stanton description does, I think Gleadow's, pieced together from older texts, is closest to the mark, at least in the superficial way most older descriptions take. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect a description meant to fit a twelfth of the population of the earth to fit me in every detail.

Leos do seem to have a lot in common, although not every single one of us shows every single characteristic. Most of us do seem to always have a book (or a Kindle) in hand. While other people keep a blanket and a power bar in the car just in case, most of us Leos also keep a book. Leos I know are analytical, down to earth, practical, especially with children, although in most other aspects of life as well, and have no interest either in worshiping anything, or in being the center or the leader of anything. They do often end up being chosen to lead, but that's because they're practical and capable, and good with the mechanics, not because they look for it.

(I think a lot of the older descriptions made it sound as if natives of the constellation sought out situations they often found themselves in, which certainly fits with Jim's apparent philosophy that you cause everything that happens to you, but most of us think there is actually outside action in people's lives. I don't believe anybody caused the recent hurricanes. You can say those old people who died because their nursing home didn't have a big enough generator to run the air conditioning this week (Sept 13, 2017 in Florida) should have made more money so they could have moved into a higher quality place. That doesn't explain the lack of response from the power company over the several days previously, or the government's decision not to make nursing homes a higher priority on the list for places to get their power restored.)

Reading through other descriptions, I find "spendthrift" (Manilius) and also "thousand little pieces of paper" (Eshelman) and other indications of Leos being less than organized. I disagree with any of that having anything to do with having an organized mind. Leos tend to choose not to rob today to pay for tomorrow. Although most live within their means, they aren't afraid of buying nicer things rather than saving up for a nicer nursing home. They also tend to believe, like many religious orders, that if they need it, the money will show up. They don't indulge in much magical thinking, but they do have a usually unconscious belief they will never go without. Doesn't always work that way, of course, but Leos also seem to be able to land on their feet.
I had a neighbor who used to say she couldn't understand how I could live "like that" (meaning messy) but could still find anything in my house faster than she could find things in her everything in it's place house, and that she'd eat off the floor behind my refrigerator anytime although she wouldn't do the same in her house. She was a Cancer. She needed her house to look good for company, while I needed mine to be clean. Other Leos I know are the same. Clean, but in need of minions to pick up after them.

Not finished yet.

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Danica » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:45 pm

I don't know many Leos, unfortunately so, since the ones I do know are - to put it most simply - beautiful human beings.

The description from the main Interpretative source here on forum is very accurate for all except 2 on my list of 13 people. The main characteristic, which I see in all of them, and which speaks most loudly about what they all visibly (at least to me) have in common, is the balanced, natural dignity - with no arrogance at all in it. They tend to uplift others by their mere presence.
QUID VOLIS ILUD FAC

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by By Jove » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:01 pm

IMO the problem with interpreting zodiac signs are twofold.

1) The descriptions of tropical zodiac signs has infected our collective consciousness so deeply we can barely think outside of it. Like with Leo we keep juggling between Tropical Leo and Tropical Virgo descriptions because the tropical signs are so mixed up at this point.

I honestly wish tropical astrology never existed so none of this confusing nonsense would exist in the first place. I have suffered from it all acutely for the last ten years. It's like to truly understand zodiac signs, let alone all of astrology, you have to wipe your mind clean of all the {bs} astrology peddled for decade.

2) Zodiac signs, unlike planetary angularities and aspects, are made of a broad set of archetypal traits, so any attempt to pin down specific personality traits is going to be difficult and only a master astrologer like Jim can do it consistently. Planetary angularities and aspects (even fixed stars) are, by contrast, very specific influences dependent on exacting circumstances.

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:08 pm

1) But I've spent nearly 50 years juggling and sorting through that exact problem.

2) I broadly agree with you. Sign placements are archetypal sensitivities that precipitate sensitivity to particular symbols that further precipitate into behavior. It's the threshold issue in understanding how to approach signs.
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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by By Jove » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:10 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:08 pm
1) But I've spent nearly 50 years juggling and sorting through that exact problem.
I honestly prefer to study ancient astrology and traditional Western astrologers, as well as the influences of the fixed stars. Not saying your work isn't great, Jim - it is and I love it - but older astrology lets us see the original zodiac before the new tropical astrology came and ruined it. And we have to still, sadly, carry that baggage around. I sometimes wonder if the cancer can ever be fully eradicated. Bad ideas can last thousands of years.

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Re: Sun in Leo - sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:25 am

But we also have to frame it in terms of contemporary cultural elements. Even the interpretations written in the late 1970s are out of date substantially because the cultural context in which they were written has shifted, so the same fundamental drives and characters cannot express in the same ways in people's actual lives.

The ancients were great, but you have to pick your ancients :) And a great deal of work has been done (especially by Gleadow, then by each investigator that has had access to his breakdowns) to filter through these exact issues you mention. (You'd probably like his analyses of the signs better than any other modern Sidereal authors: He mostly did the work that you say interests you the most.)
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