Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

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Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm

I'm seriously questioning the commonplace view that Sun in Gemini is essentially rational and driven by piercing reason. I know that I've fed this view, so I'm taking responsibility for questioning it in public.

I think it is better said that they are driven by reasons - and by the mobilization of reason and logic in a normal-healthy expression of the same traits that paranoids use reinforce and defend a particular point of view. This reinforces the view that Geminis are essentially intuitive, i.e., that they come to a conclusion first, and build the logic leading to it afterwards.

The anti-Jupiter (anti-Sagittarius) themes are every bit as strong as I've historically thought, and even stronger. In fact, the Geminis I personally know at this stage of my life have a pretty hard time existing in everybody else's world except in the most workaday sense. "What others expect of them" just doesn't make sense to them - this seems to feed the almost tantrum-like insistence on personal autonomy that I wrote about 35 years ago.

But, as a Virgo, I just can't see them as reasonable - using reason - in the sense of "collecting facts and then using the code of logic to reach a conclusion."

It seems to me that they are more driven by reasons than by reason.

And I really think - more than I gave voice to in the past - that the most fundamental characteristic of Gemini as a whole is the social alienation, the being an alien in anything more than superficial society. (It may even be that the tendency to think of Gemini as superficial is that this is the only level at which they feel say around most other people.)

So... throwing this out there. What do you think, based on first-person experience with Gemini?
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:I know a few Geminis personally. All women, all born within a couple of days either way of the 4th of July.

I have always had trouble seeing them as totally rational, and I agree, they make a decision, then come up with justification for that decision being the right one.

They all own small service businesses. They all have either a partner, or rent space in a larger enterprise (common in the beauty industry.) They're all scientifically oriented, including those who work in the beauty industry. (For instance, you want someone technically- and detail-oriented working in electrolysis or manicures, rather than someone who's esthetically skilled but can't manage an autoclave.) They are their own bosses, but don't like working in a one person environment, and don't like to eat alone.

Not finished, but it's past bed time.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:03 pm

Danica wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:they come to a conclusion first, and build the logic leading to it afterwards.
I think this is spot on!

And the paradox is: they themselves do not recognize this process for what it is inside themselves. They focus on logic, and initial intuition is often completely unnoticed or simply disregarded.

I had a Gemini-Sun best friend in elementary school, and I remember how she used to solve mathematical problems (tasks): it was pure intuition, but immediately followed by logic, so she would easily elaborate her solution and make it observable by others (I, on the other hand, was good with intuiting the solution, but often utterly unable to explain how I arrived there - unaspected Mercury - and I always admired her skill with this :D ). But, I have to add, her natal Mercury is conjunct Mars, and both are opposed by Neptune.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:04 pm

Thanks to both of you. Please keep the observation coming.

As I dig back into Gemini, this sort of thing seems so much more obvious to me. I hadn't revisited the Virgo vs. Gemini contrast in a significant way in, oh, decades, and the thing that stands out more than anything is how Virgo is anti-Neptunian and Gemini is anti-Jupiterian.

From the point of view of logic, I'm inclined to say that with Virgo it's all about the process, not the conclusion. In a sense, Virgo doesn't really care whether the outcome is correct - it's all about maintaining the integrity of the path to an answer. I can change my mind about something within moments on learning new information which, applied to an original argument, gives a new conclusion. On the other hand, I can seem stubborn beyond reason on something that may or may not be correct simply because what matters is that, given the current data it is the correct conclusion. - Gemini, in contrast, doesn't seem to care for the process at all, and is more interested in the answer.

There is a whole block of Gemini behavior that I've known for years as anti-Sagittarius. It shows in various ways as anti-imperial, anti-aristocratic, anti-royal. Among politicians, it is the "every man" image (which also is attributed to Virgo by Bradley and others). Think of George W. Bush, born with two or three silver spoons in his mouth (with the partile angular Moon-Jupiter conjunction to show for it) who comes across like a dumbed-down "I'm one o'you". The U.S. Gemini "plurality" character stands in contrast to, and in rebellion against, the British Sagittarian aristocracy. Other political examples are Gerald Ford (the only president who ran for neither president nor vice president, and who played his role as a common man), Calvin Coolidge ("Quiet Cal," sworn into office at his dad's mountain cabin), etc.

There are numerous examples of anti-royal etc., including the late Duke of Windsor - Gemini-Aquarius, i.e., anti-Sagittarius, anti-Leo, the type of character that would more easily step down from being a king. But he's hardly the only one: I have a number of Gemini Suns who rather easily accepted outright exile and expatriation. Consider the current Dalai Lama (who also was a king, who now has abdicated his entire ruling lineage) and Edward Snowden, for example.

In fact, in trying to find the underlying root traits from which all of Gemini's other traits emerge, I'm drawn to two (strangely :) ): the obvious hyper-acute nervous system, and the broader rejection of external expectations and stratification. I'd go more broadly and say rejection of imposed social mores and common codes, except that isn't true if it is natural for Gemini to accept a conventional, "live small, think small," conservative, and religiously-tinged life. For these people (quite a few), they look like practically avatars of community standards. But the rest, those who "think large, dream large," find themselves at serious odds with those around them, torn in two (<g>) directions.

For these, I'm beginning to think that Gemini's reputation for superficiality is because they can only connect to most other people if they "think small" and connect superficially. I've never thought of Sidereal Gemini as superficial, and yet I hear them addressed as that often enough, and seemingly for cause as occasion. I now think that this is for the reasons just stated.

Another phrase I've been toying with - Gemini's reaction to the world's way of thinking, and the world's reaction to Gemini's way of thinking if it's disclosed. The phrase is, "In what reality does that make any sense?" This disparity is most obvious in the many cases of genuine mental illness (Gemini is one of the two Sun-signs most prone to actual schizophrenia), but, on inspection, it seems generally true (in a healthy-normal range) for the typical Gemini.

Just some thoughts I'm playing with while reorganizing my Gemini notes.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 pm

PS - The current (and final) Dalai Lama does have a Leo Moon, unlike the Duke of Windsor's Aquarius Moon. He has a royal demeanor and upbringing respectful of traditions etc. in addition to his anti-Sagittarius Sun. However, that Moon is aligned closely with a Saturn-Neptune opposition, the aspect of abdication.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Debbie wrote:With 3 planets in Gemini (Sun-Mercury-Uranus) I can agree with your observations.
Jim Eshelman wrote:the most fundamental characteristic of Gemini as a whole is the social alienation, the being an alien in anything more than superficial society. (It may even be that the tendency to think of Gemini as superficial is that this is the only level at which they feel say around most other people.)
In large groups I remain superficial to avoid drama. I dislike pageantry, sentimentality and over-emotionalism. I prefer to watch at a distance then slowly choose my more intimate contacts, however I can befriend almost anyone on a light level. There is some sensitivity driving the aloofness that most people don't see.
My career was considered out of bounds for women for most of history. My politics are mixed up as I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative so no party appeals to me but I will vote for a rational moderate of either party.
Jim Eshelman wrote:"think large, dream large," find themselves at serious odds with those around them, torn in two (<g>) directions.
Torn is a good word, I am constantly mindful of my obligations while dreaming of far flung regions.
Jim Eshelman wrote:This reinforces the view that Geminis are essentially intuitive, i.e., that they come to a conclusion first, and build the logic leading to it afterwards.
Agreed, but I'm not sure if it is intuition or quick reasoning, easily stripping an idea down to basics and building an opinion from there, but I can justify most of my decisions even when they are whimsical.

I married a sentimental Sag who involves himself in everyone's business and wears his heart on his sleeve occasionally. We are learning from each other.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Thanks, Debbie. Yes, I'm using the word "intuitive" loosely - although I do think the whole Gemini-Libra-Aquarius is a best fit for Jung's Intuitive type.

I've been cranking for much of two days reframing the known facts of Gemini into a new presentation - not too far from done, I think. In most cases, the surprises were not from things I didn't know (but there were a few of those) but from how they were prioritized, framed, etc. The anti-Sagittarius side is so pronounced, but a bit of a challenge to state it as an affirmative rather than just in terms of what it is not - but I'm working on it. Should have something perhaps as soon as this afternoon.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:07 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:All the Geminis I know are afraid when first meeting people, that they won't be acceptable. Their ideas and opinions stay carefully put away, sometimes forever. Very afraid of being judged lacking, and that would hurt a lot. They aren't sure they're good enough.

All the Geminis I know are so concerned they will be alone they try to adapt to everyone who is willing to spend time with them. It takes them a long time to realize a relationship isn't making them happy, and if they are the ones ending it, it takes forever, and they are easily persuaded to "go out just as friends" or "I bought these tickets months ago" or "let's not spoil the holidays."

Tickets to musical theater, a concert, even in the park, or Karaoke are nearly irresistible to the Geminis I know. Most sing, and most play at least one instrument. They love to go out, and if their partner doesn't, they find a group of co-workers and friends to go out with. If they are home alone, they are on the phone, and texting as well as making calls, often far into the night even when they have to get up in the morning. Once children are mostly grown, most have dumped partners who don't like to go out.

Most of the Geminis I know who are over 45 have had tummy tucks, and many have decimated their retirement savings to do so.

Most whose children are adults have at least one who's moved back into the family home, and brought their partner. The attitude seems to be the children have demonstrated they can handle being on their own, so there's no rush for them to move back out.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:07 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:All the Geminis I know are afraid when first meeting people, that they won't be acceptable. Their ideas and opinions stay carefully put away, sometimes forever. Very afraid of being judged lacking, and that would hurt a lot. They aren't sure they're good enough.
That's broadly what I'm seeing, except there is a tendency of many of them to become downright warrior like in asserting truth as they see it - as if they were truth's own defenders. Easily perceive they are being judged or not accepted, and then usually either withdraw or tackle the point.
They aren't sure they're good enough.
I don't think that's it. I think they just don't want to put up with the judgments (and maybe don't trust themselves if unleashed).
All the Geminis I know are so concerned they will be alone they try to adapt to everyone who is willing to spend time with them. It takes them a long time to realize a relationship isn't making them happy, and if they are the ones ending it, it takes forever, and they are easily persuaded to "go out just as friends" or "I bought these tickets months ago" or "let's not spoil the holidays."
Consistent with those I know (give or take small details). - The following remarks on going out a lot do not fit most of them I know, but I think you were linking that specifically to not wanting to be alone, which is certainly a big theme.
Most whose children are adults have at least one who's moved back into the family home, and brought their partner. The attitude seems to be the children have demonstrated they can handle being on their own, so there's no rush for them to move back out.
I think this is more characteristic of the current generation of youngsters. They are known, as a group, to move back in - atypical of earlier generations.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu May 11, 2017 12:08 pm

Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:I think that's the typical pattern, and children moving out forever is only common in our parents generation and our grandparent's.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Gary903 » Fri May 19, 2017 12:10 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm
I'm seriously questioning the commonplace view that Sun in Gemini is essentially rational and driven by piercing reason. I know that I've fed this view, so I'm taking responsibility for questioning it in public.

I think it is better said that they are driven by reasons - and by the mobilization of reason and logic in a normal-healthy expression of the same traits that paranoids use reinforce and defend a particular point of view. This reinforces the view that Geminis are essentially intuitive, i.e., that they come to a conclusion first, and build the logic leading to it afterwards.

The anti-Jupiter (anti-Sagittarius) themes are every bit as strong as I've historically thought, and even stronger. In fact, the Geminis I personally know at this stage of my life have a pretty hard time existing in everybody else's world except in the most workaday sense. "What others expect of them" just doesn't make sense to them - this seems to feed the almost tantrum-like insistence on personal autonomy that I wrote about 35 years ago.

But, as a Virgo, I just can't see them as reasonable - using reason - in the sense of "collecting facts and then using the code of logic to reach a conclusion."

It seems to me that they are more driven by reasons than by reason.

And I really think - more than I gave voice to in the past - that the most fundamental characteristic of Gemini as a whole is the social alienation, the being an alien in anything more than superficial society. (It may even be that the tendency to think of Gemini as superficial is that this is the only level at which they feel say around most other people.)

So... throwing this out there. What do you think, based on first-person experience with Gemini?
I like this description of Gemini very much. It makes it very clear that Gemini and Virgo are not the same, even though both are Mercurial constellations. As Jim notes, a Virgo prefers to reason things through in order to arrive at a conclusion. A Gemini wants to grok big ideas ("grok" being a word coined by science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein, a Gemini, in his novel "Stranger in a Strange Land". It means to understand something immediately through intuition. Heinlein also said, "specialization is for insects."). But intuition isn't infallible, and Geminis can be completely wrong in some of their conclusions.
It is a little off-topic, but since Jim says that Gemini is a sign particularly prone to schizophrenia, it might be worth noting; The Ten of Swords card representing Sun in Gemini in Crowley's Thoth Tarot deck is titled "Lord of Ruin." Crowley wrote about this card, "It represents the logic of philosophers and lunatics and for the most part, it is reason divorced from reality."
Gŵyl loyw fu eu goleuaint.
"Their lights were a shining festival." ~ from the Welsh poem The Stars, "Y Sêr", by Dafydd ap Gwilym

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 12:18 pm

To be clear, I'm not saying that most Geminis are schizophrenic, or even schizotypal. The specific detail is that a large study of schizophrenic birthdates was done in England in the 1970s IIRC by one of England's leading psychiatric clinicians, theorists, and researchers. It found Tropical Pisces and Cancer far above everything else in frequency of Sun placement. This appears to translate to Sidereal Aquarius and Gemini.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 1:13 pm

Jim wrote:
This reinforces the view that Geminis are essentially intuitive, i.e., that they come to a conclusion first, and build the logic leading to it afterwards.
The most sensitive intuitive psychic I have ever worked with in my life was a Gemini. I did a-lot of good business with her—she would tell me high grossing movies which were ‘sleepers’ before the release date, and because they were sleepers, I could usually contract the movie at a much better price. She was a master with the Tarot. Note her Mercury cnj Uranus which was a huge plus with her rapid reason/logic working with her clients, and of course her Stellium in Gemini. Taurus Moon helped her trade as well.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat May 20, 2017 2:16 pm

Gary, apologies. I accidentally overwrite your post. (My fault: I'm still getting uyse to the different button locations on the new site, and the "edit" button is exactly where I'm used to clicking for "quote.")

PS - In deleting your post above (to avoid confusion) I noticed you had attached the chart you posted. I ask that people host images off site and link to them instead. Otherwise, the web server fills up much faster (and I pay the overage costs). Thanks!
Gary wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:02 pm
Jim: Didn't you once speculate on the old forum that if Pluto were truly exalted in any constellation it would be Gemini?
Yes. The key word, of course, is "if," because I don't see that we have anything important to gain from this (and, in this case, the un-Jupiter says almost everything we would want, and the triplicity seeps into the cracks of the rest).
Cyril Fagan apparently thought that the three outer planets were each exalted in the degree of the zodiac which they occupied at the beginning of the Lunar year 786 B.C. (-785 jul.), the Hypsomatic New Moon.
Yes. This would be the natural conclusion if one thought that actions in 786 BC actually created the hypsomata. I lean toward the opinion that it merely provided the opportunity to memorialize them.
However, when I do the chart for this event, the supposed value for the outer planets' exaltations turn out to be:
  • Uranus, 6°Sagittarius
  • Neptune, 16° Aquarius
  • Pluto, 2° Cancer. I can't believe Pluto could be exalted in the same constellation as Jupiter.
Yeah, me either. I don't think 786 BC had anything to do with causing exaltations. It would be a strange thing that a local event could rewrite the patterning of the entire universe like that :)

Similarly, Uranus is hardly consonant with Sagittarius (which is so Jupiter-like), and Neptune is hardly consonant with Aquarius (it being mostly opposite in nature to Uranus).
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by James Condor » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm

I have two friends with Sun in Gemini and to me they seem nothing like sun in Virgo. My brother and grandma are Virgos. Even in watching TV and movies I do not see it. I have said this before that I am really not convinced Gemini is Ruled by Mercury. What is the statistical correlation between Mercury and Gemini?

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:07 pm

James Condor wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm
What is the statistical correlation between Mercury and Gemini?
I'm not sure that's the right question. I think you are meaning to ask on what basis (shared character traits) Gemini and Mercury resemble each other.

Gemini and Virgo aren't going to be the same, even though both are Spokes, because Virgo is especially un-Neptune and un-Venus (being opposite Pisces), while Gemini is un-Jupiter (being opposite Sagittarius). Some of the most pronounced traits of the two groups come from these un-traits.

But here are some Sun in Gemini traits that are quite typical of Mercury:
  • HYPER-ACUTE NERVOUS SYSTEM, much nervous energy, physically active quick thinkers.
  • Speed shows diversely as a theme.
  • Keen sense of rhythm, mental and physical quick-ness, physical and psychological agility.
  • Versatile talents. Greatest dangers are dispersion, distraction, inattention, thus seeming irresponsible.
  • Substance abuse. Alcoholism, smoking, and other substance abuse to manage this acceleration.
  • Strongly driven by reason or, rather, by reasons: Marked by their own particular logic, justifications, and explanations (their distinctive modeling of facts).
    • Intuitive. Gets a conclusion first, and then mobilizes facts to substantiate it. Logic used to sustain a point of view rather than acquire one.
    • Truth-driven rather than reason-driven.
  • Irreligious and amoral. “Doubting Thomas,” skeptical, thus more “scientific” than “religious.”
  • Courageous, including the courage of convictions. Speaks own truth unhesitantly, even defiantly (as if serving as truth’s own warrior).
  • Feelings are a “sore point.” Harder to understand or deal with, more likely to break down their internal logic.
  • YOUTH. Has the most clear-cut orientation to youthful-ness and embodying a child-like nature.
    • Playful sense of humor helps convey youthfulness.
    • Particularly good at balancing humor and seriousness: No hard line between work and play.
    • Retain sense of youth into advanced age.
  • Instinct for free enterprise, trade, “doing business.”
  • Good at mechanical and technical things. Many engineers, information scientists, and educators.
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by James Condor » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:16 pm

Ah yes, I do remember seeing this post before. I think I have asked the question before. I suppose what I want to ask if there a statistical spike, or obvious factor that shows Mercury through every degree of Gemini? Like a graph. What if some degree(s) of the Sun in Gemini do not show a Mercury nature? Is that possible?

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:23 pm

I suppose what I want to ask if there a statistical spike, or obvious factor that shows Mercury through every degree of Gemini? Like a graph.[/quote]
I'm not sure how you would do this. What would you be measuring, exactly?
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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:24 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:23 pm
I'm not sure how you would do this. What would you be measuring, exactly?
I suppose he may be asking for a graph with the constellations or individual birth dates on one axis, along with the number of people born during the constellations or birth dates with observed "Mercurial" traits; where he'd like to see a spike on/around the dates of Gemini (and of course, Virgo). 🤔🤔

Gauquelin's data may be helpful, but I don't have access to it (plus it's a whole lot of data to handle and graph) and we need a clear "Mercurial" trait to avoid error.

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Re: Gemini - Reason or Reasons?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:30 pm

:twisted: Define "Mercurial traits" in a way that is somehow meaningfully related to tHe Gauquelin data
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