Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Q&A and discussion on Angularity.
UncleAries
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sun May 14, 2017 12:07 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 11:53 am
Take all the fires listed in SMA, calculate the most recent lunar ingress, and see how many have Mars or Saturn fit your criteria. Keep the Mars and Saturn totals separate from each other, and break them down one other way: Isolate those where Mars or Saturn is already foreground from those where Mars or Saturn is not. It should prove illuminating (that sample of charts rarely lets me down).
you mean if the recent lunar ingress already has mars or saturn angular in prime vertical mundoscope, ecliptical square to the asc, and square to mc in RA (east point west point) i dont include altitude conj. if it is present?

of course, i would never mention altitude conj. with meridian if the ingress or natal chart already has it angular in other frameworks?

one other thing for fire charts i want to ask you
when you say "recent lunar ingress" that means i can go back 3 lunar charts, for example if the event happened when the moon was in capricorn, and you used a non-dormant CANLunar ingress, i can use LIBLunar if i find altitude conjunctions with the meridian there and if i didnt find them in caplunar?

that means Liblunar is the most recent active lunar ingress?

are we on the same page?

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 14, 2017 12:14 pm

UncleAries wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 12:07 pm
you mean if the recent lunar ingress already has mars or saturn angular in prime vertical mundoscope, ecliptical square to the asc, and square to mc in RA (east point west point) i dont include altitude conj. if it is present?
Count it, but put it in a different box. I'm suggesting, count (using MA for "meridian altitude hit):

1. Mars MA, also angular
2. Mars MA, not angular
3. Saturn MA, also angular
4. Saturn MA, not angular

where "angular" is described (let's just use close orbs for this for this pass, I think) as within 3° of meridian or horizon in PV longitude, within 2° of square MC or Asc in longitude, and within 2° of Eastpoint-Westpoint in RA.
of course, i would never mention altitude conj. with meridian if the ingress or natal chart already has it angular in other frameworks?
It's better for an analytical break-down to have the distinction.
when you say "recent lunar ingress" that means i can go back 3 lunar charts, for example if the event happened when the moon was in capricorn, and you used a non-dormant CANLunar ingress, i can use LIBLunar if i find altitude conjunctions with the meridian there and if i didnt find them in caplunar?
No, since part of this is to determine whether this type of aspect overcomes dormancy, don't filter for dormancy. We can do that in the data analysis. Just take, literally, the immediately preceding lunar cardinal ingress.
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sun May 14, 2017 12:22 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 12:14 pm

No, since part of this is to determine whether this type of aspect overcomes dormancy, don't filter for dormancy. We can do that in the data analysis. Just take, literally, the immediately preceding lunar cardinal ingress.
i dont get it, the absence of "meridian altitude" hits dont prove anything, only their presence

can you please clarify this part? how will that help you determine if it overcomes dormancy, if you rejected the previously mentioned LibLunar ingress which had "meridian altitude" hits and nothing in other frameworks?

thats the last thing that bugs me, everything else im on the same page with you

Altitude conjunctions with the meridian are rare, their absence means nothing only their presence, it's so darn hard to prove their validity

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 14, 2017 12:33 pm

UncleAries wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 12:22 pm
i dont get it, the absence of "meridian altitude" hits dont prove anything, only their presence
I didn't say it did.
can you please clarify this part? how will that help you determine if it overcomes dormancy, if you rejected the previously mentioned LibLunar ingress which had "meridian altitude" hits and nothing in other frameworks?
I don't have time to write a bottom-up argument, especially because I'm clear what the confusion is. The question seems simple: Take the most recent cardinal lunar ingress prior to the event, and count those that have a Mars or Saturn hit, filtering these by whether there is a concurrent angularity of the same planet. It's a tight, narrow definition.
Altitude conjunctions with the meridian are rare, it's so darn hard to prove their validity
I hear you. There are things I won't be able to study and assess in SMA until we have at least 500 examples, and we're only now at about 300. This lets us analyze most things, but not everything.
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sun May 14, 2017 1:42 pm

wow, i am stunned at this

look at this, i checked most recent cardinal lunar ingress prior to the event

35 fire events in SMA database

the results

Great fire of london mars 1 01 orb
Ohio Stte Penitentiary saturn 47'
Winecoff hotel mars 11'
Niteroi circus mars 54'
Beverly hills supper saturn 20'
Cinema rex saturn 1 00 also angular
Friendship theater mars 50'
Kiss nightclub mars 51'
Kollam temple mars 44' saturn 22' both also angular
Paris metro saturn 30'
Griffith park saturn 32'
Oakland ghost ship saturn 21'

MAC = meridian altitude conjunction

1 hit Mars MAC, also angular
5 hits Mars MAC, not angular in other frameworks
5 hits Saturn MAC, not angular in other frameworks

2 hit Saturn MAC, also angular

10 new angularities from 35, 10/35

my oh my, this changes everything, we have to go back to the drawing board!?

this is getting real

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sun May 14, 2017 11:54 pm

i propose we call them Meridian Altitude Conjunction = MAC

because they can only be conjunct MC or IC, never opposite or square or other aspects any other angle or body

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by SteveS » Mon May 15, 2017 4:47 am

“MAC,” I like it, but I am not sure I completely understand what is exactly happening in the mundane sphere with these ‘altitude’ conjunctions to MC-IC. Solarfire offers as a definition for Z-Analogue Altitude:
Zodiacal analogue of altitude. The altitude of each point is expressed as a longitude. Altitudes from 0 to +90 correspond to 0 Aries to 0 Cancer, whereas altitudes from 0 to -90 degrees correspond to 0 Aries to 0 Capricorn.
Jim, Uncle, can you offer other words that may help me better understand the astronomy of “MAC?”

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 4:57 am

ill leave that to Mr Eshelman, the technical astronomical planetary dynamics side of it

all i know that they are rare, but not that rare

why do they work, beats me, like for example only campanus pv mundoscope works and not other mundoscopes like the placidian one,
what is important is that we determine that they are valid, having equal strenght to prime vertical, ecliptical squares to ASC and squares to MC aka east point west point in RA angularity framework, that means we are dealing with a new framework previously unknown to us if we can prove it, it changes everything, back to reinterpreting all charts

They are very time sensitive, especially when you have a sign of short ascension on the ASC to which the Midheaven is sensitive to, because they are linked, Mr Eshelman can explain better, also longitude and latitude of the locality (natal or mundane events) sensitivity comes into play,

for example you can lose MAC contacts in 3 min of time lets say, very time sensitive altitude is


everything is moving, nothing is still, and moving together at different velocities and angles

http://heavens-above.com/glossary.aspx?term=altitude
Last edited by UncleAries on Mon May 15, 2017 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by SteveS » Mon May 15, 2017 5:22 am

Uncle wrote:
all i know that they are rare, but not that rare.
I have been a keen student of the Great Depression, imo, it was, by far, the worst event to ever happen in US history. When I witness Saturn was 00,02 cnj the MAC with Boyd’s 1929 SSR, this combined with SMA’s 1929 Capsolar and Cansolar is the best astrological explanation I have ever discovered in my 39 years studying astrology for timing the beginning of the Great Depression. Sometime today, I will check to see how many times Saturn was cnj Boyd’s SSR MAC in the last 100 years, and eventually the entire history for Boyd’s SSR MAC. Thanks Uncle, your explanation/link helps me better understand.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 5:35 am

DORMANT EXAMPLES for location, not moving to capital

SMA V14 Hurricanes
Jupiter, the classic benefic planet, is on lunar
ingress angles in nearly all cases. We expect this
specific planet, specifically in lunar ingresses, for the mammoth amount of rain basic to the thundercloud-driven meteorological phenomenon of hurricanes.
Hurricane Sandy Hurricane D 2
Image
-----------------------------------------------
Typhoon Haiyan Hurricane D 2
Image
--------------------------------------------------
SMA V14 Floods
What distinguishes floods from every other type
of disaster studied is that the primary contributors
are the classic benefic planets. .... Saturn is the third strongest
planet in the list.....
Heppner flash flood Flood D 2
Image
----------------------------------------
Millennium Flood Flood D 2
Image
Last edited by UncleAries on Mon May 15, 2017 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by SteveS » Mon May 15, 2017 5:50 am

Jim, Uncle, it appears to me, MAC is a very important astronomical point acting offering par-excellent planetary symbolism for SMA/Sidereal charts. Jim, you are the only astrologer I know who will probably eventually work out the statistics for MAC.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 6:06 am

DORMANT EXAMPLES for location, not moving to capital

SMA v14 BOMB
Explosive Uranus shares overall activity
with violent Mars....... ......Neptune is quite involved...., but as a secondary factor reflecting the panic and confusion of the event and aftermath
Wall Street bombing Bomb D 1
Image
--------------------------------------------------
Oklahoma City bombing Bomb D 2
Image

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 15, 2017 6:33 am

Just to be clear... I'm not interested in charts and won't spend any time on this thread looking at them. I just want the raw numbers - no examples - just numbers.

I looked at where you started to present and saw you'd gone outside your own rules of 1°00'. Please don't. The tally is worthless unless it's done by exact rules.

Please just give me four numbers, that's all I need right now to start forming an opinion:

1. The total number in the sample.
2 The number of times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Mars IS otherwise angular.
3 The number of times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Mars IS NOT otherwise angular.
4 The number of times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Saturn IS otherwise angular.
5 The number of times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Saturn IS NOT otherwise angular.

I have too damn much to do, and too little time, to wade through examples when every single one of them is individually worthless. I need the bottom-line numbers.
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 6:37 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 6:33 am

Please just give me four numbers, that's all I need right now to start forming an opinion:

1. The total number in the sample.
the only one i dont understand, clarify this and will give you numbers

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 6:49 am

ok i think i understood you

here are the numbers, and i removed one case where the orb was
1 01

12 samples of mars and or saturn angularity

1 times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Mars IS otherwise angular.
4 times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Mars IS NOT otherwise angular.
1 times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Saturn IS otherwise angular.
4 times Mars is within 1° of MC or IC in altitude and Saturn IS NOT otherwise angular.

im a layman in statistics, but that looks splendid, this is not a fluke

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 am

Thank you. I'll look at these today (or, at least, in the next few days) and try to assess where this stands.

Meanwhile, I want to ask you something. Please stop posting these on the event threads. Let me explain why: We have hundreds of event examples that I've spent four years accumulating and coordinating them with demonstrated, proven methods. Anyone from outside this forum can come in and read them at any point (which is good), and draw conclusions about our approaches.

I need to be very careful that these threads do not have experimental or unsubstantiated claims in them unless there are careful caveats and explanations everyplace they appear. Right now, however promising (and I admit you have some solid single-case examples that most definitely push us to look further), this system is no more substantiated than if you had proposed looking at quintiles of Vulcan to the 5th house cusp. That is, everything is equally disbelieved until it is substantiated, and I've built my career on relying on nothing - nothing! - that hasn't been solidly demonstrated, and not even using anything in that category without caveat.

Please to not add any of these examples to anymore event threads. Let's test and substantiate the system itself first, okay?

I'm having a very hard time remaining civil with you right now. You appear to have come here in good faith to offer something you've discovered that just might turn out to be an important discovery, and I appreciate that. You ask for my help in validating this, ignore the instructions I give, violate your own rules... I''ll give a second chance, but maybe not a third. I have a ten-year investment in this forum, a 47 year investment in Sidereal astrology, and have just spent nearly a week of almost round-the-clock creating and stocking a new home for us and... first morning it's up and running and I wake up... I find someone posting unsubstantiated methodology all over threads that any ol' outside can come look at and assume that it's standard methodology without sufficient proof, and that makes us look very, very bad.

My blood pressure is through the roof (and my blood pressure is routinely stable). As mentioned, I'm having a very hard time being civil to you at all, and only my conviction that are pursuing something in good faith, from which we all may learn, lets me calm down a little (so far, just a little). I have too much to do in the next week and a half to fight with someone in order to protect this site from righteous ridicule. It undercuts the integrity of the last four year's work, as a minimum.

So stop it, already.

(Written as Mars crosses the eastern horizon here in Los Angeles. Now I have to go away and not look at this place for a while and figure out how I'm going to get real work done this morning the way I feel.)
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Mon May 15, 2017 7:38 am

clearly i caught you in a bad time

i wasnt aware that you worry outsiders reading unproven methods, on a second thought i should have kepts MAC's all in this thread and not have posted in mundane events forum..

im quite surprised, i didnt expect such a response
i dont feel i've done anything deserving this

ill alienate myself from the forum since i raise the blood pressure of the owner

cheers

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 15, 2017 7:52 am

UncleAries wrote:
Mon May 15, 2017 7:38 am
clearly i caught you in a bad time
I woke up feeling splendid and excited. Then I looked at Solunars.com.
i wasnt aware that you worry outsiders reading unproven methods, on a second thought i should have kepts MAC's all in this thread and not have posted in mundane events forum..
Every single post here speaks for all of us. It is our face to the world, and something on which we are collectively potentially judged. I feel personally responsible for every post here because I know that there are people who will simply label it, "what Eshelman's site is touting today." Every thread will usually be taken as the opinion of the whole site (which is why I comment on most things, to at least put them in perspective of a larger framework).

I want to explore this - I think you might really be on to something - and yes, please, let's keep it mostly to threads dealing with that experiment and exploration please?
im quite surprised, i didnt expect such a response
i dont feel i've done anything deserving this
I apologize if I have wronged you, and it's too soon for me to feel that I have. (Maybe later, k?)

After the last week and the last weekend - in particular, it really felt like I had a brand new lovely house I was planning to wake up in this morning and enjoy, and found that someone had broken in during the night and smeared ketchup on all the walls and broken some pictures. (I don't exaggerate here. That's truly how it feels right this minute.) I'll never get this morning back again.

{shag} it all, what have I ever done to deserve waking up in a beautiful new house I built with my own hands and enjoy it the first morning? Apparently nothing at all.

Back to work, eh?
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by SteveS » Tue May 16, 2017 1:06 am

Uncle, you may find this added confirmation you have indeed discovered an important astrological method with the MAC. Below is a chart of the Sept 20, 1941 Total Eclipse (pre-World War 11) located to Washington DC. Note the tight 180 of Mercury-Mars, which Jim has correlated as an aspect notorious for Declarations of War. MAC Mars 1,23 MC, MAC Neptune 0,50 IC. Yes, I know you don’t like orbs outside of 1 degree, but….damn impressive in my astrological mind.
Image

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:47 am

UncleAries wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:01 am
i hereby then propose a new tighter definition of Meridian Altitude Conjunctions (MAC) or we may even rename them later on

it goes like this

you need 2 factors to check in order to get angularity

1. you need at least 2 planets (never a single one) each on seperate side of meridian (1before 1after, or 1left 1 right side) in LONGITUDE!!! within 1 degree midpoint to the MC or IC

2. then you need those very same two or more planets to be conjunct the meridian in altitude z-analogue within 1 degree orb


this will probably remove at least 3/4 of all contacts if not more which makes sense, since MAC's are rare, we have standard angular frameworks which have higher frequency of angular hits, that's how it is suppose to be

this means in case of
Mt. Vesuvius
CAPSOLAR: Neptune -1
CANSOLAR: Saturn +2, Mars +2 Moon -1
CAPLUNAR: Mercury 0

we are left with only
CANSOLAR: Saturn +2, Mars +2 !!

and this
viewtopic.php?p=10269#p10269
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:15 pm


That's too bad for this current example in particular, because there were (literally) killer MAC contacts with both the Caplunar and Arilunar. Both had a Saturn-Pluto "conjunction" right on MC for Washington. This fits more or less every detail of the last week's events. For example, the Caplunar has altitudes of 27°43' for MC, 27°55' for Pluto, and 27°58' for Saturn. That's impressive! Except... we can't rely on it, because actual observed results have only been right about half the time. We don't get an easy answer from this one.
we have the angularity in the CAPLUNAR and not in the arilunar by the new definition!!!

this means MAC's are angular altitude meridian parallels (AMP?)
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:53 am
(I was going to do a spot test of the Fires on your new definition, until I read it further. I can't do it from the collated data, and would have to recalculate every damn chart all over again, and in a more complicated form than I did before. I'm not going to do that.)
i would like to do it when i have time
all in need is a list of mac contacts present in solar and lunar igresses that are otherwise not present in other frameworks

basically what hits did you find and where, dont need the scores

could you suply that in crude form, copy pase from your data maybe?

thanks for your previous responses

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:13 am

I'm doing my best not to publish any of the actual numbers until the entire process is done in a few months :( . It would take me about an hour or two to compile the list you requested from the stuff already tabulated (I have to filter it from four other concurrent studies done in parallel - it actually takes more time to remove the scores that you don't want).
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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:57 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:53 am
one question, why do you have to recalculate every chart?[/

dont you save your ingresses (4 solar 4 lunar) of every catalog event?
No. Too much storage and complexity. I look at them and delete them. (I have the data I want copied off elsewhere, e.g., chart ratings to a spreadsheet, aspect and angularity to Word files, etc.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:56 am

Still takes time away from the projects he's working on, although I doubt he's saving what now amounts to four or five charts per event. If you want to know what he's doing, go look here:
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=512&p=3265
That's just a start. :cry:

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by SteveS » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:57 am

UncleAries wrote:
I've been playing with altitude conjunctions with the meridian close to a year now, and i've noticed any planet conjunct MC and IC (meridian) in altitude within 1-degree orb using solar fire's z-analogue altitude gives perfect symbolism, meaning de facto angularity and additional conjunction aspects.
I agree! I have been looking at several severe financial situations with historical DOW and have noticed excellent mundane planetary symbolism for altitude conjunctions with MC & IC. I also believe these altitudes conjunctions needs to be included with Genethlical Astrology for significant impact. I am not saying these altitude conjunctions are more potent than standard angular MC/IC impact, but nevertheless—significant.

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Re: Altitude conjunctions with the meridian (MC and IC)

Post by UncleAries » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:09 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:56 am
Still takes time away from the projects he's working on, although I doubt he's saving what now amounts to four or five charts per event.
my method of renaming the ingresses and saving them after they are calculated will still save him time even when making monthly prognostications.

for example he could have renamed and saved chart for washington dc in august in the following form:
Aug 5, 2017 DC caplunar
Aug 12, 2017 DC arilunar.... and so on

then saving them in a new file lets say SMA august prognostication, solar file enables you to sort you charts alphabetically, then file order, date wise, reverse chart names and descending sort order.

You just have to name them properly for software to sort them to your liking, all august ingresses must be in this format named:

month day year (if you want them sorted nicely) for easy reopening.

the benefits are obvious, everyting is much easier and faster, never have to recalculate again
SteveS wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:57 am
UncleAries wrote:
I've been playing with altitude conjunctions with the meridian close to a year now, and i've noticed any planet conjunct MC and IC (meridian) in altitude within 1-degree orb using solar fire's z-analogue altitude gives perfect symbolism, meaning de facto angularity and additional conjunction aspects.
I agree! I have been looking at several severe financial situations with historical DOW and have noticed excellent mundane planetary symbolism for altitude conjunctions with MC & IC. I also believe these altitudes conjunctions needs to be included with Genethlical Astrology for significant impact. I am not saying these altitude conjunctions are more potent than standard angular MC/IC impact, but nevertheless—significant.
steve, there's been a change in definition of MAC's.

read above

(btw i made a mistake in Mt. Vesuvius cansolar, mars and saturn are in midpoint to the ecliptical square to the ascendant and not meridian, i apologize, therefore no angularity unless midpoint to angular points also work, square asc, square mc)

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