I KNOW THAT KINETIC LUNARS CAN BE APPLIED TO THE SSR MOON
ARE THEY ALSO APPLICABLE FOR THE NATAL MOON... IN YOUR VIEW?
General Discussion on Solar & Lunar Returns matters for which a specific forum does not exist
15 posts • Page 1 of 1
Dec 04, 2008 3:56 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:I've never Kinetic Returns applied to the SSR Moon. Only to Secondary Progressions of the natal Moon.
So yes - it's a minor chart compared to others, but the KLR does have its place.
Dec 05, 2008 12:33 pm
StarAgeWiz wrote:I've found when the primary Solunars fail to describe an event (symbolism) for the native the Kinetic Lunar for the natal will.
I do use the Kinetic Lunar for the SSR with generally better results than the Anlunars.
Janus 4.1 calculates the Kinetic Lunars accurately.
Dec 05, 2008 3:35 pm
SteveS wrote:Kay Calvendar, a siderealist told me Fagan stated near the end of his life the Kinetic Lunar was of equal importance, if not more important that the natal lunar. I have very little experience working with the Kinetic Returns and I am guessing most other siderealist have little experience as well. Kay told me Fagan stated his beliefs on the Kinetic in one of the Spica Journals by Firebrace.
Jim--can you confirm this? Does anyone have and read most of the Spica Journels?
Dec 05, 2008 4:09 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:My old Spicas have been in storage or lost for decades. Maybe out in the garage somewhere, maybe not.
On the tests I've done with Kinetic Lunars against my standard event test group, they were less important than the standard SLR (which is unsurpassed by anything). However, the Kinetics did pretty well. In particular, if there's a major progression coming to fruition, the KLR can definitely bring it to a head.
(Edited 12/7 to conform to what I posted later about relative importance.)
Dec 06, 2008 10:30 am
SteveS wrote:Jim, I would have to agree with your research/thoughts on the KLR. I have done very little research with KLR’S but have some speculative thoughts. A couple of years ago I had a KLR with a Paran and very appropriate symbolism occurred-- but only on a psychological/emotional level. Since this was my only direct experience with a KLR, I simplified a study guideline for me by scanning KLR’S on an annual basis and looking for KLR’s with tight angular/aspects. So far none have appeared.
On the other hand, I have seen many cases when the primary standard SLR has timed the month with events symbolized by the SSR. In trying to deduce guidelines for my own purposes by comparing the SLR with the KLR, the SLR is definitely ‘more powerful in immediate effect’ pertaining to events than the KLR. Maybe a better way of stating this is the KLR is effective but on a lower potency level vs. the SLR.
Bradley stated in ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’: “Lunar returns, while more powerful in immediate effect, are subservient to the preceding solar return.” My astrological experience has proven to me there is a ton of truth in Bradley’s statement pertaining to the standard SLR. But in my mind this raises another important question: Is the Anlunar just as important as the SLR when applying Bradley’s above quote?? The standard answer to this question among siderealist seems to be—at times the Anlunar works and at times it doesn’t. It would seem to me the Anlunar should be more ‘subservient’ to the SSR than the SLR—since the Anlunar is the actual Moon of the SSR and the SLR is the Moon of the Natal---but I know this is not the case. How the hell do we distinguish these other lunars from the standard SLR?? I would welcome other opinions or guidelines.
Dec 06, 2008 2:01 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:The usual rule-of-thumb (pretty crude, but it makes the point) is that if you have a good SSR then a bad SLR won't hit as hard and a good SLR will be great; while, in a year with a bad SSR, a good SLR will take some pressure off while a bad SLR will drag you deep. Perhaps you can think of the SSR as the base-line of the year (in conjunction with the exceedingly important elements of straight transits and Secondary Progressions of the natal), and SLR influences dance above and below that SSR base line. - In any case, since "good vs. bad" isn't always the whole show, look for recurring symbolism and repetition in both.SteveS wrote:Bradley stated in ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’: “Lunar returns, while more powerful in immediate effect, are subservient to the preceding solar return.”
The Anlunar has always seemed to me to be a very weak chart, possibly the weakest of all the 'semi-main' ones. However, it does seem more targetted - specifically, on bringing (foreground or non-foreground) SSR factors into primacy for a limited period of time. Bradley suggested (and I've seen this happen frequently enough to make a big point of it in my SSR book) that the Anlunar identified which SSR elements were coming into their own for a few weeks, and especially helped filter which SQ and PSSR crossings were of the greatest importance during that month.Is the Anlunar just as important as the SLR when applying Bradley’s above quote??
For example, my current SSR has transiting Jupiter on the Descendant. I already had the benefit of the Venus transits across that Descendant and Jupiter. But my Anlunar December 3 had transiting Jupiter (conjoined to Venus) on the Midheaven (along with s. Mars on the Descendant and some other stuff). If I wanted to take the time, I could now look for SQ and PSSR crossings over the next month and cherry pick the Jupiter days for a three-stacked whopper of a pleasant day.
How do you know this isn't the case? I suppose I don't know what you mean by 'subservient.' The Anlunar does seem to be in direct service to the SSR in the way it filters precision SSR manifestations into time slots.It would seem to me the Anlunar should be more ‘subservient’ to the SSR than the SLR—since the Anlunar is the actual Moon of the SSR and the SLR is the Moon of the Natal---but I know this is not the case.
In practice? Mostly I just ignore them. I've almost never known anything important to be lost by ignoring them. There are nuances and subtleties, and they can be included when high precision pre-checking of a date is being done, but mostly I just ignore them.How the hell do we distinguish these other lunars from the standard SLR??
Dec 06, 2008 7:53 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:I had time to look up the figures, and I see that I misremembered. Actually, the Kinetics did pretty well - it was just the Anlunar (taken by itself) that ranked very poorly.Jim Eshelman wrote:On the tests I've done with Kinetic Lunars against my standard event test group, they were quite minor compared to the standard SLR (which is unsurpassed by anything other than straight transits). The KLR, if I recall correctly, came in a little weaker than Tertiaries.
FWIW and not taking time to go into too much qualitative explanation (just numerical / qualitative), here are the scores of tested techniques in my standard ~20 test charts. These scores were compiled a couple of decades ago from the test set. Don't worry, at the moment, what the actual scores mean (that's a long answer) - mostly just see the rankings and which techniques fall at the same score range. This table lists what my objective testing shows to be the relative significance of various predictive techniques.
Here are all the scores above 1.5 (that is, they averaged to at least 'adequate'). As a comparison the Tropical Solar Return scored at 1.4. The Anlunar scored at 1.0 (just above the Q1 variant of the SNQ).
2.3 - Sidereal Lunar Return (SLR)
2.2 - Sidereal Solar Return (SSR) plus transits to it
2.1 - PSSR & Q2 & SNQ2 taken together (i.e., on the theory that at least one would show the event)
1.9 - PSSR & SNQ2 taken in tandem; Kinetic Solar Return (KSR); Kinetic Lunar Return (KLR); Sidereal Solar Return (SSR
1.7 - Transits to natal; Solar Arc Directions; Enneads
1.6 - Secondary Progressions; Primary Angles (birthplace); Transits to Tertiary Progressions
1.5 - Local Natal Angles; PSSR; SNQ2; Tertiary Progressions
Dec 07, 2008 9:20 am
SteveS wrote:Thanks Jim for taking the time to post your thoughts pertaining to the different lunars and your rating research. I have copied and put in my ‘very important’ astrological file.
Much Regards, Steve
Dec 07, 2008 11:06 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:Here's a good example of a Kinetic Lunar Return.
On June 12, 1950, 24-year-old Margaret Edens was struck and killed by a train at 7:27 AM in Fullerton, CA. Her KLR had occurred May 28 and is given below:
Can you say "death by vehicular accident"?
Transiting Mercury conjoins progressed Mars on the Ascendant. This is opposite progressed Saturn on the Descendant. (Notice that the Mars-Saturn it isn't close enough to count as a progressed aspect, but plenty close enough to count in a return chart!) Transiting Pluto squares the KLR Ascendant, progressed Mars, transiting Mercury, and (partile) progressed Ascendant. The aspect of progressed Mars on progressed Descendant is shown and brought to the fore.
Progressed Jupiter is also implicated in all of this. It's meaning isn't clear to me. It's main including aspect would be transiting Mercury square progressed Jupiter.
Dec 07, 2008 12:10 pm
SteveS wrote:Steve stated:
It would seem to me the Anlunar should be more ‘subservient’ to the SSR than the SLR—since the Anlunar is the actual Moon of the SSR and the SLR is the Moon of the Natal---but I know this is not the case.Jim, I see what you mean by your above question: I actually don’t know if the Anlunar is just as ‘subservient’ to the SSR as the SLR! I have primarily worked with just the SLR for pinpointing ‘time slots’ when the symbolism of the SSR would manifest. I have always tried to stick primarily to book teachings from Fagan and his colleagues. Since most of their writings on lunars pertain to the standard SLR, I have paid little attention to the Anlunar or KLR. I interpret Bradley’s word ‘subservient’ as meaning when we see similar symbolism on a SLR as the SSR then there is high probability the SLR will time the ‘time slot’ when the symbolism of the SSR will manifest. I have seen enough cases where I know this is true. However now, I think I will pay more attention to Anlunars pertaining to your statement: “The Anlunar does seem to be in direct service to the SSR in the way it filters precision SSR manifestations into time slots.” I take this to mean we need to run out all of the 1 year SLR’S and Anlunars, looking for foreground angular symbolism that is similar to SSR symbolism, in order to pinpoint possible ‘time slots’ for manifestations. In other words, if the SLR’S show no angular symbolism matching the SSR but an Anlunar does show similar angular symbolism—then we go with the Anlunar and its ‘time slot’ for manifestation. If we get similar SSR symbolism on both a SLR and an Anlunar, in different ‘time slots’, then we have to allow the possibility for the same SSR manifestations to occur in both ‘time slots’.Jim asked:
How do you know this isn't the case? I suppose I don't know what you mean by 'subservient.' The Anlunar does seem to be in direct service to the SSR in the way it filters precision SSR manifestations into time slots.
Dec 07, 2008 3:17 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:My current SSR has Jupiter on the Descendant and Pluto on the Westpoiont. It has a Moon-Neptune conjunction square Venus, close and important but not foreground. It has a Mars-Jupiter potential paran (Jupiter rise, Mars MC) with a 0°10' orb.
Therefore, in looking at a year's worth of Anlunars and Demi-Anlunars, I might especially be interested when these were to be brought into attention. I'd check the normal and demi but, for sake of the example, I'll just use the full Anlunar.
My December 3 Anlunar has Jupiter on the Midheaven.
My December 30 Anlunar has the Moon-Neptune conjunction setting and s. Venus on the IC.
There are others which have similar indications, or mixtures, with lesser orbs or less clear-cut symbolism, but these are the two best examples.
So, for the four weeks beginning December 3, I might look for SQ and PSSR crossings of Jupiter. The SQ begins December 3 with Midheaven 29 Aries and Ascendant 3 Leo. Neither is going to hit Jupiter during the month. (I did a quicky estimation of the PSSR, and it won't either.) Skip that.
For the month beginning December 30, I'd look for times when 24°-26° Rim would be on the angles (the placement of the Moon-Neptune-Venus). The Anlunar month begins with SQ MC and Asc at 25 Hub - neither will rotate 60° in the month, so we skip this, too.
OK, so nothing came of those, but they were passable examples anyway
Let's try this: The Demi-Anlunar January 12 has transiting Jupiter on the Descendant, paralleling the SSR itself. Then, 13 days later, the SQ brings s. Jupiter exactly to the IC. That would be expected to be an ultra-Jupiter day, singling out that particular quotidian crossing for 'something special.'
Dec 08, 2008 11:08 am
SteveS wrote:I see what you mean Jim. Since Anlunars and KLR’S are very low on your priority list with your astro analysis, I think I will personally take note of them, as a possible support learning tool, ONLY when I see foreground (the tighter-the better) partile aspects/parans. This would be following your same teachings with SSR’S, however I will not expect these particular lunars to produce a stand alone ‘outstanding incident’---unless maybe timing a ‘time slot’ from other priority charts—particularly symbolism from the current SSR. Thanks Jim-- your discussion on this matter has helped me remove a-lot of mental fog pertaining to the various lunars.
Jim—I have Solarfire version 5.0 which allows me, by selecting ‘advanced and ingress’ category, to calculate all the yearly Anlunar’s in a flash and quickly see if they are offering any configurations for my personal parameters. Does your later version of Solarfire allow you to do the same flash calculations with the KLR’S?
StarAge—does your Janus 4 program allow you to quickly calculate all the yearly KLR’S with one mouse click--- or do you have to calculate them one at a time?
Dec 08, 2008 11:40 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:There isn't a DIRECT calculation for Kinetic Returns, but there is a trick that can get you within a minute or two (close enough for most work).SteveS wrote:Jim—I have Solarfire version 5.0 which allows me, by selecting ‘advanced and ingress’ category, to calculate all the yearly Anlunar’s in a flash and quickly see if they are offering any configurations for my personal parameters. Does your later version of Solarfire allow you to do the same flash calculations with the KLR’S?
Create a Displayed Points list called "Sun" that has only the Sun in it, and one called "Moon" that has only the Moon in it. Also, if you don't already have it, create an Aspect Set called HARM01 (for "1st Harmonic") that has only conjunctions, and one called HARM02 (for "2nd harmonic") that has only conjunctions and oppositions.
Then run Dynamic > Transits & Progressions. Select your local and time frame as always. In the middle column, only check "Transits to Progressed." Under Point Selection, pick your 'Sun" or "Moon" point selection for everything. Under "Aspect Selection," pick HARM01 if you only want the conjunction return or HARM02 if you want to include the Demis. (Be sure the progression rate is set at Q2 before you start.)
BTW, after you set this up, you can save it. - Anyway, what you're doing is getting a list of the dates and times of all conjunctions (and optionally oppositions) of transiting Moon to progressed Moon. This calculation routine is not quite as accurate as the return calculationg routine, but (in anything I've seen) is within a minute or two. You can always fine-tune it manually.
But here's the time consuming part: For any of these returns that you think deserves a closer look, you need to run a progressed chart of the natal for the moment of the KLR. (The inner ring of a KLR has progressed planets, not natal planets.) If you're spot checking, this is easier since you can run one progressed chart and know where everything but the Moon is for the year to the nearest degree... and the KLR itself always has the correct position of progressed Moon.
POSTSCRIPT Actually the last step is way easier than I thought. When you have the Dynamic Events Report up (the list of KLR dates), click "View Chart" and it will immediately display a two-ring wheel of the KLR with progressed planets on the inner ring!
Dec 09, 2008 10:49 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:That's probably why he didn't get very impressive results
Kinetics based on the Q1 just don't work. (Go ahead and try them - they are seriousl unimpressive.)
Of course, when the SSR Moon is considered (I'd call this the Kinetic Anlunar Return), the Q1/Q2 issue doesn't meaningfully intervene. The time period is too short.
Thanks for pointing out that usage. I haven't opened the Primer in at least 25 years. (I do, however, know where my copy is on the shelf!)
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