The PSN - New progression system to test

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 6:27 am

Wow, quite an example. - Sorry to hear about the hassle, of course; but it is indeed a good example. (None of the other quotidians showed anything?)
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am

Jim wrote:
(None of the other quotidians showed anything?)
Exactly Jim, you have indeed discovered a very important new progressed system. I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 7:21 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am
I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?
I understand the confusion because there isn't an easy, straightforward way of calculating it. Also, at first I thought that this "averaging" way of calculating it was only going to be off by 1-2°, but I've now seen some examples where it appears to be off more than that, in one case as much as 5°. It is complicated further because one of the ways I have used it in Solar Fire seems to have a program bug, since I calculate the same thing two ways and get unrelated answers... still trying to figure that out.

The confusion is I our not having the right tools... which has always been the case with the PSSR.

Here is one sure thing I can say: The angles will be PRECISELY those for your PSSR, if the PSSR is calculated by mean rate instead of apparent rate. This is really the definition of the whole thing: The Progressed Sidereal Natal (PSN) is exactly the Progressed Sidereal Solar Return (PSSR), run uninterruptedly through your whole life, applied to the natal instead of your current SSR. The way to see if the "averaging" from birth is a little off is to calculate for the PSSR and know that these are the real angles.

The technique I recommended to "true" these to each other is to calculate the PSN to the moment of your SSR. Your current SSR MC is 19°10' Aries (RA MC 41°40'). Calculating your PSN for September 20, 2016, 3:32:51 AM CDT, I get MC 17°30' Aries (RAMC 39°04').

Simple way to look at it: The calculated MC is 1°40' earlier than it should be, so add 1°40' to the MC throughout the year. This, though, is not really a consistent figure, because the MC doesn't advance in longitude at the same rate it does in RA, and it's the RA figure we really need; but, for most work, it's close enough. The more complete way to look at it: The RA of the MC, in the sample above, is 2°36' early, and that's what would stay most consistent throughout the year. (There are still some other complication, but no big ones.)

(I did these examples for Albertville for convenience. Now moving to Springville.)

[Read the following slowly, with real examples in front of you. It is numerically dense and not easy to follow.]

So... let's apply this to May 18, 2017, 7 PM, Springville, AL. Fastest way to get angles is to run the system on your SSR. It gives MC 12°44' Aquarius, Asc 1°32' Gemini. Most importantly (for the fine points) is that RA of MC (from the Reports button) is 339°23'.

If I calculate the same to your natal chart, I get what you got - slightly earlier angles. We can approximate the right answer by adding the 1°40' difference in longitude, and we get a pretty close answer - gives an MC of 12°36', which is only a few minutes different from what I calculate from the SSR. (The calculation from the SSR is what we want.) Notice that Asc 1°32' Gemini, MC 12°44' Aquarius, is still close to the Sun, Mars, and Uranus, just not as to-the-minute precise as in the chart you gave above,

Here's the real check, though: The RA MC difference between your SSR and the PSN to the moment of your SSR was 2°36'. I think this should be a stable RA difference throughout the year. Is it? The RAMC of the PSN-from-natal to last night is 336°47', and the RAMC of PSN/PSSR-from-SSR is 339°23', or 2°36' later, exact to the minute as it should be.

So... this tells me that the "ST of the SSR, minus ST of PSN for the moment of the SSR" (difference in RA MC) gives a stable value throughout the current SSR year.

Practical Take-Away #1" If you want to confirm the exact angles, run them from the SSR. This is what the angles run from the natal should be.

Practical Take-Away #2: MC difference (SSR MC, minus MC of PSN calculated for moment of SSR) is a good approximation throughout the year, though the difference is RA of MC is the better way to check, rather than difference in longitude of MC.

Practical Take-Away #3: This would be soooooooooooooo much easier with the right software tools!
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 7:50 am

Thanks Jim, the phone call I received was so important to me, it makes me believe the triple paran of Sun-Mars-Uranus is reflecting precise true angles. But, if I understand with the known different ways with Sidereal Astrology for progressing angles, the above angles cannot be true, correct?

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 7:51 am

Unless I have totally misconstrued the nature of the technique, the average ones you calculated cannot be true. However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 8:01 am

Coincidentally, Marion had an important phone call last night at 6:30 PM to 7:00 PM (but two hours away in time zone) that left her relieved and rejuvenated after a few days of feeling physically down. Taken by itself, this example would also (like yours) have me wondering if the pure mean rate (unmodified PSN calculated for the birth chart) was correct, which seems bizarre.

If I go the extra steps to get the angles just right, we get MC 24°56' Virgo, Asc 6°16' Sagittarius. Sure, the MC is partile square transiting Pluto, and that's fine enough for a psychological transformation of her point of view that shifted things.

But the pure "average" rate - just applying the PSN rate to her local natal, without trying to correct it - gives MC 19°57' Virgo, conjunct t Jupiter at 18°56' Virgo, opposite Venus at 18°22' Pisces. This looks so much more like the psychological relief, phone call with a close friend, etc. that I watched happening. Is it (like your example) a coincidence, or is there something I'm missing?
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 am

Jim wrote:
However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.
Exactly, I thoroughly understand. The phone call last night has already prompted 2 more phone call to others, discussing what course of plan(s) I should consider as options. Thanks Jim.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 4:59 am

Mr. E., does this procedure accurately create the correct PSN?

1. Calculate the PSSR as usual. Make note of the MC.

Example using JFK: MC is Libra 26:01 at Dallas.

2. Using the prescribed User Progression rate, find the Mean Rate approximation of the PSN.

JFK has MC of Scorpio 01:07 and a Derived Progression Date of July 27, 1917 01:40 UT.

3. Bring up View Chart. Among the buttons on the right side, locate and select Rectify. The Rectify Assist panel appears .

4. You can rectify by date, time, MC or Asc. In the MC box, enter the PSSR MC Libra 26:01 ("26Lib01").

5. Press OK.

6. The corrected PSSR is presented,

7. In tri-wheels, do not show the angles from this chart. Because of precession, this Asc will differ from that of the PSSR.

With your experience, does this give correct results? I only came across this thread yesterday, so there may be some nuance I skipped over.

-Derek

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 5:11 am

Notice this arrangement:

PSSR ASC: CAP 08:00
PNR SUN: CAN 09:50
PNR SAT: CAN10:29
PNR NEP: CAN 10:58

This is more significant than the Mean PSSR Asc of about CAP 14°.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 5:16 am

Mr. E., has your spreadsheet been migrated yet, that calculates both the PSSR and SQ?

-Derek

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon May 29, 2017 8:46 am

Jim's PSSR spreadsheet.

One of the first things migrated. :) We really tried to get everything, even on the compressed schedule. Sometimes Dani or I can retrieve things that went poof before we could get to them, but that's a VERY long shot. If you are missing something, it's worth asking, but unlikely and getting more and more unlikely as time goes on.

BTW, try the new search function. It's amazing and fast.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 9:53 am

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 4:59 am
Mr. E., does this procedure accurately create the correct PSN?
I'm on the road this week, often outside of even cell signal range (literally on the road, i.e., road trip and deep forest most of the week). Though I have a computer packed, almost all access to the site will be by the phone, and perhaps infrequent.

So, without sitting down and walking through this myself, I'm going to say: Yes, that looks quite right. In essence you've calculated a PSSR, you've calculated a mean PSN by the estimation rate (as a stand-alone chart), and you've used the Rectify button to get the estimated PSN exactly right. (If the angles match, the chart matches.)

The simple concept is, "What if the PSSR ran non-stop from the birth chart instead of only from the current SSR?" We still IMHO have to settle the question of the mean vs. apparent rate (perhaps you've settled it in your mind :) but I never really challenged-and-checked Fagan's original assertion, so I find I should check that now... and so far, most of the examples I actually check are better than for mean rate than apparent. But that doesn't amount to nearly enough examples, so I'm far from settled!)

There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works :)
1. Calculate the PSSR as usual. Make note of the MC. ...
2. Using the prescribed User Progression rate, find the Mean Rate approximation of the PSN.

JFK has MC of Scorpio 01:07 and a Derived Progression Date of July 27, 1917 01:40 UT.
The problem I have with this is that it's a lot of work to get back to the derived progression rate, at least with Solar Fire. If I use e.g. the progression tool, the final chart says something like "Progression for November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM CST, Dallas, TX." It doesn't display the derived progression date anywhere I can see. Of course, I could calculate this date without Solar Fire, with a spreadsheet e.g., though that's more work.
3. Bring up View Chart. Among the buttons on the right side, locate and select Rectify. The Rectify Assist panel appears,

4. You can rectify by date, time, MC or Asc. In the MC box, enter the PSSR MC Libra 26:01 ("26Lib01").

5. Press OK.

6. The corrected PSSR is presented,
This works if you've calculated a stand-alone chart, not if you've calculated a progressed chart (where the Rectify button is disabled).
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 10:40 am

Thanks, JSAD. I have that spreadsheet, and use it for individual PSSRs. Was just wondering if it survived for other users'sake.

I will try the new search function. Glad to know it's better than before.

-Derek

other "Jupiter Sets at Dawn" wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 8:46 am
Jim's PSSR spreadsheet.

One of the first things migrated. :) We really tried to get everything, even on the compressed schedule. Sometimes Dani or I can retrieve things that went poof before we could get to them, but that's a VERY long shot. If you are missing something, it's worth asking, but unlikely and getting more and more nunlikely as time goes on.

BTW, try the new search function. It's amazing and fast.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 10:54 am

I knew the new Search function was better, but hadn't seen how many loops I could send it through. It does have a great deal of the Google-like flexibility, including the ability to filter out content with the minus sign. For example, just using the simple search window (there is a lot more in the advanced search!), if I drop in PSSR I immediately get at the top most posts in this present PSN thread, so, I filter that out (say I don't want anything that mentions PSN) with:

Code: Select all

PSSR -PSN
This still has 110 matches, so, if I'm looking for where the spreadsheet is, I might guess:

Code: Select all

PSSR -PSN Excel
This brings it down to 10 matches and I find it in a couple of seconds.

Quotes don't seem operative, though. The following three variations produce the same list of 161 matches (all looking for the coexistence of the two words):

"Cyril Fagan"
Cyril Fagan
"Fagan Cyril"
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon May 29, 2017 11:09 am

If you take the ST of your next Solar Return and subtract the ST of your current SR, add 24 and divide by 24.00093, and plug that in as the progression rate to progress your Solar Return in Solar Fire, what kind of chart do you get?

Did you all know Solar FIre holds on the last few progression rates you used and you can pick one when you're actually calculating a chart, so if you forgot to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way? The choices last even if you told Solar Fire to save the current settings on closure.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 11:14 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 9:53 am
Though I have a computer packed, almost allaccess to the site have to settle the question of the mean vs. apparent rate (perhaps you've settled it in your mind :) but I never really challenged-and-checked Fagan's original assertion, so I find I should check that now... and so far, most of the examples I actually check are better than for mean rate than apparent. But that doesn't amount to nearly enough examples, so I'm far from settled!)

I'm with you on that! No, I haven't decided on apparent vs. mean. It bugs me immensely that some methods (as usually taught) are one or the other.
There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works :)

What's NOT awkward about the PSSR? 😕
The problem I have with this is that it's a lot of work to get back to the derived progression rate, at least with Solar Fire. If I use e.g. the progression tool, the final chart says something like "Progression for November 22, 1963, 12:30 PM CST, Dallas, TX." It doesn't display the derived progression date anywhere I can see. Of course, I could calculate this date without Solar Fire, with a spreadsheet e.g., though that's more work.
Yes, I saw this issue, and the next about the disabled button too. As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.

-Derek

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 11:18 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:09 am
If you take the ST of your next Solar Return and subtract the ST of your current SR, add 24 and divide by 24.00093, and plug that in as the progression rate to progress your Solar Return in Solar Fire, what kind of chart do you get?
Without trying it, I think it is this: I think SF rate is per year, and you want the result in terms of days. So (just thinking it through, not trying anything) you'd have to take this rate and divide it by the (mean or actual - experiment to see if the mean is sufficiently accurate) number of days in a Sidereal year (or in your Sidereal year) and then you'd have the right rate.
Did you all know Solar FIre holds on the last few progression rates you used and you can pick one when you're actually calculating a chart, so if you forgot to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way?
Did not know, and that might get me to experiment with more than one at a time :)
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 11:24 am

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:14 am
There are some awkwardnesses in your approach IMHO, but I agree that it looks like it actually works :)

What's NOT awkward about the PSSR? 😕
It would be quite cool if it turned out to be that mean rate is best, because it makes calculation within a tiny range of error a snap. (My ideal would be to find a method that never required you to calculate the next SSR. That, more than any other thing, has me not using the PSSR when I could.) That would still leave up to 2-3° error at the end of the birthday year in more extreme cases.

But, of course, one needs not to prejudice one's reading of the examples by wishing for a method that is easy to calculate LOL.
As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.
Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer. The challenge is finding the right constant, and thinking it through without experimentation hasn't given quite the right answer. I used 0.003430114 but I think there's a factor I'm not considering, and it's too hard to tweak on the road.
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 11:33 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:09 am
Did you know ... {mangled the edit} ... to write one down and didn't save the calculations, you can often retrieve it that way?
I knew that from my experience with working through my Fractal Progression essay. Beware! If you put in a wrong value, or decide you no longer want one, you can't get rid of it. Also, there is no way to label the values with easy names to keep track of them. Personally, I think the user-defined progression module needs a deep revamping.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 11:34 am

As for the extra work with a spreadsheet, I'm working on it.
Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer. The challenge is finding the right constant, and thinking it through without experimentation hasn't given quite the right answer. I used 0.003430114 but I think there's a factor I'm not considering, and it's too hard to tweak on the road.
As, wait, that DOES do it. Calculating that way gives an MC (for 10:10 AM PDT this morning) of 4°21' Capricorn, and using the Solar Fire method gives the same thing to the minute. So yes, that's the spread sheet solution. See below for the look... (In use, of course, one has to make sure that the birth time is entered in the local time zone just to make this easier when you input it as a chart, hence my 2:13 AM, which is the PST equivalent of my 4:13 AM CST birth time.)
PSN example.JPG
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 11:36 am

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:33 am
Personally, I think the user-defined progression module needs a deep revamping.
They could handle it simply enough with User1 through User5. After all, the Tropical crowd they're often uses innumerable rates :)
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 12:19 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:34 am
Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer.
Modifying your PSSR spreadsheet in this way was my first step, so there was a basis of comparison with SF. I'm not even out of bed yet on this holiday morning, but I'm thinking that if you take the difference in ST between mean and apparent, and apply it to the mean clock time, you'll get the correct equivalent progressed date /time.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 12:28 pm

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 12:19 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:34 am
Cool. I did a crude one between the last two posts. Excel does a fabulous job of calculating the time between two dates and times (don't have to go to JD numbers), so subtracting event date/time from birth date/time, times a constant, added to the birth date/time gives the answer.
Modifying your PSSR spreadsheet in this way was my first step, so there was a basis of comparison with SF. I'm not even out of bed yet on this holiday morning, but I'm thinking that if you take the difference in ST between mean and apparent, and apply it to the mean clock time, you'll get the correct equivalent progressed date /time.
Yes, that would be a nice add-on. I wasn't even thinking of that, but only of how to replicate exactly what the SF technique produces. But it would be useful to get apparent rate in a single calculation, rather than in a replication using page 1 of the spreadsheet. Regrettably, this means adding more numbers to the spreadsheet initially and for each use - I was liking the idea of just put it (and save for your own chart) birth date and time, and then each use is open the spreadsheet, type current date and time, and instantly have the final answer.

So... minimizing the inputs... we'd have to add SSR Sun RA, transiting Sun RA, subtract them, multiply by the 1.25-whatever, compare to an auto-generated MS difference (based on one of two approaches that come to mind), delete ~10 sec/hour from that, and apply to the first (mean) calculated value. This, of course, still leaves the gap of having not adjusted for uneven solar years through life to conform the mean-from-birth to the match-current-SSR.

I really do hope that a few hundred examples confirm that the apparent rate for PSSR is a derelict fiction and, like every other technique resembling it in the armory, it works on mean rate... but que sera sera.
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon May 29, 2017 12:53 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 11:34 am
This, of course, still leaves the gap of having not adjusted for uneven solar years through life to conform the mean-from-birth to the match-current-SSR.
I understand what you're talking about, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed that these irregularities in the Sidereal Year length would be automatically taken care of once the mean PSN ST was corrected to the PSSR's.
,
For strictly mean calculations... yes, I can see that.

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon May 29, 2017 12:59 pm

Yes, if corrected, that's right. I'm looking for something similar - something where I can just hit the Animate TriWheel link and have the chart for the moment (and in my head think, "And this year the RAMC is running a degree and a quarter fast."

But yes, for precision work on a timed event, if you calculate the PSSR fully and then adjust, you're good.

My biggest interest at the moment doesn't involve the angles at all. I won't to confirm whether this is a full progression system - whether the progressed aspects warrant major attention - whether Moon progressions peak exactly when you'd expect, and transits to the progressed Moon are as startling as to secondary Moon. So far, my favorite occasions for fine-tuning the angles has been one for the day a female friend confronted a bunch of people that had been oppressing her for the last year, "got off" her shadow element on the matter, and came out feeling clean. I noticed the PSN progressed Moon-Saturn conjunction very close, but when I tuned about 10 minutes to get the angles just right, I found it was 000' orb for the hour she made the decision and made the first call.
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