The PSN - New progression system to test

General Discussion on Transit & Progression matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Jim Eshelman
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 6:27 am

Wow, quite an example. - Sorry to hear about the hassle, of course; but it is indeed a good example. (None of the other quotidians showed anything?)
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am

Jim wrote:
(None of the other quotidians showed anything?)
Exactly Jim, you have indeed discovered a very important new progressed system. I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 7:21 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 am
I am still a little confused about how to view/understand the correct angles. Am I suppose to advance and adjust the angles in the above Q chart by app 1,40 degrees at my age?
I understand the confusion because there isn't an easy, straightforward way of calculating it. Also, at first I thought that this "averaging" way of calculating it was only going to be off by 1-2°, but I've now seen some examples where it appears to be off more than that, in one case as much as 5°. It is complicated further because one of the ways I have used it in Solar Fire seems to have a program bug, since I calculate the same thing two ways and get unrelated answers... still trying to figure that out.

The confusion is I our not having the right tools... which has always been the case with the PSSR.

Here is one sure thing I can say: The angles will be PRECISELY those for your PSSR, if the PSSR is calculated by mean rate instead of apparent rate. This is really the definition of the whole thing: The Progressed Sidereal Natal (PSN) is exactly the Progressed Sidereal Solar Return (PSSR), run uninterruptedly through your whole life, applied to the natal instead of your current SSR. The way to see if the "averaging" from birth is a little off is to calculate for the PSSR and know that these are the real angles.

The technique I recommended to "true" these to each other is to calculate the PSN to the moment of your SSR. Your current SSR MC is 19°10' Aries (RA MC 41°40'). Calculating your PSN for September 20, 2016, 3:32:51 AM CDT, I get MC 17°30' Aries (RAMC 39°04').

Simple way to look at it: The calculated MC is 1°40' earlier than it should be, so add 1°40' to the MC throughout the year. This, though, is not really a consistent figure, because the MC doesn't advance in longitude at the same rate it does in RA, and it's the RA figure we really need; but, for most work, it's close enough. The more complete way to look at it: The RA of the MC, in the sample above, is 2°36' early, and that's what would stay most consistent throughout the year. (There are still some other complication, but no big ones.)

(I did these examples for Albertville for convenience. Now moving to Springville.)

[Read the following slowly, with real examples in front of you. It is numerically dense and not easy to follow.]

So... let's apply this to May 18, 2017, 7 PM, Springville, AL. Fastest way to get angles is to run the system on your SSR. It gives MC 12°44' Aquarius, Asc 1°32' Gemini. Most importantly (for the fine points) is that RA of MC (from the Reports button) is 339°23'.

If I calculate the same to your natal chart, I get what you got - slightly earlier angles. We can approximate the right answer by adding the 1°40' difference in longitude, and we get a pretty close answer - gives an MC of 12°36', which is only a few minutes different from what I calculate from the SSR. (The calculation from the SSR is what we want.) Notice that Asc 1°32' Gemini, MC 12°44' Aquarius, is still close to the Sun, Mars, and Uranus, just not as to-the-minute precise as in the chart you gave above,

Here's the real check, though: The RA MC difference between your SSR and the PSN to the moment of your SSR was 2°36'. I think this should be a stable RA difference throughout the year. Is it? The RAMC of the PSN-from-natal to last night is 336°47', and the RAMC of PSN/PSSR-from-SSR is 339°23', or 2°36' later, exact to the minute as it should be.

So... this tells me that the "ST of the SSR, minus ST of PSN for the moment of the SSR" (difference in RA MC) gives a stable value throughout the current SSR year.

Practical Take-Away #1" If you want to confirm the exact angles, run them from the SSR. This is what the angles run from the natal should be.

Practical Take-Away #2: MC difference (SSR MC, minus MC of PSN calculated for moment of SSR) is a good approximation throughout the year, though the difference is RA of MC is the better way to check, rather than difference in longitude of MC.

Practical Take-Away #3: This would be soooooooooooooo much easier with the right software tools!
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 7:50 am

Thanks Jim, the phone call I received was so important to me, it makes me believe the triple paran of Sun-Mars-Uranus is reflecting precise true angles. But, if I understand with the known different ways with Sidereal Astrology for progressing angles, the above angles cannot be true, correct?

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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 7:51 am

Unless I have totally misconstrued the nature of the technique, the average ones you calculated cannot be true. However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 19, 2017 8:01 am

Coincidentally, Marion had an important phone call last night at 6:30 PM to 7:00 PM (but two hours away in time zone) that left her relieved and rejuvenated after a few days of feeling physically down. Taken by itself, this example would also (like yours) have me wondering if the pure mean rate (unmodified PSN calculated for the birth chart) was correct, which seems bizarre.

If I go the extra steps to get the angles just right, we get MC 24°56' Virgo, Asc 6°16' Sagittarius. Sure, the MC is partile square transiting Pluto, and that's fine enough for a psychological transformation of her point of view that shifted things.

But the pure "average" rate - just applying the PSN rate to her local natal, without trying to correct it - gives MC 19°57' Virgo, conjunct t Jupiter at 18°56' Virgo, opposite Venus at 18°22' Pisces. This looks so much more like the psychological relief, phone call with a close friend, etc. that I watched happening. Is it (like your example) a coincidence, or is there something I'm missing?
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Re: The PSN - New progression system to test

Post by SteveS » Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 am

Jim wrote:
However, the more carefully calculated ones still have the planets within 2°, which is what we've seen works in mundane quotidians.
Exactly, I thoroughly understand. The phone call last night has already prompted 2 more phone call to others, discussing what course of plan(s) I should consider as options. Thanks Jim.

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