Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

General Discussion on Natal Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:01 am

Before I discovered Sidereal Astrology, I studied a-lot of Robert Hand’s material on Natal Midpoints, which imo, offer possible important deleinations for a Natal Chart, when not seen/understood with Sidereal Astrology alone. In Robert Hand’s book ‘Horoscope Symbols’ he writes in the following link below about weighing the strengths of certain midpoints. Most modern Astrological Computer Programs have ‘Midpoint Tree lists’ for all the Midpoint point structures in a Natal Chart, and will identify the Direct Midpoints in a Natal Chart with a ‘D’ besides a Direct Midpoint. Robert Hand considered identification of Direct Midpoints in a Natal Chart important. As a companion book for reading about certain tones for a Direct Natal Midpoint, Reinhold Ebertin's book, 'Combinations of Stellar Influences' is a most excellent book to have on your astrological bookshelf.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:59 am

FWIW, I agree with the spirit of all of this, and disagree quite sharply with some of it, especially the first point below.

1. I see no difference between direct and indirect midpoints but draw the line one level lower, at squares to midpoints. To be clear, "direct midpoint contact" means conjunction or opposition to a midpoint (since there is no difference between the two). Squares to midpoints aren't direct, but they are of seemingly identical strength to the conjunctions and oppositions. (Semi-squares and sesqui-squares to midpoints are quite valid, though you can feel a sharp drop-off in their effect, so I only use them when I need additional information.)

2. I agree that midpoints that involve the personal points (in this case meaning Sun, Moon, MC, Asc) stand out as more important. This is probably for the same reason that Sun and Moon aspects stand out as more important: the solar and lunar psychological functions are more fundamental to the whole of our character. - This should not be taken to mean that these are the only ones we should examine, though.

2A. The above is a basic Ebertin teaching, and it goes back to Uranian astrology. The teaching is that midpoint contacts (or wider "planetary pictures") are most important when a personal point is involved. Cosmobiology (Ebertin school) considers that personal points are Sun, Moon, MC, Asc, but also Moon's Node. Uranian astrology (Witte school) uses these five plus the Vernal Point (which they call the Aries Point). I limit "personal points" to Sun, Moon, MC, Asc.

2B. Whether, as Rob says, the most important midpoint structures are "as important as ajor aspects in influencing the chart," is debatable - draw your own conclusion. I agree with him that they are important, but (using my own chart as an example) there simply are no midpoints that are going to reach the importance of my closest ecliptical aspects in describing my character - nothing in midpoints that approaches, say, my Venus-Pluto 13' square, my Jupiter-Uranus 17' conjunction, my 2° Mars-Neptune square or < 2° Venus trines to Jupiter and Uranus, or my 2° Moon-Mars sextile. These strong midpoint structures are big deals but not that big of a deal.

3. I agree that midpoints of points already in aspect are particularly important. I don't exactly think it's because anything aspecting that midpoint is also in aspect to the other two. Therefore, midpoint structures often help sort out how to read multi-planet aspect combinations. (E.g. from my own chart: With Mars widely opposite Jupiter and Uranus, it's not that my Ma/Ju and Ju/Ur aspects are that unusually important; but, with Neptune square all three of them, it makes Ne = Ma/Ju = Ma/Ur quite important. A grand trine or split-trine often will be resolvable as a midpoint structure.)
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:15 am

For comparison to what is more easily viewable as aspects in my chart, here are the direct midpoint structures within 1° in my chart. (Structures with a personal point involved are in bold.) I don't think anything here comes up to the standard of the closest aspects in my chart except maybe Mo = Su/Pl.

Mo = Su/Pl
Ma = Mo/Ve
Sa = Mo/MC
Me = Ve/Ne
Ne = Ma/Ju = Ma/Ur = Ve/As
Pl = Ne/MC - Ur/As = Ju/As

I think these should be taken mundanely and not ecliptically, so shouldn't be taken so seriously:

As = Ve/Ur = Ve/Ju = Ne/Pl

Mundanely, there are no partile direct midpoints to Ascendant or Midheaven.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:03 pm

BTW, you can learn to interpret these from the planet-pair principles here. (You can also look them up in Ebertin, as long as ignore anything with Pluto.)
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2089#p15282

Thus, my Mo = Su/Pl would be Moon tied to this idea:
Sun-Pluto Authentic self, solitude, eccentric, the exception

My Ma = Mo/Ve is just an expression of the split-trine among them, but is also interpretable as Mars aspecting this idea (similar to thinking Moon-Mars + Venus-Mars):
Moon-Venus Female essence, nurture, love instinct

And so forth.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:46 pm

Thanks Jim for your personal experience with your Natal Midpoints. I followed and studied Hand's Midpoint guidelines with some solid hits with my Natal-- but some--no hits. I will later list the ones which were hits, and try to dig out my old 70,s cassette tapes with Hand's example Natal Midpoints for possible further discussions. I do remember Hand saying that Midpoint structures in our Natal help determine a more refined truer cosmic state for our Natal Planets. Should make for some interesting discussion for possible individual learning curves with member's Natal Midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:21 pm

I thought I would go over some of my Natal Midpoints, rating the strength of them according to Robert Hand’s above guidelines. FWIW, I have seen enough evidence in my own personal life using Ebertin’s ‘Combination of Stellar Influences’ (COSI) with his Midpoint deleinations that we should not ignore Direct Mundo Natal Midpoints with the primary angles of our Natal Chart, no matter where they are located on the mundane wheel. I am 70 years old, so I have plenty of hindsight to examine my life very closely in determining the validity of my Natal Midpoints with COSI. Of course what I perceive as valid with my life may not for someone else life with this astrological exercise. I will use a 1,30 degree orb as recommended by Robert Hand, but much prefer Sidereal Astrology’s guideline: “Partile (1 degree or less) reign supreme.

1: I have only one Direct Mundo Midpoint with my primary Natal Chart angles and it is with my Natal MC. It is Venus/Mars=MC, 0,08. This same Midpoint does not exist in the Eclipto Midpoint with my Natal MC.
This Midpoint reads out with COSI:
Pronounced sensuality, in individual attitude to physical love. The desire to become one with the other in soul and body, the establishment of a sex-relationship (marriage).
I have been married 47 years to the same mate, and our sexual compatibility has gone far for the ‘establishment’ of this 'marriage'.

too be continued

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:48 am

Robert Hand teaches Direct Midpoints in a Natal are very important. I began my Direct Natal Midpoint analysis with my only Direct Midpoint I have with a primary natal angle (MC), because when I discovered Sidereal Astrology it clearly taught me the vast importance of chart angles.
My next Natal Midpoint I rate as the 2nd (very close to 1st) most important Natal Midpoint in my life is very obvious to me with its life manifestations. ASC/MC=NEPTUNE (1,11-Mundo)!
Some of the prominent European astrologers look upon potential Midpoints involving the ASC/MC midpoint as the most important in the entire chart. Judging by my life, I certainly agree with certain European astrologers about the ASC/MC Midpoint as being very important. In fact, using Jim’s/Bradley’s guidelines for Sidereal Mundane Astrology, I have only seen one Sidereal Mundane Astrology chart which nailed the timing for the breakout of War in Europe in Sept 1939-- which led to World War 11. The following is a link to London’s 1939 Cansolar which is the only Mundane astrological chart I have analyzed out of many which clearly explains to any type of mundane astrologer the timing for the beginning of WW11.
Look at the DIRECT ASC/MC Midpoint of London’s 1939 Cansolar! The partile Moon/Pluto cnj, partile 180 Mars, partile 90 Saturn (T-SQUARE) sits partile on the entire axis of the ASC/MC Midpoint!

https://imgur.com/a/bF0WNAj

So, what has my Direct Natal Midpoint of ASC/MC=NEPTUNE manifested in my Life? When my Mother had be as a baby, she lived/worked next to a Drive-Inn Theater. Beginning as a baby my life became dominated by film/movies. I was virtually born and raised in this Theater environment! My bread and butter for my entire life career has been provided to me by this Neptunian Theater Environment of an illusion/film being projected on a large screen. I absolutely loved this Theater environment, my life became addicted to environment, and I terribly miss this environment in my retired/secluded life, as anyone who is deprived of an addiction. My entire working life has been dependent (Neptune) on the Theater business.

But there is much more to this Neptunian Direct Midpoint of ASC/MC dominating key aspects for my life! All my life I have been led to very high grade psychics, who have always provided me with key information which my mind/eyes could not see or figure out. My natal Mercury is cnj natal Neptune in the sign Virgo! Psychics have always been able to provide me with acute-key details that allowed me to see in detail (Mercury/Virgo) how to figure out what I could not figure out with my ordinary mind/sight. Unless we are dealing with the creative arts, Neptune is a very tricky-foggy energy to deal with in successful measures. It seemed, in my business world I would always reach a critical point where I could not see what I needed to know in order to make the correct business decision in order to literally survive life, without finding myself on the streets living in cardboard box. In fact, one of the most critical times in my life where I was faced with life or death with my business career with Theaters, came when I consulted a psychic with thoughts my business career was over—finished! The psychic told me if I consulted the bankrupt attorney which was handling the bankruptcy of a corporation which was employing my services, I would be able to buy for a song a closed- down Theater and reopen it which would become very successful. Psychics have always been able to tell me critical details which has allowed me to react in a successful way by “seeing” through Neptune’s eternal ‘fog bank’ which at times surrounds us in very confusing moments in our lives. The sight of astrology at times allows us to see things which are not visible to a non-astrologer. In fact, many astrologers believe Neptune is prominently active in Natal Charts of astrologers.

There has been another huge Neptunian factor in my life, and that is the fact in the late 60’s, I experimented with every known psychedelic drug known at this time in the USA, a highly Neptunian life trait explained by my ASC/MC=Neptune Direct Midpoint—but this is entirely another story.

too be continued with other direct natal midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:58 am

*Important addition to this thread:
Since I have started this thread, Jim has pointed something out to me about the position of my Natal Neptune which I never fully realized from a Sidereal Astrology standpoint. My Natal Neptune falls partile cnj my Natal South Point, a 90 degree point to the Vertex. Up to this point in my life, I have always related very important Neptunian things in my life as manifesting with my Neptune falling 1,11 cnj the ASC/MC, based primarily on a statement by Robert Hand, which as far as I know was originated in the early German Schools about Midpoints. Robert Hand states about the ASC/MC on page 179 of his book ‘Horoscope Symbols’:
A very important point in the horoscope…
This ‘important point in the horoscope’ (ASC/MC) contradicts the teachings of Sidereal Astrology which teaches this ASC/MC is the weakest point in a Horoscope. So, we have a contradiction here between two astrological schools of thought.
But, Jim and his Sidereal Astrology teachings from the late 70’s point out something else very important to me about the ecliptical position of my Natal Neptune, which helps me better understand this contradiction with the ASC/MC. Jim states:
Planets conjunct, opposite, or square the Vertex are highly accented, but any actual manifestations seem to be unconsciously motivated. It is this component of unconsciousness which gives the “fated” or “predestined” quality which other writers have associated with Vertex sponsored occurrences.
My Natal Neptune falls partile square my Natal Vertex, labeled the South Point (SP), and very important Neptunian things in my life have manifested, the most important Neptunian event in my life being I was born as a baby living in a house next to a Drive-Inn Movie Theater. Talk about being “fated”—it don’t get more “fated” than being born into something (Movie Theater business environment) which becomes a most dominating influence in your entire life, and definitely was an 'unconscious motivated' influence in my life. :)
Last edited by SteveS on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by James Condor » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 am

Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:17 am

James asked:
Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?
James,
With my understanding of Midpoints from Robert Hand’s guidelines, AND combined with a Siderealist who did a-lot of work with Midpoints (much more than me), without a doubt, the most important Midpoint in your entire Natal Chart is the Mundo Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars=MC. Do I remember correctly you have experienced an environment of “quarrels” in your work place during your career?
Ebertin in his book on Midpoints writes about the:
“Negative Probable Manifestations” of the combo Moon/Mars:
The tendency to become involved in quarrels, the demonstration of intolerance, marital differences.

I will get back with you later on the rest of your Direct Midpoints.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:06 am

On astro.com on the Free or Extended Chart Drawing page, you can choose (or enter) birth data, and choose the chart type (natal, solar, progressed, etc.) and chart drawing style (Web Default style, Astrodienst style, etc).
Under chart drawing style in the drop down box, choose Ebertin style (w. midpoints).
This will get you an odd looking chart (don't ask me!) with the usual options for PDF Drawing( for subscribers) and PDF additional tables. Click on the additional tables and viola!
A PDF (you can print out) with the distances the planets were from the earth when you were born, a table with your midpoint structures and aspects, another table with your midpoints in zodiacial order, and your midpoints in 90° order.

I'm pretty sure if you got your data entered correctly and chose the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa, these will be correct. Steve can help you interpret them.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:34 am

James Condor wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:12 am
Could you please do a midpoint of my chart?
Here are the midpoint structures I consider most important in your chart. Those with unusual importance are bolded - these are involve a luminary or angle and include nearly all your 90° series midpoints within 1°!

Sa = Mo/Ne = Mo/Ju = Mo/Me
Ve = Su/Pl
Ne = Su/Ve = Su/Ur = Me/Ju
Mo = Su/Ur = Me/Ne
Me = Su/Ur = Su/Ve
Angles = Mo/Ma

(I list this as "Angles" rather than MC vs. Asc because MC and Asc are always 90°00' apart in the mundoscope. Any midpoint that hits one also hits the other. Since Moon and Mars are foreground, one is even more inclined to see them within 0°07' of average angularity to the horizon, as to read it as their midpoint being 0°07' from MC-IC. It's all the same, ultimately.)
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by James Condor » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:57 pm

Thank you guys. I know not what any of this means yet.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:30 pm

James wrote:
I know not what any of this means yet.
It's a method to probe deeper into the natal chart to help understand certain midpoint aspects that may explain certain specific manifestations about one's life which may not be explained by a Sidereal Astrology analysis, or it can be a method to reinforce a certain aspect in your natal chart explained by the core principles of Sidereal Astrology. For example: In your Natal Chart your Natal Mars is the most angular planet, Mundo 4,22 cnj Dsc. Using a midpoint analysis with Hand's method, your Midpoint of Moon/Mars is wired in big time to your primary natal chart angles. This offers another method to isolate a very pronounced (angular) Mars theme in your life, blended in with the rest of your natal chart aspects. It is an interesting method for Natal Chart analysis, particularly when an important trait of a life cannot be explained by Sidereal Astrology. Most of the time, Sidereal Astrology will explain the main traits of one's life traits.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:27 am

Not that I have paid much attention, but shouldn't we be monitoring our direct midpoints particularly with lights and angles with transits, progressions, and solar arcs? I think this was a mainstay in the German Schools for Midpoints. Is this a fairly easy task to monitor with Solarfire? I mainly ask this question because of a-lot of interest with forum members involving relationships.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:41 am

I always felt it was just too damn much information when we already have an abundance of information.

For a while I watched transits to my Sun-Moon midpoint as a starting point and it never seemed to go anywhere.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:37 am

Jim wrote:
I always felt it was just too damn much information when we already have an abundance of information.
I agree Jim! When I was first introduced to Midpoints back in the late 70’s I was overwhelmed with what Hand was doing with Midpoints. He gave many examples (I wish I could find these examples) using transits, progressions, and solar arcs to direct midpoints. The main reason I was overwhelmed it was pre-computer days and Hand was giving these examples using dials which I absolutely never understood how to use, therefore I never examined with research examples. Then, by the time the PC landed on my desk, I had forgot to function what I heard on tapes Hand was doing with transits, progressions, and solar arcs to these midpoints. I know this: In my life I can account for the big events in my life with the mainstay of Sidereal Astrology, and that should tell me I have not missed much with Hand’s original teachings about Midpoints. But Hand writes from his book Horoscope Symbols:
…suffice it to say midpoints work. I use midpoints because they often give information that would not otherwise be available in the chart. Without them, I have seen important characteristics of a person and events in life overlooked. Midpoints that are combined with a single planet in the chart become part of that planet’s total expression. Whatever transit, progression, or solar arc direction sets that planet off in later life sets off the midpoints attached to it as well. Therefore, an understanding of the midpoints attached to a planet can tell a great deal about how that planet operates in a person’s life.
Now that I have found and quoted this passage of words from Hand—what this is telling me—is more than likely the only astrologers to actually investigate and research direct midpoints with a natal planet involving transits, progressions and solar arcs with AA charts-- were the Astrologers who were very proficient with the ‘various dials’ from the German Schools-- which were in a sense the nearest thing to a computer back in Hand’s prime teaching days. But still I don’t think the Sidereal Astrologer has missed that much except maybe some finer details pertaining to the cosmic state of a natal planet only involved in a direct midpoint.

Jim wrote:
For a while I watched transits to my Sun-Moon midpoint as a starting point and it never seemed to go anywhere.


Me too Jim, I know exactly what you mean. Maybe Hand is only talking about a natal planet that is involved in a direct midpoint with two more natal planets, I don't know. This would mean our important Moon-Sun Midpoint would have to make a direct midpoint with a 3rd factor (planet), before a transit, progression, or solar arc timed a meaningful life event or incident, again I don't know because I have never researched these type situations with a Natal Chart. I look at my life and again I don't feel like I have missed any meaningful important event by not functioning what the German Schools did with their Dials.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Danica » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:38 pm

SteveS wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:37 am
…suffice it to say midpoints work. I use midpoints because they often give information that would not otherwise be available in the chart. Without them, I have seen important characteristics of a person and events in life overlooked. Midpoints that are combined with a single planet in the chart become part of that planet’s total expression. Whatever transit, progression, or solar arc direction sets that planet off in later life sets off the midpoints attached to it as well. Therefore, an understanding of the midpoints attached to a planet can tell a great deal about how that planet operates in a person’s life.
Maybe Hand is only talking about a natal planet that is involved in a direct midpoint with two more natal planets, I don't know. This would mean our important Moon-Sun Midpoint would have to make a direct midpoint with a 3rd factor (planet), before a transit, progression, or solar arc timed a meaningful life event or incident
Yes, I think that's what he's saying.
I.e. if there's a, say, Ma/Ne = Mo, that's a Midpoint (between Ma and Ne) that is 'attached to a planet' (Mo); 'attached to a planet' I get to mean: the planet doesn't need to be on a Direct Midpoint (which is an axis of two points, not a single point), but aspecting it, by being 90* or 45* away from the direct MP point that's on the shorter-side-of-the-arch between the two of them. That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:10 pm

Danica wrote:
That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
Yes, I understand. I have never worked with the German School of Dials but can certainly see the Dials as a tremendous tool/aid for detailed work with Natal's and Synastry. I am curious Danica, do you work with Dials in Solarfire with your synastry work? And, have you read Hand's book on 'Planets in Composite,' which was also a German School technique? Thanks for your input Danica. :)

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Danica » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:52 pm

SteveS wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:10 pm
Danica wrote:
That's what we see in 90*, or 45* dial, in Solar Fire, the listed MPs that do not have the d noted on the side.
Yes, I understand. I have never worked with the German School of Dials but can certainly see the Dials as a tremendous tool/aid for detailed work with Natal's and Synastry. I am curious Danica, do you work with Dials in Solarfire with your synastry work? And, have you read Hand's book on 'Planets in Composite,' which was also a German School technique? Thanks for your input Danica. :)
I used to look at MPs only to see what colors an otherwise unaspected, or an out-of-the-picture planet, to get an insight into how is this planet connected to/integrated with the rest of the chart. But as of recently have started checking regularly, when analyzing a natal, if there are MPs involving a Light as one side of the MP-equation (I'm using the MidPoint Trees report in SF, 90* dial, orb 1*), or MPs involving both Lights.
As per looking at the MidPoints in synastry i.e. planet of one chart being connected (in Modulus 90*, as SF calls it) to a Midpoint of pair of planets in another, I've been only looking at these only when doing a very fine-detailed, exhaustive analysis.

I have- and read in parts - Hand's Planets in Composite; don't have a clearly formed opinion on it.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Arena » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:41 am

I would think that the midpoints are simply natal points, to describe a natal feature... not to follow for transits and progressions, since they are not angles.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:27 am

Danica wrote:
I used to look at MPs only to see what colors an otherwise unaspected, or an out-of-the-picture planet, to get an insight into how is this planet connected to/integrated with the rest of the chart.
8-) and very smart! When I first stated to investigate the field of astrology (1977), I soon came into contact with Robert Hand’s work on MP’s and the German Schools. Of course, the first chart I investigated with MP’s was my Natal but only became more interested/intrigued in Hand’s teachings on MP’s as my life unfolded.

Danica wrote:
But as of recently have started checking regularly, when analyzing a natal, if there are MPs involving a Light as one side of the MP-equation (I'm using the MidPoint Trees report in SF, 90* dial, orb 1*), or MPs involving both Lights.
Yes, I think Robert Hand would commend you with ‘checking regularly’ this type structure of MP’s. :)

Danica wrote:
As per looking at the MidPoints in synastry i.e. planet of one chart being connected (in Modulus 90*, as SF calls it) to a Midpoint of pair of planets in another, I've been only looking at these only when doing a very fine-detailed, exhaustive analysis.
I understand Arena. I have little experience with synastry charts from a research standpoint with lots of charts, only by using the Principles of Sidereal Astrology with other close people in my life with my natal do I see the importance of synastry charts.

Danica wrote:
I have- and read in parts - Hand's Planets in Composite; don't have a clearly formed opinion on it.
Exactly the same with me Danica! I have had this book for years but have never studied it. But, yesterday I ran my wife’s & I composite with SF for the first time, and using only the simple principle of Sidereal Astrology that partile aspects ‘reign supreme’ our composite calculated a partile cnj of Sun-Venus :o This really intrigued my mind with us being married 48 years! After seeing the Composite Chart for the relationship with wife and I, I stated reading seriously ‘Planets in Composite’ last night. What really intrigues my mind is the question: Where in Astrology History did MP’s originate? We know for sure MP’s did not originate with the Modern Day German Schools—nor did the Composite Chart of two people’s MP’s. It occurred to my mind: If MP’s originated with the original Sidereal Z, then these MP’s and their extension of the Composite Chart for the serious astrologer on Synastry is probably missing very important stuff. It could be after the standard Synastry analysis if a person/astrologer was going to consider any type long term relationship, the Composite Chart could provide important bottom-line info simply with the planetary aspects of the relationship chart itself which is the Composite Chart, I don’t know—only thinking out loud with this post. I am thinking Jim has already looked into this matter with the Composite Chart so maybe Jim could offer more clarity in this matter with the Composite Chart.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:55 am

Arena wrote:
I would think that the midpoints are simply natal points, to describe a natal feature... not to follow for transits and progressions, since they are not angles.
Yes, MP’s 'describe natal features' but in much more planetary detail than standard aspects in a natal chart. MP’s are to be used when standard natal delineations (aspects) don’t offer enough for explaining important stuff in one's life. For example: The way Jim looked at my Natal Saturn-Pluto cnj using only my MP of Saturn-Pluto, further principles of MP analysis showed that my Natal MP of Saturn-Pluto cnj produced a more detailed planetary picture with my Saturn/Pluto =Venus = Moon/Mars, which perfectly describes in more planetary detail HOW my Natal Saturn-Pluto cnj manifested in my life with my father and parents involving issues about love relationships (Venus) in my immediate living environment. In other words, with the tight cnj of Saturn-Pluto in my Natal-- we as astrologers know this is an important natal aspect, but what we don’t know is HOW this Saturn-Pluto will manifest in my life with more detail. Jim analysis of my Natal Saturn-Pluto using principles of MP analysis clearly pointed to a ‘relationship’ theme with my natal Venus being involved with my Saturn-Pluto MP and my natal MP of Moon/Mars. This is sound analysis by Jim using the principles of MP analysis taught by the German Schools.

Hand was able to correlate the importance of transits, progressions, and solar arc directions to important natal MP, by using the teachings of the German Schools with 360, 90, 45 degree Dials. It is my contention, only the astrologer who is proficient with lots of experience is the use of these Dials could actually correlate/see the importance of transits, progressions, or solar arcs to a important natal midpoint. For example: When we take a look at Trump’s Natal with transits on 2020 election night, we easily see a partile transit of Saturn to his natal Venus, but an astrologer who knew with experience how to use the German School of Dials would immediately know this Saturn transit was also partile cnj Trump’s Sun/Mars MP, in other words Trumps MP of Sun/Mars=t Saturn. This partile t. Saturn to Trump's Natal Sun/Mars MP is not easily seen with standard analysis unless one used the analysis of Midpoints as taught by the German Schools. When we go to Ebertin’s COSI book we see a combination of Sun/Mars=Saturn MP for Trump's Natal as Prez read out as:
Difficulties or obstacles in vocation (Prez of US) or profession (Prez of US), defeat in a fight or contest (2020 election), separation…
This example is how Hand would use Dials in looking at Trump’s election night for Prez in 2020. Hand by the use of Dials would immediately see Trump’s important MP of Sun/Mars was afflicted with t. Saturn being partile cnj his important Sun/Mars MP. Why is Trump’s Sun/Mars MP important? Simply because of his Natal light the Sun is involved. If I understand correctly, this is what Danica is starting to look at in her work—MP involving the lights. And this is exactly what Hand teaches us with weighing the importance of MP’s---it’s our MP’s with our Natal Lights and/or angles that are important. The main problem as I see it: We can't readily see important transits, progressions, solar arcs to our important MP's unless one is using Dials as taught by the German Schools. If one does not use dials, then one needs to run a computer list of their important MP's and then check transits, progressions, solar arcs to these important MP's; otherwise, we may be missing important timing frames in our lives when we know there are 'out of ordinary stuff' scheduled in our lives.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:50 pm

We might a well introduce the formal astrological term that is relevant. Cosmobiologists use the term planetary state to refer to the entire set of aspects and midpoints affecting a planet. (More broadly, it means all the conditions affecting a planet, which theoretically could include sign, house, angularity, and more; but, for the people who coined the term, that planetary state only includes hard aspects and midpoints.)

The planetary state is understood as being the primary (or even full) set of conditions modifying the expression of the planet. For example, in my chart (on a 45° wheel) the full complement of aspects within 5° and midpoints within 1° to my Mars are:

square Neptune 2°25'
opposite Uranus 4°25'
opposite Jupiter 4°41'
Moon/Venus 0°43'
Moon/Pluto 0°50'
Sun/Jupiter 0°53'

Therefore, the planetary state of my Mars would be written:

Ma = Ne = Ur = Ju = Mo/Ve = Mo/Pl = Su/Ju

Something that isn't so much a rule (law) as a principle of practice among Cosmobiologists is that a planet, when activated, is activated in terms of its planetary state. The primary use of this, beyond natal interpretation, is with Solar Arc directions. A planet coming by Solar Arc to contact my Mars (by any 45° aspect) would activate all of this at once. Similarly, it would bring the planetary state of the directed planet with it also.

Going from memory, I think this is developed best, as an entire integrated system, in Ebertin's book Applied Cosmobiology. (So many books, so many years, going from memory on that. I think Applied is the work where he ties together essentially the whole Cosmobiology system, natal through prediction, in one layered presentation.)

With Solar Arc directions, since the relationships between the directed planets stay the same, every planet carries its original planetary state with it. So, right now (for example), directed Mercury at 22°10' Sagittarius is 18' shy of exact square to my natal Sun. Here are the planetary states of both of those planets in my natal chart:

1. Su = Mo/Me = Sa/MC
2. Me = Sa = Ve/Ur = Ur/Pl = Ve/Ju = Ju/Pl

The simple rule (in theory, not always in practice) on interpreting this is that the entire Line #2 is contacting the entire Line #1. You have to interpret each lie in full to get the whole picture.

Ah, but here is where "dial wizards" just start to take off! Something obvious at a glance on the dial, but also obvious from the list above, is that Mercury is directed to the Sun but Sun is already natally at Moon/Mercury. In solar arcs, if Mercury shifts enough to aspect Sun then necessarily Sun is moving exactly enough to aspect Moon. This is true, since progressed (= Solar Arc) Sun is currently 27°16' Scorpio, 0°08' short of square Moon. Knowing that Su = Mo/Me tells us from the first moment we see it in the natal that the point in life when d Me = r Su is the same time as d Su = r Mo. We would, of course, interpret the Sun-Moon by bringing Sun's entire planetary state atop Moon's entire planetary state.

But it doesn't stop there either! Look at that Mercury planetary state. Something immediately obvious on the dial, but also obvious on the list of contacts above, is that Mercury's four midpoints (Ve/Ur, Ur/Pl, Ve/Ju, Ju/Pl) is really the four midpoints from my natal Venus-Pluto on one side (13' square) and Jupiter-Uranus conjunction on the other (17' conjunction). This tells us that directed Jupiter-Uranus will hit my Mercury the same time that directed Mercury hits my Venus-Pluto, which is about 14° of Solar Arc (about age 14, when I started seriously getting into astrology), or at 45-year (actually, 45°) intervals. One can tell that a critical life event would happen at age 14 that would be of the nature of Ju/Ur = Me and of Me = Ve/Pl, and that would set off the entire pattern of natal Mercury's planetary state - which it did!

Meanwhile, with d Sun square r Moon, natal Moon's planetary state is:

Mo = Su/Pl = Su/Ve

Wow, this already sets us up for the eventual direction of Sun to natal Moon because Sun is a big part of Moon's planetary state. The entire Moon pattern is set off by this Sun direction. This is such a big deal contact, so big I want to work it out for you in detail:

Because Moon is at Sun/Pluto and Sun/Venus midpoints, it means Sun is as far on one side of Moon (on the dial) as Venus and Pluto are on the other side. This means that when Sun covers the number of degrees to reach Moon, simultaneously Moon will cover the same number of degrees to reach Venus-Pluto. Looking at the dial (I'll attach one below with today's Solar Arcs in the outside circle), find natal Sun, Moon, and Venus-Pluto. Sun has to advance (counter-clockwise) from 22°28' Spoke to 12°24' Rim to make it's first aspect to Moon, a semi-square. This is 20° of Solar Arc (or about age 20). The next aspect would occur 45° later, at about 65° Solar Arc (about age 65).

In fact, my first wedding occurred March 16, 1974 with progressed Sun 11°47' Libra, 0°37' shy of exact sesqui-square to natal Moon (SA = 19°19') and my second wedding will occur May 27, 2019 with progressed 27°24' Scorpio, 0°00' from exact square to natal Moon (SA = 64°56'). Both weddings occur with progressed/directed Sun partile aspecting natal Moon, which activates the planetary state of natal Sun AND natal Moon.

Now, we could expect a wedding from d Sun to r Moon alone. It adds something know that natal Moon is at Su/Pl and Su/Ve. But what the dial lets us see in a second is that this is only half the picture: The bigger view is that I can't have d Sun to r Moon without having d Moon to natal Venus-Pluto! Using Solar Arcs (or any other directional, rather than progressional system), the paired aspects are hard-wired.

This is a small but typical example of the usefulness of the dial and Solar Arcs.

In Mo = Su/Ve = Su/Pl there is another set of aspects locked in. Not only does Sun always reach Moon as Moon reaches Venus-Pluto, but Moon always reaches Sun as Venus-Pluto reaches Moon. This occurred about age 25 and will occur again 45° later, about age 70.

Here is the dial for today from which, at a glance, you can see Mercury to Sun, Sun to Moon, and Moon to Venus-Pluto. (I've set the pointer to show Moon's planetary state.) In using a physical dial, the aspects including 45/135 are much easier to see than on the Solar Fire dial.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:25 pm

So much for Solar Arcs.

I haven't found secondary progressions or transits so useful. Ebertin has examples of using transiting planets like this atop Solar Arcs and natals, and he seemed comfortable enough with it; but a few things I checked in the '80s especially (and, to a lesser extent, ongoing since then) just haven't been so useful.

For example, Matthew and I watched, for a while, certain transiting midpoints. I did kinda think that one reason Neptune and Pluto transiting sextiles and trines seemed sometimes effective was because neither of these (when they were in close sextile) could trine or sextile a natal planet without the Neptune/Pluto midpoint conjoining or squaring the natal planet; but that probably was a wrong point of view. (It's more likely just because they're so slow.)

Try watching the transiting Mars/Saturn midpoint (or, for slower effects, transiting Saturn/Neptune or others) cross natal planets. At best, they produce an occasional (pretty rare) bad event and a whole lot of "nothing happened." Try transiting Venus/Jupiter as it zooms around the zodiac to see if you get really great days when it hits luminaries or other planets, or Venus/Mars to see if you get more sex, or Sun/Jupiter to see if you get ennobling, honoring, upbeat events... I think you'll find that these don't kick off events the way transiting planets kick off events.

Another area for which I had great hope - and still consult occasionally, though not with any notable success to report - is to try to get more detail about an event by noting a transit and checking the planetary state of the natal planet. For example, transiting Pluto is now in orb of conjunct my natal Mars. I know basically what this means but, what if I wanted more information on exactly how this would turn out? If I thought like a Tropical astrologer I might say, "Yes, but what kind of Pluto-Mars event will occur? Since Mars rules my 3rd cusp and is in my 4th house, the potentially aggressive, angry, sexual, or otherwise explosive event would likely impact 3rd and 4th house matters, like occur within the circle of family and close relatives, or impact my home or local environment.

But, since I don't think that way... what if I wanted more information on exactly what kind of Pluto-Mars event this would be? Is there a way to do it? A logical way is to look at natal Mars' planetary state, which is as follows:

Ma = Ne = Ur = Ju = Mo/Ve = Mo/Pl = Su/Ju

This is a rather complex planetary state with many possibilities, but we could take Pluto to each of those other factors, including the midpoints, and search for further details on the event.

I've tried this a lot... and it has never produced anything useful. It's never "filled in the cracks" on information about how the transit would unfold or, if some midpoint contact indeed was meaningful, it wasn't clear how I would have picked that out in advance. (For example, if there were a sudden surge of zeal and enthusiasm for a project with great energy available, that turned into a significant success, this might be an expression of Pluto transiting natal Ma = Su/Ju... but how would I know that in advance from the whole planetary picture? Would't it be as likely explosive sex interest from Pluto transiting Ma = Mo/Ve, or hurting myself in overly strenuous activity with Pluto transiting Ma = Mo/Pl? It seems impractical, even unnavigable.)

One could also look for more simple uses of transits to natal midpoints, e.g., watch natal Sun/Moon (mine is at 9°56' Sag) to see if it is responsive to transits. I've never seen any useful results from transits to even so significant a midpoint, nor noticed 10° Spoke standing out as a degree that keeps showing up in my life events without other explanation.

So... I haven't found midpoints useful in transits.
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