Real Bad People

General Discussion on Natal Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist
sotonye
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:46 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:57 am
Please remember, popular astrology is not astrology. It's sensationalism. It's like a bodice ripper novel. It's meant to hook your interest, not educate or inform you.
This was perfect and beautiful and I'm going to say this to anyone who asks, "why is tropical astrology popular if Sidereal astrology is valid?" Thank you

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:55 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:59 am
You can't measure angularity with the ecliptical (zodiacal) position of a planet (except Sun). Any planet north or south of the ecliptic will rise or set (etc.) at a different time than its degree rises or sets. The best way to measure angularity is in the mundoscope (i.e., in prime vertical longitude), though it's "close enough" if you use altitude.
Should we dispense with ecliptical angularity in our interpretations in exchange for PV longititude in this case? I always thought everything derived from a PV calculation was supplemental, apart from aspects to the Moon.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:00 pm

sotonye wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:55 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:59 am
You can't measure angularity with the ecliptical (zodiacal) position of a planet (except Sun). Any planet north or south of the ecliptic will rise or set (etc.) at a different time than its degree rises or sets. The best way to measure angularity is in the mundoscope (i.e., in prime vertical longitude), though it's "close enough" if you use altitude.
Should we dispense with ecliptical angularity in our interpretations in exchange for PV longititude in this case? I always thought everything derived from a PV calculation was supplemental, apart from aspects to the Moon.
Yes. Ecliptical angularity is of no use at all except for those situations which are intrinsically ecliptucal, meaning squares to Asc and MC. The whole thing is spelled out in an early chapter of my Sidereal Mundane Astrology.

Proximity to horizon and meridian (Asc, MC, Dsc, IC) is measured in PV longitude. Proximity to EP/WP is measured in right ascension. Squares to Asc and MC (which are actually conjunctions with other angles) are inherently ecliptical.

Your last phrase confuses me: I'm not talking about aspects at all, but about angularity.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Lance » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:05 pm

To the OP: In the following thread, Jim talks about a study Bradley did on murderers, Jim's own attempt to replicate the study, and the differences between the two.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2385

The difference seems to be that Bradley studied people whose murders were performed more in the passion of the moment while Jim's study focused more on repeat offenders. The results came out different, but you may find some interesting information regarding your original post.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Veronica wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:19 am

I understand the simplicity of lumping people into sun sign and even moon sign....but how and why are people being called planets?
Is this angular?
It seems very restrictive to call people planets.
When a person is a planet:

When factors in a chart are sufficiently eclipsed by one factor in particular. (It's just easier to say that someone is a "Pluto person" or "Saturn person," it conveys most of what I mean immediately).

If a planet is on an angle it largely defines the individual, the angular planet resource is written as if the person is an expression of that planet, because in a way they are. It's not any more restrictive than delineations of luminary signs.

If both of the native's luminaries or most of his inner planets including Mars are in one sign, it's safe to say, unless chart factors say otherwise, that the native is dominated by the ruler of the sign.

If no planets are near angles, if both luminaries and Mars avoid the foreground, and one planet makes close aspects to many others, its safe to say that that planet defines the individual.

These are the cases where I'd say for the sake of convenience that a "person is a planet." It's easier to say than "dominated by Jupiter people," it has a better ring to it than all of that.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:28 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:00 pm
Yes. Ecliptical angularity is of no use at all except for those situations which are intrinsically ecliptical, meaning squares to Asc and MC. The whole thing is spelled out in an early chapter of my Sidereal Mundane Astrology.

Proximity to horizon and meridian (Asc, MC, Dsc, IC) is measured in PV longitude. Proximity to EP/WP is measured in right ascension. Squares to Asc and MC (which are actually conjunctions with other angles) are inherently ecliptical.
I had no idea about all of this, thank you Mr. Eshelman.
Your last phrase confuses me: I'm not talking about aspects at all, but about angularity.
And I just meant that I thought, except in the case of Moon aspects alone, PV calculations were in every way secondary. I didn't know they were essential for initial interpretations in another way besides for that

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:29 pm

Lance wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:05 pm
To the OP: In the following thread, Jim talks about a study Bradley did on murderers, Jim's own attempt to replicate the study, and the differences between the two.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2385

The difference seems to be that Bradley studied people whose murders were performed more in the passion of the moment while Jim's study focused more on repeat offenders. The results came out different, but you may find some interesting information regarding your original post.
Hi Lance, thank you very much for sharing this! This is perfect!

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Pluto, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with Scorpio.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:44 pm

Yes, Pluto plus one or more malefics.
Please don't try to drag Scorpio in. Scorpio has nothing to do with Pluto. That's one of those weird tropical ideas that infect "popular astrology".

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by By Jove » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:40 pm

Pluto as understood in tropical astrology and Pluto as understood in sidereal astrology are two very different things. If all this makes you feel confused, that's okay. Sidereal astrology is basically western astrology recovered from the ground up, from Egypt to the present day. So it's expected to contradict at least some accepted wisdom.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Danica » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:56 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:15 pm

As for the tropical astrology's discrepancy with sidereal practice, I will say it's very very unwise of you to discard all the valuable information/experience that is developed by tropcial astrologers, simply because they use a wrong zodiac . After all, there is really no great difference between your practice except the use of zodiac.
I must say, your cocky attitude is interesting, especially in conjunction with how ignorant on the subject you often are :) It inspires me to be more cocky myself with what I know, and I know that I know it :mrgreen:

What you said above shows that you haven't actually bothered to read the material here on the forum.

But, I guess you can't pour into a glass already full (... did I say this before, in reply to some of your posts? - a deja vu!) - even if what would be poured be Amrita itself :)

...open our minds... instead of confining ourselves in "tropcial" or "sidereal" camp and rejecting everything else
There are no 'camps'. There's astrology, and there's the popular misconception of it.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:46 am

Dani's right. Nobody is discarding anything just because we use a different zodiac. It's just we have already looked at this stuff (often repeatedly as new people keep trying to drag the same stuff in here to "start a discussion")

Nobody said everything tropical is trash. But trying to claim the mythology of the name has anything to do with the planet Pluto isn't tropical trash. It's non-astrological trash. Pluto is a planet. Nothing to do with zodiacs. Any decent tropical astrologer would tell you the same. It's trash.

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Administrative Warning

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:53 am

Please stop trying to "Tropicalize" Sidereal astrology. This is a formal warning, which I've only issued a time or two in decade-plus history of this site. Your persistent belligerence makes this more warranted. (I am making this cumulative, as a 2nd Warning, because you had a 1st Warning once before.) -- THE ADMINISTRATOR

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:55 am

I could take half my morning to answer your questions, but it's not worth it. It's been done before and, besides, the questions aren't an honest attempt to learn (otherwise you'd listen better). I have better things to do with my time.
coolcoolwcr wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:15 pm
It's very strange that you can accept uranus as co-ruler of aquarius and neptune as co-ruler of pisces, yet reject pluto's affinity with scorpio. Do you have any concrete evidence to prove that pluto's nature is at odds with scorpio?
As has been stated many times, we attribute Pluto to Aries, where your Sun and Moon are located. - For the rest, I'll leave it to Dani and Jupe, who have given on-target answers.

Your idea that there has been no experimentation going on is ill-informed and an insult. But then, making ill-informed and insulting remarks is basic to your nature, at least as you have actualized it thus far.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Danica » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:23 am

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:22 am
[...]to make the humiliation that is destined to happen [...]
Upon what do you base this absolute certainty that a humiliation was destined to happen, that specific phenomena (experience), among innumerable possible (imaginable and unimaginable, as far as our conscious mind is concerned) ways how a Sun-Neptune combo can manifest?

Something in you chose to consider this exact form of all possible manifestations as that which is certain to happen.

My remark was intended to prod you to self-reflect. The tone was Marsy, responding to your way of communicating on the forum.
one of the great purpose of learning astrology, is to put the knowledge into practice to change our lives for the better and evade misfortune.
... so, if some specific thing is really destined to happen, is there any way we can avoid it?
(it's a question for you to think about, we're already well off-topic here)
There are so many ways sun-neptune may manifest and without the knowledge of astrology I may be so devastated and victimized by the day's event.
Or elated, highly ecstatic, experiencing some thus far unknown rapture of Mystical Unity...
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Veronica » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:13 am

I actually believe that this forum is not based on uniformity of thought.

I see places in the forum to discuss ideas, perceptions and personal expierence. It is even encouraged in some threads to push past uniformity and discuss new ways manifestations are taking form.

Yet I do agree that Sidreal astrology is a completely different way to understand relate and expierence ALL that existance is, Time Space Love Will all that good stuff.

With out a uniform language, one that is agreed upon, we cannot communicate.

I have Pluto angular

I have four planets in Scorpio

Pluto is not Scorpionic.
Not in my life and not in my expierences.

My Scorpio can chew up anything you toss at me and I can look you in the eye while I digest it and regurgitate it right back up at you.

My Pluto will look at what your tossing and walk away not caring one bit to engage. No ego no desire no feeling no though about it or you at all.

Thats Arian not Martian and it takes one to know one.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Danica » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:36 am

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:30 am

in my astrology data I have a lady, who happen to have six planets conjunction in Mars ruled sign Scorpio. She was born November 17, 1899, 2:30 PM. Can you tell me what's her likely profession? please think in the Mars direction because she's so hot. I will later reveal.
Is she actually born in the 19th century, or it's a typo?
We can't calculate a chart without the place.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Veronica » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:40 am

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:30 am
Veronica wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:13 am


Pluto is not Scorpionic.
Not in my life and not in my expierences.

Okay, you can say whatever you like, but,

in my astrology data I have a lady, who happen to have six planets conjunction in Mars ruled sign Scorpio. She was born November 17, 1899, 2:30 PM London (United Kingdom). Can you tell me what's her likely profession? please think in the Mars direction because she's so hot. I will later reveal.

Another decent example
December 8, 1929, 4:00 AM born in france paris
This guy is a writer, who has 4 scorpio planets including mercury, my question, what subject he excels in writing? Again think in mars direction so you can be ... so wrong haha!
Haha
Your write to right
I can say what ever I want

I dont care to play games with you.

Nice try.
Have a good day

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:01 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:22 am

Now allow me to explain what is happening there, since it's over. Maybe you will see some genius move in my behavior. ;)

So the day I was seeing a sun-neptune opposition soon to occur in my SR chart of the year and it made me panic/uncomfortable. But I am soon relieved to know that I may have some "friends" in the forum who may help me discharge it.

So I decided to play a little high-profile in the forum . If you noticed I even post a prediction in mundane forecast section to afford you guys a good opportunity to humiliate me because I know many of you don't support trump.

And it happened as I expected when transiting sun was 0.05'' away from solar neptune Danica posted to humiliate me and JPSD and you followed. Your even give me a formal warning for it! That's great and humiliating enough.

All I wanted to say is that, it's a little experiment.If astrology transit has to manifest why we can't cooperate with it to make conscious decision and play along. Like in this case instead of being a victim to sun-neptune transit I believed I somehow directed the flow of events to make the humiliation that is destined to happen exciting or even fun. It's like I am cooperating with my astrology chart instead of being its victim. And, If anyone's button is triggered I apologize.
To posture as if everything unfortunate that has happened to you was intended, when it wasn't, is a strange thing and it's better not to go on that way. You tried your best to arrogate a point to those who know better, without much success, and it's better to admit this than blame astrology. What you're saying now is done to the end of compensating for feelings of loss, it's what children do when they don't win first place in the spelling bee, they say to themselves, "I didn't really care to win, in fact I tried to lose in all honesty." But none of this was an experiment on your part, you didn't try to do this to yourself, saying so makes everything a bit worse, it shows that pride is more important to you than learning, it shows either unwillingness or inability to admit when you're wrong.

At any rate, I don't think you should post anymore until you've really thought about this. I wouldn't like to see you suspended but you certainly will be at this rate. Don't reply to me with something you think is witty. Don't reply at all to anyone until you find a way to acknowledge the merits of what they say.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:39 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:18 pm
The six planet conjunction Scorpio lady, if you really believe Scorpio to be ruled by mars , you will guess in soldier athletic direction. Her career might involve heavy competitive themes. But she is a trance medium who channel spirit from underworld, no athletic no competitive theme.
Of course, Pluto is also not common (in angularity or luminary aspect) for trance mediums, either, so that hardly makes a case for it.

If you provide her birth data, we can take a look at it. (This is increasingly off-topic, though, so please start a new thread with it.)
The four planet conjunction man is a writer that excels in writing spy stories.

That's pretty commonplace, I'll easily buy that as a Scorpio Sun theme. (Again, there isn't anything about Pluto that ties into this motif.)
But my examples really proves nothing and is purely coincidence and anecdotal.
But fun.
please continue believe Scorpio to be ruled by mars because you will benefit immensely thereby :roll: after all the words said by sidereal master astrologers has to be truth, just accept it with ferverent faith and attack the heretics! Ha I guess that’s the right way to learn anything.
More important that the rulership is the understanding of the sign. I think you'e trying to attribute to Sideral Scorpio traits that Tropicalists attribute to Tropical Scorpio mushed together with their idea of the 8th house. You can find summaries of Sidereal luminary and Mars sign meanings here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1909
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:56 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:52 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:39 pm
If you provide her birth data, we can take a look at it. (This is increasingly off-topic, though, so please start a new thread with it.)
I have already given her data in a previous post. But it really doesn't matter anymore. Sidereal astrology dont use rulership in interpretation so even if libra is ruled by mars it doesn't really make a difference doesnt it? I'd like to leave the topic off because it's getting meaningless.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, since about 80% of Sidereal sign meanings align with dignified and debilited planets. That is (for example), most of Scorpio's characteristics are consistent with it being (1) like Mars, (2) unlike Venus, and (3) unlike Moon.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by sotonye » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:58 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:18 pm
You are so gravely mistaken to think that you can play the boss over me, and order me around. Who gave you such confidence? Playing a fawning dog might earn some credit in front of your master but it serves you no good in ther long term. Instead of threatening me with you words why not directly beg your master for my suspension? That's more like a dog!
My master? What? I'm telling you that you'll be suspended soon for the way you talk to others, that has nothing to do with Mr. Eshelman. The fact that you somehow think it does instead of my issue being with you only furthers the preceding point. You demonstrate an inability to see where you've gone wrong. And if you think my words are threatening id encourage you to reread what I said several times, or as many times as it takes to understand that that makes little sense. I did say I'd prefer that you not be suspended but this seems likely
Last edited by sotonye on Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:15 pm

Yes, I know that's how you think. That's the problem.
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Re: Real Bad People

Post by By Jove » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:43 pm

Reading these comments while eating popcorn.

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Re: Real Bad People

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:30 am

This matters have been discussed in several places on this site - please use the Search function to find them.

And no, I won't discuss with you. It's a waste of time. You're contentious and just here to push your own agenda and ego, it often seems. There is no discussing with you, only fighting with you, and I really have better things to do with my day than battle.

Your last sentence brings you to the bring of being expelled from the site. Is that your wish? (It would be like you to make sure you went out with a bang causing damage and conflict on the way out the door.) I will give you one more chance but if you utter even ONE more snarky, fighting, attacking thing, you will be gone and all of your posts permanently deleted behind you.

Approach this site as you would approach any guru: Humbly, and with no motive other than to learn.
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