Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

General Discussion on Natal Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:32 am

Thanks Jim for your input, always enlightening. I want to respond to some of your points but have a long day with tests today concerning a minor heart issue. These issues concern me somewhat with t. Pluto closing in on a partile 180 to my Natal Mars. I am hoping I don't need another procedure with my heart for last time I had a procedure it took me a while to fully recover. Getting old is tough business. :)

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:10 am

Good luck with your tests. Yes, getting old is not for the timid :)

Your Demi-SLR from two days ago has Mercury on MC conjunct Neptune and Venus, lots of obscure inquiry going around. (This week-long Mercury-Neptune influence has been quite difficult for a lot of people.) I have some concern over the middleground Sun-Saturn square, but not much - since the strongest thing in the SLR is stationary Jupiter exactly square MC (0°09') and in easy shot of square your foreground natal Sun.

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot of doctors in recent months, too, and have come to recognize transiting Jupiter as marking quality care, effective diagnosis, etc.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:42 am

Jim wrote:
Good luck with your tests. Yes, getting old is not for the timid :)
Your Demi-SLR from two days ago has Mercury on MC conjunct Neptune and Venus, lots of obscure inquiry going around. (This week-long Mercury-Neptune influence has been quite difficult for a lot of people.) I have some concern over the middleground Sun-Saturn square, but not much - since the strongest thing in the SLR is stationary Jupiter exactly square MC (0°09') and in easy shot of square your foreground natal Sun.

Unfortunately, I've been seeing a lot of doctors in recent months, too, and have come to recognize transiting Jupiter as marking quality care, effective diagnosis, etc.
Thanks Jim. Extensive testing yesterday by new cardiologist (I fired the other one) proved a possible slight heart attack recently, with a slight leaky value. Nothing serious, come back in two years or sooner if needed for the same tests. I am relieved :D no further procedures were ordered by new cardiologist.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:38 am

Ebertin wrote from his Book ‘Combination of Stellar Influences’ about Midpoints.
The use of midpoints is not new, as can be seen from the method of rectification used by Guido Bonati (apparently born in the year 1230 at Cascia near Florence) who was the famous court astrologer of the Emperor Frederick 11.
As with some techniques of astrology, we simply don’t know where they originated in the history of astrology, nor do we know when astrology itself originated in history. I strongly suspect astrology originated in Ancient Egypt, but it is not known how far back into history Ancient Egypt’s culture originated.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Soft Alpaca » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:12 pm

Question about midpoints. Does the energy of a planet in a midpoint come out pure. This may seem dumb to ask but my biggest midpoint of Venus-Uranus on the sun alters by a huge proportion if I include venus's square to Mars and placement in Mars/Uranus scorpio in its connection with Uranus to the sun.

[Asking about if planetary themes carry over not signs]

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Arena » Wed May 01, 2019 2:10 am

Beanies+Bad habits wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:12 pm
Question about midpoints. Does the energy of a planet in a midpoint come out pure. This may seem dumb to ask but my biggest midpoint of Venus-Uranus on the sun alters by a huge proportion if I include venus's square to Mars and placement in Mars/Uranus scorpio in its connection with Uranus to the sun.

[Asking about if planetary themes carry over not signs]
Planetary energies are always influenced by the other planets that aspect it.
So your Venus/Uranus=Sun will be influenced by any planets in aspect to those, with Mars it adds that aggressive, active and sexual Martian energy into your Venus space.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:21 am

The School of Cosmobiology teaches a Natal Direct Midpoint is very important. After living for 72 years, I can attest to my direct natal midpoint of Moon/Saturn = Mercury (0,28) is indeed a most potent influence in my life with a strong resonating vibratory tone for my inner being, positive and negative. Ebertin says about this midpoint:
The inclination to ponder or reflect, mediation, prudence and thoughtfulness, sense of duty, conscientious. Thinking of separation, the state of felling sad, saying good-bye.
I contribute this one direct midpoint for much success in my thinking pondering life with my career in the commercial theater business, and for applying astrological insight in my life for minimizing my personal malefic cycles and enhancing my benefic cycles. This was only allowed for myself since I was the only one who knew/understood the inner workings of my astrological being and immediate living environmental circumstances. But there was one thing in life I loved but had to separate myself and say a final 'good-bye' to an alcoholic father who was abusive to my mother. It was the greatest feeling of sadness I have experienced in my entire life.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:09 am

According to the Uranian School (late 1800s-early 1900s), originators for astrological extensions for today's school of thoughts with Midpoints, the Vernal Point (Spring Equinox Nodal Point), Moon Nodes, & Asc/Dsc axis symbolizes a hierarchy zeroed in to one's Relationships (all kinds—at any time) in life. The Uranian School explicitly taught if any national figure was ever to become famous making a significant impact on the larger world around them---it was through the nodal point of the Spring Equinox. The Uranian School taught if the astrologer wanted insight on how a person was going to become famous to the larger world around them---to pay close attention to the Natal Midpoints Structures to the Nodal Point of the Spring Equinox.

I have done absolutely no work with the the Spring Equinox Nodal Point (Vernal Point) with charts, but after reading this morning Jim's topic of “Archetypes of Taurus” and my responding with my opinions about history when 0 Taurus by Precession came to the the Vernal Point, the thought jumped into my mind, we are now seeing a famous person (Taurus) who does have an important relationship with a most significant impact to the larger world around him and that is President Donald Trump. This made me think of the Uranian School and their teachings about the Vernal Point being a possible important point in the Natal Chart and other Charts. So, I went to Solarfire to check out Trump's Natal Midpoints to the Vernal Point, and quickly review some of Robert Hand words on Midpoints/Vernal Point in his book "Horoscope Symbols". But, I am not exactly sure if I am seeing Trump's Midpoints correctly with Solarfire---so Jim needs to verify if my observation that Trump has a Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) =Vernal Point?

If true, this Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) = Vernal Point would also partially astrologically explain to me WHY Trump excites (Mars) so much public (Moon) hate (Mars) toward him. Trump will probably go down in history as a President who may possibly incite the most public strife ever to occur in the history of the USA. If I have not calculated this Moon/Mars 0,00 =Vernal Point correctly---then Trumps rising Mars (partile cnj Asc in DC) will have to do for inciting all the public strife.

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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:21 am

You're correct that some things astrologers allege - such as the Astrological Ages - does require acknowledging astrological validity to the Vernal Point. There is no basis for the Astrological Ages other than as a sign-transit of the Vernal Point. Witte's interpretation of the VP as "concerning the Earth horoscope" or (more simply) "the world" makes much sense, at least as an initial speculation, and Uranian astrologers consider it a basic interpretation.

BTW - to digress - if anyone wants to learn more about Uranian Astrology, I recommend The Language of Uranian Astrology by Roger A. Jacobson. Roger was a Siderealist - he said so quite candidly in one of his many articles in Spica, and much of the Spica collection we have posted here for download is from Roger's private collection. This doesn't enter into his magnum opus on Uranian Astrology because zodiacs weren't an issue for that book, it's all about mathematical relationships; but the book itself is the best text anyone ever did on the subject. I got mine on December 18, 1975m, probably the exact week I moved to West Hollywood two blocks from Bodhi Tree. Matthew and I spent years going through that book together.

Anyway, back to Steve's questions.
SteveS wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:09 am
So, I went to Solarfire to check out Trump's Natal Midpoints to the Vernal Point... But, I am not exactly sure if I am seeing Trump's Midpoints correctly with Solarfire---so Jim needs to verify if my observation that Trump has a Direct Midpoint of Moon/Mars (0,00) =Vernal Point?
No, you made a common mistake. You put in the Aries Point. In Solar Fire, this will put in 0° Aries of whatever zodiac you are using. Now, this point does have an interesting planetary picture, especially because Trump's Saturn is at 29°50' Gemini (10' off the Sidereal 0° Cardinal axis), and Moon/Aries is not only 0°00' from that axis (midpoint 0°00' Libra) by 0°10' from Saturn.

To get the Vernal Point for this purpose (in a Sidereal chart), don't add the Aries Point, add the Vernal Point - it will match the longitude of the SVP, so Trump's is at 6°01' Pisces. On the 90° wheel, its midpoints within 1° are Moon/Mercury 0°02', Mercury/Node 0°10', Sun/Mercury 0°54'. I don't really think these "fit," but they're all so generic that it's hard to say they fit him distinctly. Here are Witte's interpretations of those three combinations from Rules. (I substitute VP for his "Ar.") Personally, I don't think Trump best represents "the thinking populace" or a "thinking nation."

VP = Mo/Me. Young persons. Young women. Thinking populace. Memory for general things. Thinking nation. General traveling conditions.

VP = No/Me. Exchange of ideas. News.

VP = Su/Me. The thinking man. The motion. Travelling and wandering.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:58 pm

I was going to skip the following post (as opening a new can of worms), but think I should say something...

The Uranian Astrology theory Steve is citing explicitly refers to the vernal point - Tropical 0° Aries-Libra remains a valid astronomical point - the vernal points formed by the intersection of the ecliptic and the celestial equator - independent of any question of zodiacs. It either is valid or not valid, "works" or "doesn't work," but (unlike the Uranian hypothetical "Trans Neptunian Planets," it's something real.

Another "something real" that theoretically could be important is the one Steve accidentally used: Sidereal 0° Aries. On the 90° dial, this axis marks all 0°00' Rim and all 15°00' Hub point, the eight that are most likely the anchor points of the Sidereal zodiac. Theoretically, this might be objectively important. It would complicate our astrology, but it's at least a theoretical consideration. One might muse ( little tongue in cheek, but not wholly) that if the vernal point is astrologically valid and means "the world," then the Sidereal 0 Rim / 15° Hub might mean "cosmos," which is a little hard to manage interpretively. I would suggest thinking of it as "impersonal things, those matters outside the framework of one's personal horoscope and more the anchoring of it to the mundane astrology world. (Again, this is 100% theoretical.)

I only mention it because of the following: I decided to idle a little time checking the VP theory on U.S. presidents for whom we have good birth times, toi see if midpoints on the VP axis either showed their place in the larger world or what they brought to the larger (outside themselves) world. I was surprised to find some remarkable of the SZ point!

Besides Steve's inadvertent example of Donald Trump having Sa=Mo/Ma exactly on this axis, here are a few interesting examples. (I'll use "SZ" to designate the 0° Rim point for now.)

If George Washington's birth time is correct, even-hour and recorded in the family Bible (10 AM LAT), he had SZ=Ju/MC (and the less-clear VP=Me/Ma). Abraham Lincoln had less clear midpoints on VP (Mo/Sa, Ve/Ju), but, again, the great dignity of Jupiter and an angle - this time Ju/AS - along with Ne/MC. (Not every U.S. President had this kind of dignity marker on the axis, but these two did.) Dwight Eisenhower, who especially served the world larger than himself as Supreme Allied Commander in WW II, has nothing on the VP axis but, on the SZ axis, has the remarkable "military victory" Ma/Ju! Gerald Ford, who personally presided admirably (IIRC) over the nation's two worst modern embarrassments (Watergate aftermath and the final collapse of our efforts in Vietnam) had Mo/Sa and Su/Ne on the SZ axis. John Kennedy, if his family records 3 PM birthtime is correct, had SZ =Sa/As and, despite everything else he did, he is still remembered best for a time of the nation's greatest mourning.

As a counter-example, Jimmy Carter, one of the greatest lifelong messengers of peace, has SZ = Me/Ma.

Not everybody has anything on this axis. Gandhi had no midpoints on either SZ or VP axis. Bill Gates has nothing on SZ and the interesting Ju/Ur on VP. Martin Luther King at least had As/Ur, if his even-noon birthtime is correct.

A few of these are interesting.
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Re: Excellent Natal Midpoint Rules, by Robert Hand

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:49 pm

Thanks Jim, I now understand my mistake of using the Aries Point in Solarfire instead of the VP (Vernal Point) for Trump. I did not even realize I had a VP option. And, I do understand some of the interesting points you raise about possible validity using the VP with Natal Midpoints for people famous on the World Stage. That Bill Gates example was an eye opener. :o

Jim wrote:
One might muse ( little tongue in cheek, but not wholly) that if the vernal point is astrologically valid and means "the world," then the Sidereal 0 Rim / 15° Hub might mean "cosmos," which is a little hard to manage interpretively.
Thought provoking!

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