Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

General Discussion on Natal Astrology matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Jim Eshelman
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Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:03 pm

GENERAL INTRODUCTION: Sidereal astrologers have rarely written at length about how to judge specific areas of life about which people may have recurring questions. Tropical astrologers dwell on this extensively, surely fortified by the idea (that may or may not be true) that different areas of life are "governed" by different houses.

Speaking for myself, I've not written about such topics extensively because my primary interest is exposing character and its unfolding. I disagree with the house-driven premise that we are drastically different in how we handle different parts of our lives. Instead, I find that, "How you are in one part of your life, so are you in all the parts of your life" - your inherent self ultimately shines through one way or the other. Therefore, my basic answer to any question of "How does this person act in the X part of his or her life?" or "Over the course of life, what is likely to happen to this person?" will always be: "Understand who this person is: That will tell you what you want to know."

Nonetheless, we do have ways of placing a magnifying glass over one or another area of life; we just haven't sharpened these tools. I propose to start a series of threads on different life areas. For each, I will post this introduction; then reserve the first reply space for me to post my primary answer (as I get around to it). The rest of the thread is wide open to discussion and contribution. (Over time, I will edit my premise-post with the idea of turning it into an instruction in the topic, fed by the discussion. You don't have to wait for my premise-post to post on the topic.)

Some will be tempted, based on the nature of these topics, to jump into the houses as a quick answer. As the thread is open to discussion, that's fine; but, as usual, my own opinion is that we should stick with techniques that we have proof work, which at this stage in astrology's unfolding would minimize or exclude the use of houses.

Everyone feel free to jump in!
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by SteveS » Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:46 am

Gayle (my wife of 52 years) has Saturn in the 3H, and all through-out school before she married me, her sister inhibited her big-time. But as time went on their relationship improved and today their relationship is just fine as sisters. Maybe there is something to do with inhibited Saturn symbolism gets better with age.

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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:35 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:46 am
Gayle (my wife of 52 years) has Saturn in the 3H, and all through-out school before she married me, her sister inhibited her big-time. But as time went on their relationship improved and today their relationship is just fine as sisters. Maybe there is something to do with inhibited Saturn symbolism gets better with age.
Steve, did this improve with geographic distance? By chance, was Gayle moving away the timing?

I'm asking for several reasons. In theory, I'm not sure 3H should be thought of as brothers and sisters so much as "local" connections, people who (more or less) live only a yard or a block away (hence the traditional connection to neighbors). 3H sibs less as sibs and more of "your closest neighbor." In principle, 3H (being the first area of space rising from IC) is our first, closest steps away from home, the first, short, well-leashed, narrow-range ventures of looking out into the world and exploring (but don't leave the yard, figuratively). When one moves away, sibs stopping being sibs (closest neighbors) per se and become more of the general pool of "family."

From a house perspective, Gayle has LOTS of "family" input with Sun and three mixed planets in 4H - and that's before one gets to the planets alone, ignoring the houses.

Part of the reason for exploring and expanding on these topics is that they are traditionally house linked but I'm not sure the houses really are where the "meat" is. Yes, I do think (without hard evidence) that there is something there. In my own case, I puzzled about it for a long time because Venus exactly on my 3rd cusp did NOT describe my growing-up relationship with my sibs, especially the closest brother (who was my primary playmate growing up). Then I realized, Doh!, it's Venus exactly on 3rd cusp and 0°13' from square Pluto. Makes much more sense!

Spreading out further in Gayle's chart, that 3H Saturn is unaspected except for an 0°08' mundane square to Uranus. Lots of push-pull, need to break away, autonomy struggles, etc. for that. (And there is the broad consideration that the Saturn house does seem to have areas where we have serious blocks, impediments, expect restrictions, etc.)

But, setting houses aside, are there are other things that show this pre-adult experience? The "thinking aloud" theories I gave at the top include looking at the Venus-Mars balance, Moon's aspects; and I should have mentioned Mercury as well, probably. Moon's main aspects are the octiles to Mercury-Neptune - do these describe the kind of "restriction" (leaving her mentally befuddled, disoriented, not knowing how to think), or was it more Saturnian out-and-out restriction? Gayle's Venus is stronger than her Mars - she's a Libra with a foreground Venus moderately conjunct her Sun, vs. background Mars: This would suggest Gayle is more prone to "approach" than "avoid," more wanting sibling affinity than sibling rivalry. She also has a close Mercury-Venus conjunction, which usually means a pretty nice childhood.

But Venus and Mars also aspect each other, and Venus' has mixed (not completely comfortable) aspects: besides the Mercury and Pluto, Venus has two close aspects to malefics. So it's quite a mix.

Anyway - I just through a bunch of individual pieces at you - I'd be very interested in any further comments you have on this. Answers to specific questions, reactions to "but this, but maybe that instead" I threw out.

Thanks!
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Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:45 pm

Traditional, house-driven Tropical astrology has long sought to describe many other relatives from a person’s chart, beginning with brothers and sisters – for whom we have a decisive 3rd House correspondence for at least the last 2,000 years. Unfortunately, the traditional approaches mostly do not work, and often play havoc with reason.

We can, however, bring reason to the question, while opening a wider discussion with my fellow Sidereal astrologers to further explore and debate this topic going forward.

A point rarely raised matches common sense and astrological experience, giving us a foothold: Brothers and sisters, while related to us as long as they and we live, only exist in that early childhood sense while we are children. As adults, they become other adults with whom we have adult connection. Our interactions and their place in our lives reflect the way our individual horoscopes connect. This is true of other relatives, too, even parents: Once we shift to an adult relationship with them, they begin to serve different psychological needs.

The people to whom we happen to be related are no longer outer “props” representing the same inner elements that they did in our infancy and childhood. They become individuals to us, as they do to themselves, usually also registering as parts of our larger sense of extended family, heritage, and roots.

Yet earlier in life they were something else, something specialized in our psyches. Besides whatever personal one-on-one relationship we had with them, they were part of our core family, our first and most ready playmates, our nearest neighbors, the other children with whom we practiced our earliest lessons of socialization, relationship, and exploration.

To the extent specific siblings served any of these functions, we can track what they represented to us through fairly obvious astrological clues.

First, siblings were part of our formative years. Broadly, therefore, they register as part of the early nest. However, I do not find in practice that they are shown by such things as Moon’s cosmic state which otherwise describes the early home. Nonetheless, the “early life” markers describe the stage on which they were players.

Second, examine the relative strengths of Mars and Venus. A strongly martial personality is prone to sibling rivalry and forming primarily competitive (but also adventurous) relationships. On the other hand, a strong Venus stirs sibling affinity and narcissistic identification (in the sense of looking at another as if enamored seeing yourself in a mirror). While this balance will not describe relationships with specific siblings, it does describe the mix of individualizing, competitive, and separating motives and behaviors with identifying, cooperative, and joining motives and behaviors. One outcome is that the Venus-Mars balance often says much about someone’s sense of how to play with others.

Finally, especially beginning around age five or six, Mercury in us serves a stronger role. Mercury’s cosmic state describes relationships that serve as a vehicle for curiosity, play, and learning communication, strengthened by the wider sense in which Mercury corresponds to other children. From this point, Mercury in us begins to shape our connection with siblings and other playmates.

Meanwhile, other relatives – the entire world of uncles, aunts, cousins, and more – are either simply other people if the connection to them is slight, or part of general family, in ways discussed earlier in the section on parents. Grandparents fall in this “other people” category if they are distant; however, if they have a strong role as parent surrogates, they are reflected by the parent significators.

House-based astrology relates brothers and sisters (like neighbors) to the 3rd House. In a limited way, this has merit. The quite ancient association of 3H with siblings refers to our experience of all people except our parents that are nearby, encountered within a short distance from home early in life, i.e., local connections.

This is merely a limited expression of a more general principle. The 3rd House, being the first area of space rising from IC, symbolizes our first short steps away from home out into the world (ascending to Midheaven eventually): the initial, well-leashed ventures of looking outward and beginning to explore. As the 9th House is worldly and far-ranging, 3H is parochial or nearby.

When one moves away, sibs stop being our closest neighbors. Until then, though, planets in 3H (considered with their modifying aspects) do describe relationships to our same-yard companions as part of our initial curiosities and explorations.
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:45 pm

I have just replaced the original post from April 2021 with the post above. This is the more complete development I wrote for a chapter in CSA Vol I. It represents my current best statement on the matter, and the platform I think we should work from for the next stage of developing it.
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by SteveS » Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:20 am

Jim, all I know is what Gayle tells me: The one person in her entire life who inhibited (Saturn) her the most has been her Sister (3H), and I note her 3H Saturn 1,15 opposed her Node, “kindred and related people,” Ebertin COSI.

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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:27 am

Thanks. - I do think that when there is a planet in 3H it has some affect like this (considered with its aspects etc.). I finished the chapter and rewrote the description for this thread.

Part of the issue is knowing what to expect from astrology - and what not to expect. Also knowing that "sibling" is a role someone plays in our drama during our childhood that becomes something different in adulthood. And then knowing a few things to look for astrologically.
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by SteveS » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:07 am

I understand Jim.

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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:12 am

Re: "I'm not sure 3H should be thought of as brothers and sisters..."

That goes directly against my research experience, where the 3rd can firmly be seen to relate to Brothers/Sisters. (though of course, there are many other potential meanings to that House)

Just in my life, alone, for instance...

I have siblings born under all of the following primary directions!

Moon contacts 3rd (0° 2' orb) [Brother Tony]

3rd contacts Sun (0° 2') [Sister Jamie]

Sun contacts 3rd (0° 4') [Brother David]

3rd contacts Venus (0° 2') [Brother Darin]

Average orb: 0° 2.5' of arc

These were positive events (Moon, Sun, Venus). For negative planets, for instance Saturn aspecting the 3rd (0° 3'), we would expect negative, separative events; correct in this case, the death of my Brother Darin.

If the 3rd can so firmly be seen to be correct in the Topocentric Primary Direction system (and I have seen it in hundreds of events in primary directions) as specifically relating to events with brothers and sisters, I suspect it is safe to assume it would potentially have a similar meaning/relevance in natal character and life analysis.

My 3rd House has Pluto in it. Conceptially, Pluto would suggest power elements/struggles, heavier psychological themes, but perhaps most of all, isolation. My older Brother Tony, I didn't even know about until I was past 50 years old. My two Brothers, David and Darin, grew up with our Mother; and my two Sisters, Jamie and Jan, grew up with our Father. I grew up with my Grandparents.

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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:09 am

So you're looking at it from synastry. Fair enough. Thank you.

At the moment, though, my question regards the natal on its own: No forecasting, no synastry, nothing outside the original natal. (And no house rulerships.) If there is a planet in the 3rd, and if there are siblings, does the 3rd house reliably describe the experience of and relationship to the siblings?

And, for the record, I didn't exclude siblings from 3H; I spoke of them in that paragraph one specialized case of something more general. The sentence you quoted was from this paragraph:
...In theory, I'm not sure 3H should be thought of as brothers and sisters so much as "local" connections, people who (more or less) live only a yard or a block away (hence the traditional connection to neighbors). 3H sibs less as sibs and more of "your closest neighbor." In principle, 3H (being the first area of space rising from IC) is our first, closest steps away from home, the first, short, well-leashed, narrow-range ventures of looking out into the world and exploring (but don't leave the yard, figuratively). When one moves away, sibs stopping being sibs (closest neighbors) per se and become more of the general pool of "family."
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Veronica » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:12 am

I have nothing in my 3rd house and I do have 5 siblings.

It seems though that it is possible that what I experienced as sibling relationships is more a kin to fellow trauma survivors and not typical sibling relationships. So while I feel like I would have to have a planet of some sort here to show all it at least one of them....I dont.

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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:44 am

Veronica wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:12 am
I have nothing in my 3rd house and I do have 5 siblings.

It seems though that it is possible that what I experienced as sibling relationships is more a kin to fellow trauma survivors and not typical sibling relationships. So while I feel like I would have to have a planet of some sort here to show all it at least one of them....I dont.
One of the things that has become abundantly clear - if we are to place any confidence in houses at all - is that absence of a message from a house doesn't mean anything at all. It just means that one part of the chart isn't saying something specific. We get our messages from some other part; and, in any case, the whole chart (the whole character) is what speaks best about everything about us.

What you describe as (I might call) 'extended' sibling connections sounds to me like your Aquarius Sun. It's how you relate to categories of people like that.

With what I've been developing while writing the current chapters, I would have estimated that (as children, not as adults) your sibling connections would have been distant. I see two things (besides the sometimes impersonal quality of your Aquarius Sun). First, you have Pluto on Nadir, which usually speaks to disruption, separation, or distance in the relationships with those in your formative environment (early family etc.). Secondly, you have a foreground Mars and middleground Moon (with Mars intensified further by the Scorpio Moon) - Mars stronger than Venus. This usually means that sibling rivalry is stronger than sibling affinity.

Then, of course, we have to mix that in with the general impersonal compassion of your Aquarius Sun and (somewhat) angular planets.
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Re: Specialized Inquiries: Collateral Relatives

Post by Veronica » Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:21 pm

Even though I know it is not true, it seems as if the whole world revolved around the dramas of sibling rivalry. I know that in my house there were happy and pleasant times, but those bad times were so ugly and violent. ....the physical fighting I saw as a child was scary.

But I see that is just because of my own limited senses and seeing things that are in resonance with my own self. Sometimes I read these threads and just think the worst about Scorpio.

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