Lance: Chart Discussion

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Lance
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Personally, this really would be the first time I really noticed the SLR without any transits to blame.

Which leads perfectly into my next question.

Is there a peak to the SLR phenomena?

Any hypothesis as to why I should only really notice it through a preponderance of incidents all occurring only within these past five days?

Thank you for your patience.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:35 pm

Not a peak as such, no,. It reliably starts about a day before it occurs and lasts until succeeded.

To figure out why something stirred things now, I'd have to look at a dozen or more things, any of which could have been a trigger. (I don't really have time for that right now, but maybe somebody else could check the entire arsenal of valid techniques.)
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:24 pm

Oh no, that’s not necessary. I just had the question about peaks.

Thank you.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Fri May 11, 2018 7:46 am

Looking back, I don’t think that was my correct SLR. I can’t reproduce it.

F.

Smh.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri May 11, 2018 8:01 am

Lance wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:46 am
Looking back, I don’t think that was my correct SLR. I can’t reproduce it.
When you wrote on April 30, Moon was in late Libra.

Yes, I think you made a calculation error, but there's interesting stuff. First, the April 13 SLR was quite a nice one - Venus setting (exactly opposite your Mercury) and, especially, Jupiter on EP. Venus and Jupiter in foreground opposition (closer mundanely than ecliptically).

But you'd also recently had your Demi-SLR. This occurred April 26 and would have been felt from about the 25th. It's predominantly Mars-Pluto + Uranus (well-suited to breaking things, injuries, etc.). Uranus is 2°24' above Descendant. Mars and Pluto are each 7° east of IC and conjunct (0°16').
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Sun May 13, 2018 4:46 am

Guess I’m going to have to start taking the Demi seriously too.

Thanks for the read.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 13, 2018 8:31 am

Lance wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:46 am
Guess I’m going to have to start taking the Demi seriously too.
I take them as essentially as strong as the full lunars, but for a shorter period of time.
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 pm

Mental Health - t Saturn/r Neptune Pattern

I'm a little hesitant to go into this, but I'm more interested in feedback and correction if there is any.

I have a mood disorder. I don't really want to go into it very far for privacy sake, but I have to give the basic context.

There have been two times in my life when it really flared up very badly. Both times, seven years apart, I was not medicated at the origin of the flare-up. That's never going to happen again, by the way, but that's how it happened twice.

Both times, I went manic and delusional. Both times coincided with a Saturn transit to my natal Neptune - square the first time, conjunct the second. Both times, it was a three-pass event, pass, retrograde, then pass again. And both times, the flare-up only occurred on the third and final pass. The first time, the square was partile. The second time, the conjunction was a few days short of becoming partile when it started.

What I've also noticed is that the quality of the mania and delusion followed the influence of the other active transits at the time.

The first time, the original nature of the mania was definitely euphoric.
Jupiter partile square Uranus
Jupiter partile semisquare Neptune

The second time, the original nature of the mania was definitely dysphoric (angry).
Pluto partile square Mars

This is huge for me... This means it's predictable. Full dose on the meds. Should be okay.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:18 pm

Thanks for sharing this with us, Lance. We don't have nearly enough data on this, so there are surely important things to learn from it.
Lance wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:06 pm
I have a mood disorder. I don't really want to go into it very far for privacy sake, but I have to give the basic context.
The particular disorder is symbolically a best-fit for Aries; but I suspect you will agree that Libra's symbolism is hardly a bad fit. I don't know if that's an actual astrological fit, but it's a reasonable guess. I'm just thinking aloud as I think my way through this natal analysis.)

What I think is more certain is that Libra - from the strong Saturn - is prone to lean on the depressed side of normal (i.e., of the statistical norm). The Pisces Moon is hardly a "mood disorder" placement all by itself, but adding that Neptune theme into a slight depressive tendency amplifies it.

I also note your acute Moon-Jupiter-Pluto T-square in the immediate background. In terms of natal potential for a biological unbalance, I think this must be the key aspect. One can break this apart - a bit of Moon 'destabilization' from Pluto alternating with Jupiter effects. In general, though, if you think about the character traits of your Moon-Jupiter-Pluto I think you will find clues to this particular pattern and perhaps conditions you can change to rebalance it.

In issues of mental health, one rightly can wonder whether a cause is more organic, neurological, purely psychological, hormonal, other chemical... and the horoscope should be able to tell us which of these body systems is most likely to stir up some problems. For example, you have a close Venus-Saturn square in the background: I'm pretty sure you have a hormonal imbalance that could be physically identified (perhaps correctible by medication, perhaps by diet, perhaps by behavior or cognitive changes) - but I'd certainly recommend that you check that piece of biochemistry.

You have a lot of planets that are fine-to-positive and likely don't show such a problem, e.g., Sun or Mercury. I'm not going to attempt an elaborate astro-psychiatric breakdown (I'm just rambling), but I think this afflicted Venus pattern shows an area of biological vulnerability, and the Moon-Jupiter-Pluto shows very powerful intrapsychic things that are tied to this condition.
Both times coincided with a Saturn transit to my natal Neptune
Clearly, transiting Saturn to natal Neptune is symbolically correct and one might think we don't have to look further. You, of course, can dig through the usual fine-points of the aspect to see if there are particular clues to attitudes, ways or responding to the world, etc. that are helpful to you.

I was wondering, though, if there is something thus far unrecognized about your Neptune. It's middleground. Its aspects are not all that unusual (it aspects Uranus and Pluto, and has a wide trine to Moon - which isn't close to being the closest Moon aspect, though it gains a boost from Moon being in Pisces).

The answer might be in midpoints. Your Neptune is 19' from the Mercury/Saturn midpoint, 33' from Mars/MC. I don't have Ebertin at hand for fine points but, generally, Ne = Me/Sa = Ma/MC looks psychiatrically interesting. Me/Sa corresponds to ordered thought, mental labor, restricted communication channels - it's a little depressive naturally, tends toward controlled states of mind. Ma/MC deals with ego-dynamics, assertion into the world, feeling the freedom to hurl yourself into self-originated dynamic action as an unfurling of will, etc. One begins to anticipate parental or other environmental control issues, diffused anger issues, spinning wheels about how to act in the fact of blockages - the usual fare from being human ;) Since you have Neptune semi-square Uranus, this links to the strong Uranus midpoints of Ur = Sun/Mars = Mars/Asc. It might be worth looking into these a bit deeper.
What I've also noticed is that the quality of the mania and delusion followed the influence of the other active transits at the time.
This is the most fascinating detail, in the sense of learning something new - and it totally fits general principles!
This is huge for me... This means it's predictable. Full dose on the meds. Should be okay.
I can see that this is a really big deal - quite powerful knowledge. Very cool.

Interestingly, the strongest transiting factors right now (as you are discovering this) are Saturn conjunct your Jupiter and square your Pluto - the planets aspecting that background Moon. I suspect this is an after-effect of Uranus' opposition to your Sun - something set in motion on self-exploration with that. Not sure where this line of thought will lead, just observing what's there.

You're also about 6 months short of a progressed New Moon - a fresh start - two months after a progressed Moon-Neptune conjunction (did something during that transit stir up memories of the earlier cycles - making them a bit too close to feel secure?). You're exactly at a progressed Venus-Mars conjunction (despite the usual expected behaviors and events, this sets hormones into wider swings, I think).
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:52 pm

Lance wrote:
I have a mood disorder. There have been two times in my life when it really flared up very badly. Both times, seven years apart, I was not medicated at the origin of the flare-up. That's never going to happen again, by the way, but that's how it happened twice. Both times, I went manic and delusional. Both times coincided with a Saturn transit to my natal Neptune - square the first time, conjunct the second. Both times, it was a three-pass event, pass, retrograde, then pass again. And both times, the flare-up only occurred on the third and final pass. The first time, the square was partile. The second time, the conjunction was a few days short of becoming partile when it started. What I've also noticed is that the quality of the mania and delusion followed the influence of the other active transits at the time.
Jim wrote:
The answer might be in midpoints.
I agree. The American astrologer who has done the most statistical work with Midpoints is Robert Hand. Robert followed the work of Ebertin with midpoints. Robert stated, “all midpoints are not created equal.” Midpoints involving our Natal Angles and Lights are much more important according to Hands statistical work and the work by Ebertin with Midpoints. Robert’s work clearly demonstrated that DIRECT midpoints (1 degree orb or less) involving natal lights and the MC-ASC were the most important midpoints in a Natal Chart. Lance, you have 13 Direct Midpoints in your Natal Chart and Robert Hand would rate your Neptune/MC = Moon 1,00 as the most potent midpoint in your Natal Chart, because it is the only one involving both a Natal Light and an Angle, your MC, which involves a malefic, Neptune. I would think one’s moods may be somewhat more governed by our Natal Moons. Here is what Ebertin says about psychological tones for the most important Direct Midpoint in your Natal Chart.
Nep/MC=Moon:
The tendency to revel in fanciful imaginings, an active an intense imagination, a misinterpretations of observations and perceptions, a dreamy nature, a peculiar state of feeling.
If we are to seek an answer for your ‘mood disorder’ in your Natal Chart, I strongly suspect by Robert Hand’s & Ebertin’s work, we can isolate this Nep/MC=Moon as the malefic astrological cause & effect for your ‘mood disorder’ at times in your life. 0,90,180 malefic transits to one of the 3 planets making-up this Direct Midpoint offers you very high probability for isolating the times in your life when your ‘mood disorder’ may flare-up. I hope this helps you in your life for better management for your possible ‘mood disorder.’ at certain times in your life.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:41 am

Thank you both. You've given me a lot to digest.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:01 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:18 pm
I also note your acute Moon-Jupiter-Pluto T-square in the immediate background. In terms of natal potential for a biological unbalance, I think this must be the key aspect. One can break this apart - a bit of Moon 'destabilization' from Pluto alternating with Jupiter effects. In general, though, if you think about the character traits of your Moon-Jupiter-Pluto I think you will find clues to this particular pattern and perhaps conditions you can change to rebalance it.
Primarily, I've only considered the Jupiter/Pluto aspect, thinking the Moon just emphasized it. But now you make me think of it in terms of the Moon emphasizing two alternating (relative) opposites.

Regarding Jupiter/Pluto, in a nutshell, I want the best for myself and others, and most institutions are too inflexible, obsolete, and more interested in their own self-preservation, etc., etc... Religious institutions, political institutions, counseling license agencies, my employer - all down the line. It sounds cheesy and grandiose, but it's like the old "spirit of the prophets," challenging the current order. Nothing's good enough. I recognize this in myself. It's takes conscious effort to let institutions "be human." If I'm griping, it's usually something along these lines.

P.S. That congressional hearing yesterday with Strzok had me twisting in my seat, biting my knuckle, and cursing under my breath. If I had to sit there and take it like he did, it would probably be the end of me - standing on the desk calling on God to send down the fire. Talk about going crazy...

Confronting that which prevents the best... or knocking the dust off my feet and walking away... or both.

But like I said, you have me thinking about alternating Moon-emphasized Jupiter and Moon-emphasized Pluto. It's definitely true. I alternate between the social/anti-social poles of the two. It confuses people. They'll be expecting one version of me, and I'll present the other. I've previously just considered it an aspect of my introversion. Jupiter it up until I'm used up, then Pluto go escape, hide, and recharge.

I can't easily see the tie-in with the disorder though.

Hmm....

But the Jupiter/Pluto comes back to me as more key. I lean toward dissatisfaction and frustration with everything, seeing myself as motivated by my understanding of what's best. "Nobody cares enough not to be stupid and selfish." All the time. I really have to stay conscious not to be a scold on social media or with my extended family.

Okay, yeah.. that's a big one. Kind of angry about that all the time, which ties in to my disorder.

So that's what that is.

How might one rebalance that?

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:21 am

Lance wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:01 am
Regarding Jupiter/Pluto, in a nutshell, I want the best for myself and others, and most institutions are too inflexible, obsolete, and more interested in their own self-preservation, etc., etc... Religious institutions, political institutions, counseling license agencies, my employer - all down the line. It sounds cheesy and grandiose, but it's like the old "spirit of the prophets," challenging the current order. Nothing's good enough. I recognize this in myself. It's takes conscious effort to let institutions "be human." If I'm griping, it's usually something along these lines. ...

Confronting that which prevents the best... or knocking the dust off my feet and walking away... or both.

I lean toward dissatisfaction and frustration with everything, seeing myself as motivated by my understanding of what's best. "Nobody cares enough not to be stupid and selfish." All the time. I really have to stay conscious not to be a scold on social media or with my extended family.
These are some really good Jupiter-Pluto notes. Thanks, I'll probably be drawing on this as I revisit what I want to say about Jupiter-Pluto in the near-to-medium future.
But like I said, you have me thinking about alternating Moon-emphasized Jupiter and Moon-emphasized Pluto. It's definitely true. I alternate between the social/anti-social poles of the two. It confuses people. They'll be expecting one version of me, and I'll present the other. I've previously just considered it an aspect of my introversion. Jupiter it up until I'm used up, then Pluto go escape, hide, and recharge.

I can't easily see the tie-in with the disorder though.

Whenever I see a strong hard-aspect structure in the background, I think there's a significant chance it's going to work its way out in health issues if a person doesn't find a way to give it expression (one of the best ways being to move to where it's angular :) - but not the only way). I don't know all the ways this works out and expresses itself through your life, but you've given a good start on this.

I think you're missing the simplest thing, though: Moon shows your moods! "Moon = mood" is an astrological basic. Your moods likely swing between Moon-Jupiter (as if it existed by itself without the Pluto) and Moon-Pluto (as if it existed by itself without the Jupiter). This (according to my current line of thought) creates the pendulum effect. There is likely also a component of "under-expressed Moon," since Moon itself is background - some form of withholding, blocking, resisting being lunar (e.g., as an already empathic individual, trying not to live in conditions in which you strongly feel, react to, can't get out of your head the emotional tone of the people around you, your social context, the vibe of the room, etc., so shutting it down). I just made that one example up, to stir the idea of what an acutely background Moon would produce.

Moon responds and adapts. How effectively do you adapt to your shifting physical, psychological, and social context? From what you've said here, you adapt pretty well (and especially "acceptably") when in your Moon-Jupiter phase, but quite differently (of course) when in the Moon-Pluto phase. Perhaps the point is that these continue to live as phases rather than an integrated whole, and this produces the pendulum effect. What psychological position or life activities or relationship style change or stress management skills (or whatever) would give you a way to express all of these energies together without swinging between poles?
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:46 am

(e.g., as an already empathic individual, trying not to live in conditions in which you strongly feel, react to, can't get out of your head the emotional tone of the people around you, your social context, the vibe of the room, etc., so shutting it down). I just made that one example up, to stir the idea of what an acutely background Moon would produce.
I mean, yeah, apart from the rare bout with extreme mania, that's the day to day reason I take medicine - to reduce the volume of all that.

That was kind of freaky accurate - what you just did.

omg ... I have to go to my wife's family reunion this weekend, and the house is too small for it.

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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:06 am

Lance wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:46 am
That was kind of freaky accurate - what you just did.
ROFLMAO. It's called astrology :lol: (Also, remember, I have an angular Moon and have lived in a state of that turned on my whole life, with all the advantages, disadvantages, etc.)
omg ... I have to go to my wife's family reunion this weekend, and the house is too small for it.
Breathe. Center. Do things you know how to do to strengthen your aura.

You can use this as a laboratory. I suggest the "button" you look for is one of inauthenticity. That is, too much social lubricant. Your Moon-Pluto is going to detest, reject, rebel against inauthenticity, while Moon-Jupiter is going to use it reflexively to adapt and navigate. It might be a good opportunity to detect these things in yourself and look for authentic ways to socially adapt besides leaving or railing.

Off-the-cuff possibilities: (1) Immersiuon in the spirit of family-community. (2) Selective self-disclosure rather than falsification.

It might also be a lab for practicing giving your actuely background Moon more attention than your acutely foreground Sun: Since it's her event, not yours, can you dissolve your sense of being someone in particular into a sense of being part of the herd without being anyone in particular? (In other words, don't overdo my advice to center, but rather decentralize.)
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Re: Lance: Chart Discussion

Post by Lance » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:06 am

Yes. Thank you. These are mostly all parts of my current management strategy. Watching the kids or having nap time makes it easy to disappear for nice long stretches of time. :D

The reunion went relatively well. I don't struggle with all the same things I used to. But I also take a lot of precautions. The meds really help. And I rarely ever go a day without ordering my mind and psyche with visualization techniques.

Still. it was exhausting all around, but in a pretty normal kind of way.

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