Pluto & Sagittarius

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Beanies+Bad habits
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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by Beanies+Bad habits » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:04 pm

See Jove you come across as firey at least to me. I may not be in touch with Neptune or Mars, however Venus undertones my chart at least in my Lunar side. Also if there is any foot hold in the Navamsa then I have a Sun-Venus in addition that aspect being in Cancer. [Take Jim's in the kitchen sign cancer literally in me, as I'm studying to be a chef lmao].

[Jim said the Moon and Neptune are similar and it is easy to fold in Venus here as well].

There are undertones that run through Cancer, Sagittarius, and Pisces. These stem from being like Jupiter (and being somewhat unlike Mercury-Saturn-Pluto).

Cancer and Pisces however then have a duel connect because both can be very much like Neptune/Moon/Venus (being most unlike Mars and again unlike Mercury-Pluto-Saturn), the overlap perhaps could be called open receptivity.
I would use Jim's "double down" to describe their connection, triple down even if you want to account for "watery element".

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by James Condor » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:26 am

I read once on the forum, I don't know where it is now, Jim wrote about Mercury being 'on point ' whereas Jupiter and Neptune being' around the point'. This stuck with me. It makes sense and helps me distinguish.

I have before thought Pluto and Sag together, however, I like if Gemini had an exaltation, it be in Pluto, which could 'shadow' Sagittarius. Then we'd see them in opposite fashion, like yin-yang.

Mercury might be fixed in the 'on point,' and work from that point first whereas Jupiter and Neptune are fixed on the 'a round the point' and work from that point first.

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by James Condor » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:50 am

I was thinking- if Pluto dignified in Aries, Libra opposite Aries, Pisces and Taurus adjacent Aries then Venus is opposite Pluto or anti Pluto? Not Jupiter.
Or Pluto not dignified in Aries
If Pluto dignified in Gemini then is either Moon or Venus( Taurus) anti Pluto. Or is the former sign not apart of the antithesis but only the latter adjacent sign and opposite sign (Jupiter-Cancer and Sag)

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:59 am

James Condor wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:50 am
...Venus is opposite Pluto or anti Pluto?
A lot of astrologers would say that (though most of them Tropicalists, thinking of it as a Taurus-Scorpio polarity). Based on the natures of the planets, I'd also tend to say they are quite contrary in nature.
Not Jupiter.

The two aren't exclusive. (After all, Jupiter is primarily "opposite" Saturn, and Venus is primarily "opposite" Mars.) Venus and Jupiter have a great deal in common that is contrary to Pluto's nature. For example, Venus and Jupiter are both socially motivated, which is quite contrary to Pluto's isolation. (I'm sure that, with some reflection and developing the idea, there's a whole article one could write about the subtleties of this.)
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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by Beanies+Bad habits » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:09 pm

I like to think Sag is like Jupiter and unlike Pluto-Mercury, all three of those planets are strong in my chart (perhaps explaining why I don't understand Sagittarius, because not unlike Mercury and I'm definitely like Pluto).

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by James Condor » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:14 am

Thanks Jim.
I agree with Raksasa in Sag opposite Gemini therefor Jupiter opposite Mercury and Pluto but Jupiter is not also opposite Mercury and or Pluto rather adjacent too. I suppose Jupiter is opposite Saturn with Cancer/Capricorn. With Cancer/Gemini, Mercury is adjacent not opposite and the Moon comes into question. With Sag and Cap, it’s adjacent not opposite. Jupiter and Saturn are definetly dichotomies and I see them as each other’s antithesis no doubt
Again the framework comes into question for me.

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:23 am

That framework was never meant to support the weight so often put on it. It's a mnemonic. It's not this GOD rules that sign, but this sign has some of (not all of!) the characteristics of that planet's influence. A planet that "rules" a sign lends a different kind of conditioning to the sign than one where it's exalted. And vice-versa. A planet in a sign it rules is conditioned by the sign differently than in one in which it's exalted.

It's difficult to move away from the schematism that was inserted in the old mnemonic, but I think if you can do that, you'll have (re)discovered something of great value.

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by By Jove » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:16 pm

Raksasa wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:09 pm
I like to think Sag is like Jupiter and unlike Pluto-Mercury, all three of those planets are strong in my chart (perhaps explaining why I don't understand Sagittarius, because not unlike Mercury and I'm definitely like Pluto).
Well I'm also a somewhat "Plutonian" Sag so I can see where we're coming from. Again, outer planet exaltations are not as established in the Fagan school of sidereal astrology as in tropical astrology while Vedic astrology relies only on the classic seven.

Neither are outer planet exaltations equally established. Uranus exalted in Scorpio is the most certain placement while Pluto exalted in Gemini is a solid idea. Neptune's exaltation is the least certain. I personally would guess Cancer.

I personally believe that if we are going to best understand the signs through their "ruling" planets it is best to start with their traditional "rulers". It's too easy to get carried away with speculations about things like outer planet exaltations.

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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:17 pm

I dont think of polarities so much in terms of sign oppositions. I think of polarities by other means and they don't work always by sign polarities. For example, Aries-Libra polarizes Pluto and Saturn, which are strikingly alike in some ways. This tells you more about Aries and Libra than it tells you about Saturn and Pluto.
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Re: Pluto & Sagittarius

Post by James Condor » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:19 pm

Interesting

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