Angular Pluto project

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Jim Eshelman
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Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Welcome to the Angular Pluto discussion project, which will run June 22 - July 5, 2021 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Pluto Angular people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

CRITERA: Planets within 7° of major angles (Asc-Dsc, MC-IC) and 2° of minor angles (Zenith-Nadir, EP-WP). For Pluto it is especially important to assess proximity to horizon and meridian in prime vertical longitude, squares to MC and Asc in longitude, and RA contact to EP and WP in right ascension - because for Pluto it can make quite a difference.

Here is the primary Angular Pluto interpretive resource on the forum:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=38#p191

We may also want to compare to Sun in Aries for ideas to check against our Angular Pluto examples:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=35#p167

My current concise summary of Angular Pluto reads:
Social outliers needing to be authentically themselves, without labels or arbitrary standards or expectations. Eccentric, antisocial, outrageous; won’t melt into the conventional collective. Singularly unique in their context, on their own path (vulnerable to persecution). Gentle, inoffensive, innocent, shy. Grapples with spiritual actualities. (If severely afflicted: cruel, unfeeling, inhuman.)
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:18 pm

People who have been active on this forum with Pluto angular include:
  • sotonye
  • Veronica
Furthermore, none of the Sidereal pioneers or other significant astrologers in my small collection has a foreground or angular Pluto.

U.S. Presidents include George Washington, John Quincy Adams, Franklin Pierce, U.S. Grant, James A. Garfield, and George W. Bush. I see no obvious commonality in these six men. - The Bradley study of murderers showed Pluto foreground frequently, and I can offer William Heirens, Myra Hindley, Susan Atkins, Mark David Chapman, Lyle Menendez, James Holmes, and O.J. Simpson (add Josef Mengele).

Some famous people with Pluto angular:
  • Pres. George Washington, Pres. John Quincy Adams, Pres. Franklin Pierce, Pres. U.S. Grant, Pres. James A. Garfield, Pres. George W. Bush, King Louis XIV, King George III, Queen Victoria, Queen Elizabeth II
  • VP Al Gore, Sec. Pete Buttigieg, Charles Prince of Wales, Prince William, Camilla Parker-Bowles
  • William Heirens, Myra Hindley, Susan Atkins, Charles Whitman, Mark David Chapman, Lyle Menendez, James Holmes, O.J. Simpson (add Josef Mengele)
  • Carl Jung, JonBenet Ramsey, L. Ron Hubbard, Lee Iacocca, Leona Helmsley, Malcom X, Manly Palmer Hall, Mata Hari, Patty Hearst, Prince, Richard Branson, Robin Williams
Besides the two forum members listed above, I have a small list of 17 other people I knew/know sufficiently well with Pluto angular by the above criteria. I'll recheck everything against these examples (which include my first wife and my niece). Interestingly, four of our closest associates in the wine sales industry are on the list: I need to examine whether independent self-employment and a general entrepreneurial approach is part of the profile (as a variant of "going it alone").
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Parto » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:25 pm

I've been reflecting on the (Eshelman or Fagan?) quote: "Pluto is the essence of innocence."

For the examples I have, even if the rest of the chart is quite heavy (e.g., great capacity for aggression), the strong angular Pluto grants these people a quality unlike any other that I can distinguish astrologically, and innocence might just be the right word for it. Even the dark, ugly side of them is different. It's hard coming up with descriptors. Angelic? Not quite human. Or perhaps the most human. Maybe fairies.

The part about their being "cruel, unfeeling, inhuman" if Pluto is severely afflicted is interesting: just the fact of Pluto being afflicted clearly doesn't produce that.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:07 am

In trying to contribute something I reflected that my Angular Pluto was squared by transiting Pluto, 3 times (I'm pretty sure I got that right) in 2008.

My Pluto is at 4 degrees Virgo, almost 5, and my Asc is 5 Gem. It is also configured (square) with my strongest MidPoint of Venus/Mars.

It would seem that my SSR and Lunars for that year would be very telling of what was going on then.

I do believe that was the year I finally had both children in school, that I really tried to live lighter and softer on earth (gardening, looking into alternative energy, chickens/ducks, Mother Jones, community sharing/responses/ involvement.

It was also the year that I had police at my door about to arrest me for fraud and falsify legal documents because apparently my dad had been using my name and signature on legal forms for years with out my knowledge. With the threat of going to Jail, my confrontation with dad about this turned into a gross Piscean moon display on his behalf (in front of my kids) telling me to beat and whip him. I kicked him out of my home and didn't speak to him for almost 2 years.

That also was the time that I got my son involved in Cub Scouts and became first a Den Mother and Then the Cub Master. Best times in my life!

This was also when my husband, who had quit drinking in 2006, started to really show signs of opiate abuse and basically stopped sleeping in bed with me.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:26 pm

Jim said
": I need to examine whether independent self-employment and a general entrepreneurial approach is part of the profile (as a variant of "going it alone").

I fondly remember going into an abandoned home as a child with my older brother and coming home with an antique shoe shine box filled with polish and brushes and I made quite a lot of money cleaning boots and shoes and coats and purses.

I also as a child would bait blood suckers in the creek and catch minnows and worms to sell to the fishermen.
That job really sucked.

I also would collect cans and bottles for the refund.

As a preteen I made jewelry to sell to my classmates, and I would sell my dads beer and my moms smokes.

Once I was able to babysit I made an insane amount of money.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by SteveS » Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:58 am

Veronica wrote:
Once I was able to babysit I made an insane amount of money.
Have you considered babysitting again?

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:15 pm

SteveS wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 5:58 am
Veronica wrote:
Once I was able to babysit I made an insane amount of money.
Have you considered babysitting again?
Oh yes, many times. I have thought about running a daycare (my sister and I ran one for few years. As well as operated as independent agents running parenting classes for court ordered families and not for profits)

I registered at care.com before I got my last job at the library.

It's a lot of work and responsibility and the pay does not reflect it's true value.

I love taking care of babies and kids though. I really have so much fun. I do not want my kiddos making me a granny anytime soon though.

I've considered farming worms, the world desperately needs more decomposers to process waste. That job as well does not pay very well anymore, but I am hoping that with Bill Gates goobling up all the farm land for sale that he will invested heavily in permaculture agricultural practice.....

I'd really love something completely different like rehabilitating old homes and making them new and beautiful for families. Or maybe working at a museum restoring and preserving things.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:23 am

Veronica wrote:
Oh yes, many times. I love taking care of babies and kids though.
Always endeavor to do what you love to do…..I think you have a great mind the kids can enjoy and relate to. When the kids like you...you will always have great references from their parents. :)

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:53 am

Parto wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:25 pm
I've been reflecting on the (Eshelman or Fagan?) quote: "Pluto is the essence of innocence."

For the examples I have, even if the rest of the chart is quite heavy (e.g., great capacity for aggression), the strong angular Pluto grants these people a quality unlike any other that I can distinguish astrologically, and innocence might just be the right word for it. Even the dark, ugly side of them is different. It's hard coming up with descriptors. Angelic? Not quite human. Or perhaps the most human. Maybe fairies.

The part about their being "cruel, unfeeling, inhuman" if Pluto is severely afflicted is interesting: just the fact of Pluto being afflicted clearly doesn't produce that.
I had wanted to respond to this, but I gave myself some time to gather myself......

My initial response, was a very deep pain of not being understood, again.
My next response was a very ugly F♡(£ YOU....
I am not a changeling. I am not a fairy. I am not a demon or alien or inhuman or more human!!!
I bleed, I cry, I dream and hope and worry and work and try.....
And I am sick and tired of being called names, and treated like I'm different.
The poster may have thought with his " innocent" remarks that the underlaying message that there are those among us who are seemingly inherently biologically not the same, and an angular Pluto is the tip off so we know who is who.....
I am not going for any train ride thank you very much.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:14 am

Good-morning, Veronica,

I always feel a little guilty when I want to celebrate the fact that something kinda bad happened - and that astrology showed it spectacularly.

Your Demi-Lunar Return set up last night. It's as clear a chart as could be for (I guess I'd call it) feeling dehumanized, shoved out, excluded - and having it feel really personal.

Venus and Mars oppose Saturn along the meridian square Uranus on EP. Moon rises. Moon is the most angular planet, 1°02' above Asc. Venus is second most angular. Of the foreground aspects, Venus opposite Saturn (also 1°02') is the closest - oh, except for that beautiful, gracious square of Jupiter to your rising Moon (0°59'), plus natal Jupiter-Neptune closely setting.
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:12 am

You called me by my name and said good morning.

That's what people do to other people.

Thank you for always being kind and understanding.

I am a human being and thank you always treating me as one, no matter how different I seem.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Parto » Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:14 am

Veronica, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I don't want you (or anyone) to feel misunderstood or excluded. Your words have caused me to reflect on mine.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:06 am

Parto wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:14 am
Veronica, I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I don't want you (or anyone) to feel misunderstood or excluded. Your words have caused me to reflect on mine.
Parto
Thank you.

To clarify though.....
Life itself is depth of feeling.
Everything feels, senses, and in it's own way interprets the information/data/experience.
Those deep deep feelings of not being understood/ of being misperceived/ and rejected/branded that arose in me when I read "your" string of words that on the surface imply Good/nice/ideal qualities, were already made inside me. You didn't make me feel anything that was not already in me.

I tried to ignore what you had said,
I guess I gaslight myself.....
But it has been such a chronic theme in my life,.....people thinking it is okay to name call, to use language that separates us. It's the status quo, and I know I do it myself even though I try to mind my thoughts and heart.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:44 am

Jim,

In looking at your consise delineation, I think that
" Grapples with spiritual actualities" should be the first sentence because everything else you observed comes from that core.

Actualities possibly being accentuated, to differ from the potentialities from other ambiguities like Neptunian influences.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:23 pm

Veronica wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:44 am
In looking at your consise delineation, I think that " Grapples with spiritual actualities" should be the first sentence because everything else you observed comes from that core.
Thanks.

I'm not sure most Pluto people would agree (i.e. recognize themselves) with that, though. Even if I shifted it a little to "existential" instead of "spiritual," there would be objection to the labelling. (As I look over he list, I see many who identify with the word struggle and who really do wrestle with existential matters; but most would feel uncomfortable with that labelling.

Unlike most people in my Pluto list, you have several connection-merger planets strong, especially your Moon and Neptune. For most Pluto angular people I know, the sense of separation that is so painful to you is one of the few things that isn't painful for them, What seems most true to them is that they are different from everyone else (or, perhaps, that everyone is so different from everyone else). Several have told me that they're not sure they're part of the human species. They're all reasonable people who factually know that they were born on Earth but don't have a hard time holding the fantasy that their real parents dropped them off here on the way past Earth. The sense of being alien and separate is so acute. If not literally feeling alien, several definitely had to leave where they grew up and have clean breaks with family out of a sense that they have nothing in common with "their people."

You, on the other hand, are not so disposed to separate when you have a chance to connect. I think that's Moon-Neptune-Jupiter all together and angular.

(This "I'm not a part of the people I came from" isn't present in the elite who have had literal and figurative dynastic roles, such as Queen Elizabeth II, Prince Charles (and other monarchs), John and John Q. Adams, George W. Bush. But even in this group you have the "break-out" figures like Patty Hearst. This is a side of Pluto I've never considered: I'm going to think through which side of Pluto is being brought out in them.)
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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Veronica » Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:50 am

Jim,

It is cool how I sat with those words, faerie, in human ect for quite some time (I read it when it was first posted) before I felt the need and ability to speak up, and what felt like a spontaneous taking advantage of a moment in time, clearly showed up in my chart.

I am curious, and dont have any clue how to find out on my own, what percentage of the human population has Pluto Angular? It's such a slow planet, would more people tend to be born with it Angular in different eras ie when it was in virgo or Sag? So that in my age group there maybe an upsurge(?) In the potentially/ chance of more people having this aspect? Or would more people like Area in different global locations have it more?

It struck me as odd that there is little showing for this trait in astrologers. Gave me pause to think, and to reflect about how I really struggle to follow what you all are talking about sometimes, and how it is my personal Angular Pluto expression (grappling with those merger needs I have in spades as well) that drove my life long seeking to know myself and what that means all the way down to the itty bittist things in me.

Most Angular Pluto people would not be posting on a forum for anyone anywhere anytime to read.

But, I believe you are right to express our grappling nature at the end. We are such a fragile and delicate kind and the world already excludes and defines and alienates us, that I truly feel that seeing those naked striped down exposed of a personal need that is protected tighter then fort knox......would not be kind or helpful to any and could further alienate and push away a sincere seeker of truth.

So yeah, leave it as it is. I see nothing to improve.

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Re: Angular Pluto project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:54 pm

Veronica wrote:
Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:50 am
I am curious, and dont have any clue how to find out on my own, what percentage of the human population has Pluto Angular?
If we take all angles equally, its's the same for al l planets. For close (Class 1 angularity, within 3°), it's about 7-8%. For moderate (Class 2 angularity, within 7°) it's a little more than 16%.
It's such a slow planet, would more people tend to be born with it Angular in different eras ie when it was in virgo or Sag?
No. This kind of variation would be true if we considered a single angle; but during eras when Pluto takes longer to cross Descendant, it also takes less time to cross Ascendant (for example), so these average out.
Most Angular Pluto people would not be posting on a forum for anyone anywhere anytime to read.
I think you're right.
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