Pluto true mundane position

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Daniel148
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Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:55 am

Hello ,
In my natal chart Pluto has latitude 17°22'32" N
I was born at 48n00 northern cordinate
Pluto is conjunct by parallel of declination with Asc with orb of 1°6' by declination
Pluto by standart calculation of houses in the end of the 2H .
Could be the true mundane position of Pluto in 1H ?
How to find true mundane position for planets with big latitude in SolarFire 9 software ?

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:37 am

It very well COULD be...

Look at Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's horoscope as an example. Graphic snippets are linked, below...

Pluto appears some 42° or so before the Ascendant, when measured in ecliptical longitude. (not even remotely conjunct)

In Prime Vertical Longitude, it's 1° 39' after the Ascendant. (relatively tightly conjunct)

http://www.james-alexander.de/PVL_1.PNG

http://www.james-alexander.de/PVL_2.PNG

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:35 am

Thanks ,
i know this example of Sir Conan but in his case the ecliptical latitude which is southern and being born in north which are opposite
allowed such angularity but in my case ecliptical latitude is northern and i was born relatively in the north
so this effect might be nullified . i would be glad to know how to check this out in SolarFire software .

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by SteveS » Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:37 am

Daniel asked:
How to find true mundane position for planets with big latitude in SolarFire 9 software?
Daniel, try this with Solarfire.
1: Highlight your Natal Chart or any chart. 2: Then Keystroke F-6. 3: Then under the list of “Chart Type to Generate” choose (highlight) “Z-Analogue Prime Vert” 4: Then keystroke the OK button.

This will generate a chart giving the true mundane planetary positions (orbs) to the angles, as well as true mundane aspects. Let me know if this works for you. I always try and remember to check true mundane positions of charts so I leave Solarfire defaulted to “Z-Analogue Prime Vertical” using the F-6 Key.

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:19 am

Thank you Steve ,
It works and i see my Pluto move from the end of the 2H closer to the begining of it so not much of a deffernce .
How do you interpret a trine between venus and jupiter with orb of 5 degrees turns in mundane aspect to exact trine with orb of 37 minutes .
And another thing an exact opposition between mercury and pluto with orb less than 1 degree becomes in mundane aspect to an opposition
with a wide orb of almost 5 degrees ?
It seems like in this 2 cases mundane aspects are more favourable in my case .
What aspects are more important mundane or ecliptic and what is the difference between them ?

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:59 am

Welcome to Solunars, Daniel.

You didn't give your birth data, or I could give you more concrete information. However, here is an easy solution: A member of this site, Mikestar13, is developing a free astrological program called TMSA ("Time Matters Sidereal Astrology"). You can download and install it here:
https://solunars.com/viewforum.php?f=60
All charts show the PV longitude and correct house placement of all planets.

I'm guessing that if Pluto, at 17N declination and your latitude, looks like it's in 2H, then it will be spatially (PV longitude) located as if it were about 3° earlier in longitude. (The parallel of declination isn't a direct factor for the question you asked.)

Meanwhile, Steve has helped you with Solar Fire directions.
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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:11 am

Daniel148 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:19 am
How do you interpret a trine between venus and jupiter with orb of 5 degrees turns in mundane aspect to exact trine with orb of 37 minutes .
I'm not sure that mundane trines are valid, i.e., I've only been able to substantiate that the conjunctions, oppositions, and squares are valid that way. Nonetheless, the general rule on "aspect is wider ecliptically and closer in mundo" is really simple: Go with the closer one. No change in interpretation.

The principle is this: Aspects show connection between two planets. The orb shows the amplitude (intensity) of that connection. Consider that there are traits that we woulld call Venus-Jupiter-ness. As Venus' elongation from Jupiter increases around the 360° of the circle, it moves in and out of aspect and this amplitude rises and falls. If, by one legitimate way, you have the Venus-Jupiter relationship at an 80% strength, while in another legitimate way you have the Venus-Jupiter relationship at a 95% strength, it's not two different aspects - it's one relationship, one set of character qualities, that are at 95% strength.

Similarly with your Mercury-Pluto: In this case, the ecliptical is closer. Go with the closer.

BTW, the TMSA program I recommended to you above does all of this calculation for you and displays the closer of the two in the aspect table.
What aspects are more important mundane or ecliptic and what is the difference between them ?
As far as I can tell, there is no difference - they are equally important. However, I can only substantiate that the hard aspects are valid in mundo. For the most part, the interpretation is identical, though it may be that the mundane aspects are more "eventish." This interpretation is based on observation of charts and lives, but the theory of this would be that the mundane framework - the house framework, so to speak - has always been considered by astrologers to manifest outwardly. However, I don't think this at all impedes their description of character.

See this thread for discussion of that topic:
https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4540
Jim Eshelman
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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:45 am

Hello Jim ,
Thank you , glad to be here .
My birth data : 16.05.1984
Donetsk
Ukrain .

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by SteveS » Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:55 am

Daniel, if you will post your birth data, Mike, Jim, and I can help you see more important data for your Natal.

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:01 am

Daniel148 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 7:45 am
My birth data : 16.05.1984
Donetsk
Ukrain .
Time?
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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:05 am

Steve ,
sorry here is with the time :
16.05.1984
14:30 PM
Donetsk
Ukrain .

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:51 am

Thanks. The really exciting aspect in your chart is the nearly exact, very tightly angular Moon-Uranus conjunction in Scorpio but, of course, there are others. As you noted, your Mercury-Pluto opposition is most exact ecliptically.

Here is your chart as calculated by Mike's TMSA software (linked above) below the chart "wheel" are valuable tables that show various data on each planet (including its relative angularity) and the relative strength of aspects (ecliptical and mundane interwoven). The chart diagram does place the planets proportionately in the houses according to PV longitude, rather than by longitude, and the PV longitude is given on the chart wheel next to the zodiacal longitude. - You can scroll inside the green text below, or save the whole content off to Notepad, where it will display well.

Code: Select all

 +-------------15Ge11-----------16Ta40-----------19Ar48--------------+
 |                |                |                |                |
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 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |Se 13Ar32 20°59'|
 |                |                |                |                |
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 |                |                |                |Me 06Ar10 14°17'|
 |                |                |Su 01Ta13 12°47'|                |
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 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |Ve 22Ar59 03°29'|                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 17Cn03-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------21Pi46
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |Er 21Pi23 22°34'|
 |                |            Daniel148            |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |              Natal              |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |    16 May 1984 14:30:00 MSD     |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |        Donetsk, Ukraine         |                |
 |   Ep 13Le26    |                                 |                |
 |                |      48N00'57" 037E48'05"       |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |           UT 10:30:00           |                |
 20Le31-----------+                                 +-----------20Aq31
 |                |         RAMC 69°37'15"          |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |          OE 23°26'32"           |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         SVP 05Pi28'58"          |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         Sidereal Zodiac         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |         Campanus Houses         |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |            * * * * *            |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 |                |                                 |                |
 21Vi46-----------+----------------+----------------+-----------17Cp03
 |                |                |Mo 17Sc25 00°45'|                |
 |                |                |Ur 17Sc43 01°10'|                |
 |                |Ma 24Li30 05°16'|                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |Pl 05Li32 09°34'|                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |Ne 06Sg25 21°29'|                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |                |                |                |                |
 |Sa 17Li35 27°13'|                |                |Ju 18Sg01 02°51'|
 |                |                |                |                |
 +-------------19Li48-----------16Sc40-----------15Sg11--------------+


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 17Sc24'43" 00S30 +13°42' 250°21' 22S43 358°25' -64°41'  90°45' 100% F
Su 01Ta12'48" 00S00 + 0°58'  53°24' 19N12 210°09' +58°19' 252°47'  38%  
Me 06Ar09'38" 03S20 + 0°46'  29°44' 08N35 233°48' +38°12' 224°17'  16% B
Ve 22Ar58'59" 00S56 + 1°14'  45°19' 16N10 220°25' +52°25' 243°29'   3% B
Ma 24Li29'56" 00S22 - 0°22' 226°27' 17S50  40°02' -54°24'  65°16'   7% B
Ju 18Sg00'46" 00N09 - 0°03' 283°36' 22S42 301°04' -53°00' 122°51'  36%  
Sa 17Li35'25" 02N36 - 0°04' 220°29' 13S00  44°32' -47°26'  57°13'   1% B
Ur 17Sc42'59" 00N02 - 0°02' 250°45' 22S14 357°35' -64°12'  91°10' 100% F
Ne 06Sg25'13" 01N13 - 0°01' 271°01' 22S14 318°57' -59°04' 111°29'  56%  
Pl 05Li32'08" 17N23 - 0°01' 214°00' 04N49  41°24' -28°39'  39°34'  26%  
Er 21Pi22'54" 18S20 + 0°01'  21°43' 10S40 229°55' +17°39' 202°34'  54%  
Se 13Ar32'21" 11S21 + 0°01'  39°20' 03N26 219°57' +38°24' 230°59'   5% B
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo co Ur 00°18' 100%     Mo tr Er 03°58'  70%     Su co Ve 08°14'  30%  
Me tr Ne 00°16' 100%     Su op Ma 06°43'  53%     Me co Se 07°23'  43%  
Me op Pl 00°38' 100%     Su oc Ju 01°48'  62%     Ve co Se 09°27'  10%  
Ve op Ma 01°31'  97%     Ve tr Ju 04°58'  54%     Ma sx Ju 06°29'  23%  
Ju sx Sa 00°25' 100%     Ve op Sa 05°24'  69%     Ur oc Pl 02°49'  11%  
Ne sx Pl 00°53'  98%     Ve oc Ne 01°34'  71%     Ne tr Se 07°07'   9%  
Ne sq Er 01°05'  98% M   Ma co Sa 06°55'  50%     Pl op Se 08°00'  34%  
                         Ju sq Er 03°22'  78%                           
                         Ju tr Se 04°28'  62%                           
                         Sa op Se 04°03'  82%                           
                         Ur tr Er 03°40'  74%                           
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Eshelman
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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:55 am

Here's a simpler version of the tables - fewer planets, so the aspect list is simpler. Notice that (of the aspects I chose to consider) there are no mundane aspects closer than their ecliptical counterparts (otherwise there would have been a trailing M in the aspect list).

Code: Select all

Pl Longitude   Lat   Speed    RA    Decl    Azi     Alt     PVL    Ang G
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo 17Sc24'43" 00S30 +13°42' 250°21' 22S43 358°25' -64°41'  90°45' 100% F
Su 01Ta12'48" 00S00 + 0°58'  53°24' 19N12 210°09' +58°19' 252°47'  38%  
Me 06Ar09'38" 03S20 + 0°46'  29°44' 08N35 233°48' +38°12' 224°17'  16%  
Ve 22Ar58'59" 00S56 + 1°14'  45°19' 16N10 220°25' +52°25' 243°29'   3%  
Ma 24Li29'56" 00S22 - 0°22' 226°27' 17S50  40°02' -54°24'  65°16'   7%  
Ju 18Sg00'46" 00N09 - 0°03' 283°36' 22S42 301°04' -53°00' 122°51'  36%  
Sa 17Li35'25" 02N36 - 0°04' 220°29' 13S00  44°32' -47°26'  57°13'   1%  
Ur 17Sc42'59" 00N02 - 0°02' 250°45' 22S14 357°35' -64°12'  91°10' 100% F
Ne 06Sg25'13" 01N13 - 0°01' 271°01' 22S14 318°57' -59°04' 111°29'  56%  
Pl 05Li32'08" 17N23 - 0°01' 214°00' 04N49  41°24' -28°39'  39°34'  26%  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Class 1 Aspects          Class 2 Aspects         Class 3 Aspects     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mo co Ur 00°18' 100%     Su op Ma 06°43'  53%     Su co Ve 08°14'  30%  
Me tr Ne 00°16' 100%     Su oc Ju 01°48'  62%     Ma sx Ju 06°29'  23%  
Me op Pl 00°38' 100%     Ve tr Ju 04°58'  54%     
Ve op Ma 01°31'  97%     Ve op Sa 05°24'  69%                           
Ju sx Sa 00°25' 100%     Ve oc Ne 01°34'  71%                           
Ne sx Pl 00°53'  98%     Ma co Sa 06°55'  50%                           
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:55 am

Thanks Jim ,
i think despite of the fact that there is no change in aspects in my case it was important
to check if some planets change houses and it is clear now Jupiter is not in the 4th house but in the 5th
and Saturn instead of in the 3rd is placed in the 2nd house and i think both of those displacements are
very important .

Thank you all guys
and have a nice day !

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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:07 am

Daniel148 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:55 am
i think despite of the fact that there is no change in aspects in my case it was important
to check if some planets change houses and it is clear now Jupiter is not in the 4th house but in the 5th and Saturn instead of in the 3rd is placed in the 2nd house and i think both of those displacements are very important.
In fairness, those changes are the result of the Campanus house system, not the mundane vs. ecliptical question itself. Looking at your chart above, both the PV longitudes AND ecliptical longitudes but your Jupiter in 5H and your Saturn in 2H.

If you think these are better placements, step 1 is to just start using Campanus.

BTW, a general rule of thumb: Campanus tends to push things more toward the horizon than the meridian (like your two examples), while Placidus, Regiomontanus, and (to a lesser extent) Koch tend to push them more toward the meridian. Placidus chart collections tend to have piles of planets in houses 3 & 4, 9 & 10. Campanus chart collections tend to pile planets up in houses 12 & 1, 6 & 7.
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Re: Pluto true mundane position

Post by Daniel148 » Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:54 am

Following what you have said Jim i did some rectification for my birth chart not long time ago and because my time of birth
was before than very exact i used mainly solar arc directions and i could figure out easly
which house system worked best for my chart and it was Placidus .
I guess there is no shift in Saturn and Jupiter and they should stay in 3rd and 5th houses
i did not figure out that the shift happened because of the Campanus house system .
Thank you for this remark ,
Daniel .

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