Revisiting natal mundane aspects

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Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:23 am

Over recent months, I've been looking more pointedly, when the chance afforded itself, at mundane (prime vertical) aspects in a natal chart. Previously, I've left several things filed in the "unknown, undecided" part of my brain. I've now resolved some of those unknowns to my own satisfaction.

In Sidereal Mundane Astrology, Chapter 3 (on the mundoscope), I summarized my previous thoughts thus:
...Ecliptical aspects in the standard horoscope are unquestionably valid and are a confirmable foundation of most approaches to astrology. Still, this leaves a separate question of whether mundoscope aspects (rightly called mundane aspects) are also valid. If they are, it complicates astrology further, though that is insufficient cause to neglect them if they appear to be of value.

In most scenarios, it seems that mundane aspects are not valid to the same level as ecliptical aspects. If I had to pick one or the other, I would pick ecliptical aspects. However, in certain scenarios, mundane aspects are enormously important.

...Occasionally one sees an aspect [mundane] that makes one’s heart skip a beat but, overall, introducing an additional set of aspects is not supportable when looking at real lives.

One scenario where it is difficult for me to dismiss mundane aspects, though, is in relocation astrology. In comparing the mundoscope of one’s natal chart to the mundoscope of its relocation to a new geographic region, some mundoscope aspects disappear and others appear. If these aspects are close conjunctions, oppositions, or squares, it does appear quite often that the change in aspects matches a change in circumstances. (These are mundane aspects, after all – a framework relative to our situation in the world.) This suggests that the aspects are, indeed, valid, though perhaps more subtly than ecliptical aspects, so that they usually do not shine as clearly in the character until something (like a cross-country move) forces a contrast.

Mundane aspects, existing only for one (large or small) region of Earth, are inherently aspects of localization. They distinguish some geographic regions from others... I am unsurprised, therefore, that mundane aspects seem exceptionally important in mundane astrology charts like Sidereal solar and lunar ingress charts. Sometimes, though, we find striking examples of their operation in a natal chart...

I then gave three examples of them seeming important, striking enough to make good examples and keep the mind open and thinking processes going, concluding:
Examples such as these make it hard to dismiss entirely the value of mundane aspects in natal astrology, other than as a tactic of simplification or setting priorities.
So I kept the question open and on the back-burner until I had more opportunity - and found the angle - to dig more deeply into it.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:23 am

To summarize what had been learned and seemingly confirmed previously:
  1. Mundane aspects were overwhelmingly confirmed in mundane charts - Sidereal solar and lunar ingresses - and seem indistinguishable from ecliptical aspects. - Notice, though, that this meant mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares where at least one of the planets (and usually two) was angular.
  2. Mundane aspects seem just as strongly confirmed in Sidereal solar and lunar returns - regardless of whether they are transit-to-transit, transit-to-natal, or (often newly "discovered") natal-to-natal aspects. In all cases, the confirmed aspects were conjunctions, oppositions, or squares where both planets are foreground or angular. [For unclear reasons, there is a difference between ingresses and solunars in this regard: In the ingresses, a non-foreground planet's aspect to a foreground planet is operative as a conditioning factor provided it doesn't contradict the primary message of the ingress. However, in solunar returns, the aspect seems completely worthless unless both planets are foreground or angular (the exception being partile aspects).]
  3. In a natal chart, close hard mundane aspects between natal planets have always been evident provided they were closely conjunct angles, i.e., in the immediate foreground.
  4. In relocation, the effect is much more evident: Mundane aspects acquired or lost by relocating the birth chart seem quite descriptive of the differing conditions in the two locations. Some examples have been quite vivid. A reasonable conclusion from this would be that the mundane aspect must have been somewhat effective all along, otherwise the contrast wouldn't be so evident; but it still allowed that the base effect might be subtle.
As part of sustaining a state of skeptical unknowing or inquiry while investigating this: Most of the above prior determinations were only known to be operative when in the foreground. This allows that there could have been another theory of why these aspects seem so effective even if we determined that mundane aspects themselves were not valid in these conditions. (This is somewhat subtle, so please be patient and read closely.) It could have been only a matter of co-angularity. Consider as an example: Our friend Arena has no ecliptical Jupiter-Saturn aspect at birth. However, she was born with Saturn 1°20' past Ascendant and Jupiter 2°16' past Descendant. The simplest way to describe this would be a partile (0°37') Jupiter-Saturn mundane aspect, and a Jupiter-Saturn aspect accurately describes her character and history. However... it doesn't require that the aspect itself exists. We would get much the same by her simply being someone with Saturn closely angular and Jupiter comparably closely angular - the co-existence of these two energies in comparable strength. I would be hard-pressed to distinguish that interpretation from a Jupiter-Saturn aspect interpretation (and probably would use what I know of the aspect to interpret the co-angularity).

In other words, as long as we are dealing with close aspects in the foreground, alternate theories are available that don't require aspects per se and that explain why strong effects are present that look like the aspect. (If we limit ourselves to close aspects, then the two planets' distance from the angles is always going to be similar - they will be comparably strong.)

On the other hand, co-angularity doesn't explain anything valid we might see in Arena's natal mundane Moon-Sun opposition. She doesn't have a natal Moon-Sun aspect (her Cancer Sun not having the same dynamic feel as a Moon-Sun aspect); she has a partile (0°45') mundane Moon-Sun opposition; and the luminaries are outside the foreground. If we were to judge that the usual characteristics of a natal Moon-Sun opposition appear in her, then alternate theories no longer suffice: We're left with the explanation that there is an actual aspect between them.

This summarizes where I found myself on the issue before revisiting it on and off in recent months.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:23 am

In recent months, I've encountered several examples that have led me to new conclusions on the question of mundane aspects in a natal chart.

As summarized above, previously I had concluded that close hard foreground mundane aspects were important as a way of interpreting foreground planets; that a distinction could be easily seen in relocation astrology as aspects are "lost" and "acquired" from a geographic move; that natal ecliptical aspects are rock-solid confirmed, a reliable foundation of most approaches to astrology; and that occasionally there was an interesting example of some other mundane aspect seeming operative... just enough "maybe" to keep me looking.

My new conclusions are as follows:
  1. All close (Class 1) mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a birth chart are valid, strong aspects, probably comparable to comparably close ecliptical conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. (Since work with ingresses shows ecliptical and mundane aspects equally effective and indistinguishable, we'll probably conclude the same is true in a nativity.)
  2. Wider (Class 2) mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a nativity are probably also important at about the same level as Class 2 ecliptical aspects; however, these wider orbs make characteristics less evident (i.e., case-by-case confirmation is more difficult).
  3. Some examples suggest that mundane semi-squares and sesqui-squares (within 1-2°) are also effective in a nativity. (More looking is needed, but I found several examples where they seem evident and no examples where they were outright contradictions.)
  4. Mundane sextiles and trines are worthless. They are white noise across the examples, occasionally seeming to fit, occasionally contradictory, etc.
  5. At least the close mundane conjunctions, oppositions, and squares in a nativity need to be considered for a complete picture of the nativity. Possibly, wider mundane hard aspects need to be considered as well.
  6. As already known - and now for additional reasons - a mundoscope must always accompany a horoscope, side-by-side.
I do think, though, that there is an interpretive difference between ecliptical and mundane phenomena. I will summarize these in the next post.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 10:08 am

Mundane means "of or pertaining to the world" (Latin mundus). This word is used in two distinct ways in astrology.
  • It is used in the term mundane astrology as "astrology for the world," i.e., geopolitical or mass-mind / collective astrology.
  • It is used in such terms as mundane phenomena to mean astrological characteristics that are not celestial (phenomena in the sky, true for all places on Earth) but are local to specific, limited places on Earth. (These are primarily considerations of angularity and houses.)
Another subtle meaning is inherent in these two uses: Mundane factors in a chart seem to best show things that happen - as objective events - out in the world rather than only within a person's psyche. (This is evident in the way that angles tend to always be implicated in events.) While no clear, distinct boundary exists between psychological expressions and event expressions of astrological factors, we already rely most on mundane measurements (angles) to identify events.

Similarly, I have come to think that mundane placements and aspects in a nativity lean more heavily to showing life events - actions, outpourings, things that "happen to us" - than ecliptical aspects. It's not that ecliptical aspects don't show life events, or that mundane aspects don't imply psychological conditions behind events, but that the mundoscope - even of a nativity - is more of an event chart. (I think we will find that ecliptical aspects in a nativity most show events when they are also mundane aspects.)

This also gives a satisfying explanation to the question of why only hard mundane aspects seem effective: They, too, are phenomena of direct action, dynamic energy flow, and more concrete, objective phenomena.

Finally, to get the full impact of the meaning of "mundane," notice that this is exactly the way most astrologers who use houses understand houses. Siderealists are most committed to the importance of angles and, at most, are collectively ambivalent about houses; but, without requiring that we accept houses as valid phenomena, please note that they are most commonly used to show life areas of concrete expression - such as determining in what part of life a result will emerge. That is, houses are primarily used to express mundane (out in the world) phenomena. This congeals a broad instinct that mundane (location-specific) mathematical factors in a horoscope (such as angles and houses) have primarily a mundane ("out in the world" or objective) expression in one's life.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:03 am

A couple of examples might make this clearer.

On a mundane astrology Facebook page, an astrologer recently asked for opinions on how Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu had survived in politics so long - seeming to circumvent all sorts of political troubles. Netanyahu was born October 21, 1949, in Tel Aviv, Israel with a variety of rectifications either side of a stated 10:30 AM time. (I use 10:30 here, but half an hour either way makes little difference.) The most common theory was that Venus rising made him popular. I didn't think popularity was sufficient, but noticed (1) many factors in the chart that seemed to describe a character who gets away with more than other people, (2) the rising Venus closely square Saturn, showing a willingness to sell his soul for a goal and not bicker about the price, and (3) a number of cagey, strategic markers.

I initially thought these would be sufficient but not entirely satisfying. The chart didn't show any mark of real advantage or unusual luck. Then I checked the mundoscope and - behold! - a close (1°12') Sun-Jupiter mundane square. That felt satisfying!


Another great example is a chart we're all going to be getting used to seeing, that of JOE BIDEN, who was born November 20, 1942, 8:30 AM EWT, in Scranton, PA. His horoscope describes his character quite well, but it only hints at the main outward phenomena of his life - what politically is called one's story. Here, though, is his mundoscope.

Image

The main features of Biden's story center around the tragic losses he has suffered in his life, particularly the car crash that killed his wife and daughter (and injured his two sons) and the later death of one of his sons (and serious ordeals with the other) - this shown against his loving devotion as a father (daily commute from DC to home etc.). He was born in poor working class conditions and, during his time in the Senate, was well known as the poorest Senator. (Etc. etc. rounded out with a few more details.)

What do we see in the mundoscope?

First, we see (useful in understanding the horoscope) his foreground planets: Uranus 0°30' from Descendant, Saturn 4°53' before Dsc, and Venus 4°43' and Sun 5°28' past Asc. These describe his character well. But look at the aspects plus midpoints to the angles. (From work with ingresses we've solidly confirmed that midpoints to angles should be measured in the same framework as angularity which, for horizon and meridian, means in PV longitude.) His Venus/Saturn midpoint is 0°05' from the horizon, and his Sun/Saturn 0°17' away. These are also on his Uranus. To make it easier to see, here are the mundoscope positions:

29°30' Uranus
29°43' Su/Sa
0°00' Horizon
0°05' Ve/Sa

This is quite descriptive of the defining events of his life - the sorrowful loss of loved ones (in a sudden, surprising event), the devoted father, the hardworking, sacrificing rise from his birth conditions to a life of service. It's his "story."

These contacts don't exist in the ecliptic chart, though he does have a Venus-Uranus opposition across the horizon. (But the meaning isn't really the same.)

There is another important mundane aspect, one that doesn't exist at all in his ecliptical horoscope: Moon squares Pluto (0°50'). This, too, is typical of acute loss, separation, existential confrontation, etc. - In fact, take his natal mundoscope and read it as if it were a return chart: The "eventishness" becomes more evident, it is very much a guide to the plot of his life-story.

These aspects, which are so descriptive of life events, are not as descriptive of his character. For example, while Joe has some of the Moon-Pluto character traits, some of the traits normally obvious are quite unlike him - like the tendency to pack up and take off rather than adapt to conditions. (Quite the obvious.) He's been willing to challenge authority but, then, he also has Uranus half a degree from an angle. And so forth. I'm sure Moon-Pluto root psychological traits are in him, but they aren't the primary expression: He has been steady and present. Instead, the primary Moon-Pluto expression in his life has been in emotional crisis or shock, separation, confrontation of death. Events!

One final thing: Notice that if one includes house meanings, these aspects become even more dramatically expressive: The Moon-Pluto square is between the houses of Children and Death. We probably don't need these details - Pluto is "death" enough on its own, as is Moon "children" - but the meaning becomes more obvious. Something to (cautiously) consider...
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:35 am

Anyway... those are my current thoughts on the subject, and things that are drawing my attention.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:45 am

Thanks for your insights Jim.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:29 am

Jim, after reading several times, IMO, I think this thread is some of your most important astrological thoughts you have written about in a long time. 8-)

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:48 am

Thanks, Steve. I thought it was something that needed to be updated here. People had raised these questions in the past, and I gave the best answer I had at the time and put it on a "middle burner" to watch. The Biden chart really caught my attention, and helped congeal some others I'd seen recently.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:55 am

Rereading it just now, I realized something: My current SLR has "discovered" mundane aspects of natal planets. That is, in the framework of my current SLR, my natal Mercury-Saturn squares my natal Jupiter-Uranus in the foreground: I call them "discovered" because the squares don't exist ecliptically or in my natal or local mundoscope, but do exist in the framework of my SLR.

Natal planet mundoscope positions in the SLR framework:

22°48' in 6th: r Mercury
23°47' in 3rd: r Uranus
24°11' in 3rd: r Jupiter
25°48' in 6th: r Saturn

The Mercury-Uranus square is partile. The whole set is interesting. I mention this because it was under this SLR that I pulled the above together and wrote it up. (I hadn't thought anything about the SLR at the time.)
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:47 am

Jim wrote:
The Biden chart really caught my attention, and helped congeal some others I'd seen recently.
I know exactly where you are coming from Jim. The Biden example is a par-excellent mundo example. I have a couple of Natal examples showing the importance you stress of never overlooking the mundo Natal Chart, because at times the mundo Natal Chart vs. the standard Ecliptic Natal Chart will show most of the symbolism for the main themes of events happening in a life. Or, in other words, at times the mundo natal will show the main symbolic natal signatures where the standard eclipto chart will not. I will post an example later from a close friend of 53 years.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:33 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:47 am
...at times the mundo Natal Chart vs. the standard Ecliptic Natal Chart will show most of the symbolism for the main themes of events happening in a life.
That's a strong, concise statement of what I was getting at! I think it might well be so. I find myself eager anew to look at each new chart that comes along as if it were a return chart.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:27 am

So the Sun-Uranus angle aspect is vaild in my own chart then correct? If so how would I interpret this (the sun has no real other aspects).

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:00 am

Soft Alpaca wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:27 am
So the Sun-Uranus angle aspect is vaild in my own chart then correct? If so how would I interpret this (the sun has no real other aspects).
Sun and Uranus in your chart don't have the same sort of aspect being discussed above (prime vertical aspects). They have another mathematical relationship (that I've called PVP) formed by Sun being exactly on the horizon circle and Uranus being exactly on the prime vertical circle. These aspects have demonstrated themselves in mundane astrology and I suspect they are equally important in natal astrology (but we almost never see one: you're unique in that).

Speaking of unique: That's the main feature of a Sun-Uranus aspect. Sun-Uranus combinations usuall express like this:
Go their own way, unapologetically following their own paths, persuaded that they are a “special case.” Resourceful, stimulating, but easily bored (in need of frequent stimulation). Love of freedom: bow to no authority but themselves. Progressive, future-oriented, uninhibited by convention. Adept at creative problem solving. Self-perspective usually founded in objectivity.
I think you and most people who have gotten to know you here would say that this fits you pretty well.

I don't want to digress into PVP aspects in this thread - it's not about them, and I want it to remain an enduring post on its original topic - but, to close the loop, here is the data about your Sun-Uranus PVP aspect: Ideally, an aspect between one planet on near horizon and another near the prime vertical should be measured along the circle of the meridian. I haven't figured out the math for doing that, but I do have a way that approximates it. For a 7:32 AM birth time, your Sun is 0°41' before Ascendant in altitude, the 'vertical' coordinate with respect to the horizon. Your Uranus is 0°07' after Antivertex in prime vertical amplitude, the 'vertical' coordinate with respect to the prime vertical. Adding these two numbers gives an orb for a Sun-Uranus square of 0°48', which is damn close. For planets so close to the horizon and PV, this is going to be almost exactly the orb we'd get if we could measure this directly along the circle of the meridian.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:40 am

I misunderstood that this was a different kind of calculation. To put the topic back on point do I have any of the natal mundane aspects that are important? I don't have the technology to pull up my Mundo-scope not the experience to run it smoothly right off the bat I am certain.

Your specific combination is fairly fitting for yourself. At least I think it speaks for your higher intellect in extreme volumes.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:32 pm

Soft Alpaca wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:40 am
...do I have any of the natal mundane aspects that are important? I don't have the technology to pull up my Mundo-scope not the experience to run it smoothly right off the bat I am certain.
Them most important mundane aspect you have is one we have mentioned from the beginning: Sun exactly on Asc squares Jupiter near IC. It's slightly wider (about 4°) but most angular, and mirrors your Sagittarius-Leo luminaries.

Using smaller orbs, you have Moon square Venus 0°52' and Saturn square Neptune 0°58'. These btw are for birthplace: The energies maty have shifted if you have moved.

FYI here's a copy of your mundoscope:

Image
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:58 pm

I am back near my birthplace again for the time being. Thanks for the chart Jim. I'm not sure if or how either of those manifest but I'll mull it over. It's definitely an interesting concept (I live in newville in cumberland county pa btw).

The only thing I don't quite get is why I relate to Mars sometimes more I think than some of the other bodies thought I might see something here.

None the less id definitely like to see more examples of this when we asses new natal charts.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:28 am

Jim, FWIW, my Natal eclipto Saturn-Pluto conjunction of almost 4 degree orb when converted to a mundoscope, calculates a partile mundo conjunction of Saturn-Pluto. You teach partile aspects "reign supreme," and after living 73 years of life, I can look back and attest this mundo partile cnj of Saturn-Pluto indeed "reigned supreme" in my life before I retired. It manifested in my life as feeling a 'heavy burden' resistance on many life levels, just as we have seen the partile foreground Saturn-Pluto conjunction in the DC 2020 Capsolar, both eclipto & mundo, manifested as a "heavy burden" "reigning supreme" for the Country with the Covid Pandemic. I forgot who coined Saturn-Pluto aspects as the "Atlas Shrugged" aspect, but IMHO it is very true. I am not sure, but I think it was the astrologer Charles Jayne who did a-lot of research with mundane aspects said mundane “line-ups” of a two planet conjunction or opposition as more potent than the same ecliptic aspects.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:49 am

Yes, that aspect does indeed become partile. (Your Venus-Uranus gets much closer, also.) Though it isn't in my standard Saturn-Pluto interpretation, I do think your experiences with your father are shown by Pluto's action on your Saturn.

My current (generic) interpretation of Saturn-Pluto is:
“Runs their own show,” resists outside control. Even as an employee, wants autonomy. Lone wolf: solitary path comes naturally; partnership requires choice and effort. Rejects arbitrary expectations. Survivors: Great strength, self-reliance, and persistence in the face of hardship (stubborn, entrenched; pays the necessary price). Conscientious. Tough as nails but can become hard, cut-off, alienated, obsessive. By taking everything on themselves, can feel they bear the world's weight.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:30 am

Jim wrote:
I do think your experiences with your father are shown by Pluto's action on your Saturn.
Indeed! :(
Jim wrote:
My current (generic) interpretation of Saturn-Pluto is:
By taking everything on themselves, can feel they bear the world's weight.
Bingo! Everything related to most of my career was put on my shoulders to “bear.” Huge responsibilities! This “weight” did not go away until after I retired.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:32 am

Jim wrote:
Another subtle meaning is inherent in these two uses: Mundane factors in a chart seem to best show things that happen - as objective events - out in the world rather than only within a person's psyche. Similarly, I have come to think that mundane placements and aspects in a nativity lean more heavily to showing life events - actions, outpourings, things that "happen to us" - than ecliptical aspects. It's not that ecliptical aspects don't show life events, or that mundane aspects don't imply psychological conditions behind events, but that the mundoscope - even of a nativity - is more of an event chart. (I think we will find that ecliptical aspects in a nativity most show events when they are also mundane aspects.) Finally, to get the full impact of the meaning of "mundane," notice that this is exactly the way most astrologers who use houses understand houses. Siderealists are most committed to the importance of angles and, at most, are collectively ambivalent about houses; but, without requiring that we accept houses as valid phenomena, please note that they are most commonly used to show life areas of concrete expression - such as determining in what part of life a result will emerge. That is, houses are primarily used to express mundane (out in the world) phenomena. This congeals a broad instinct that mundane (location-specific) mathematical factors in a horoscope (such as angles and houses) have primarily a mundane ("out in the world" or objective) expression in one's life.
As I have written earlier, I think this thread by Jim is very important for the astrologer to understand. I want to elaborate further with my natal mundane partile conjunction of Saturn & Pluto in my natal 9th House. One of the main house meanings of the 9th House is “Religion & the Church.” Before I opened my first book on astrology, I visited a high grade Psychic in Chicago. She told me I would run into a severe case of “Religious Bigotry” which would cause me the most emotional pain and depression ever in my entire life. Her Husband was an astrologer and he circled my entire Natal Scope asking his wife the high grade psychic what would happen in my life with certain planetary aspects in my natal houses. I am now 73 years of age and I can now look back on my life and the Chicago Psychic nailed what would happen in my life with Saturn-Pluto in my 9th House. Now, with almost 40 years of astrological studies behind me relative to my life experiences, I can clearly see where this thread by Jim is of vast importance for the serious minded astrologer.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:43 am

Here is how my natal partile mundane conjunction of Saturn-Pluto in the 9th House manifested in my life:
I was born into a very low income family next to a Drive-Inn Theater. As a young growing kid I fell into a deep love for the Movie Pictures Industry. The President of the Company who owned the Drive-Inn acted as a second father to me and recognized my love for the Theater Business. He told the Manager of the Theater to teach me everything about the Theater Business. By the time I graduated High School, I knew everything for managing and operating a Theater but was too young to take over management. During the summers at College I was taught how to book and contract movies for all the Theaters of the Company. When I left college I was offered and naturally accepted an executive position with the Company. Seven years after working with the Company, the President of the Company on the rebound married his second wife who was a fundamentalist Bible toting, avid Church goer who converted the President into his first Church going experiences. Short story of this long saga, the Stockholders of the Company secretly met with me wanting to fire the President and elect me as President---I refused out of loyalty to the President who I owed everything as a successful businessman in the Theater Business. His second wife turned out to be the religious bigot who converted the President into a religious fanatic. When I realized as a revelation the Chicago Psychic had foreseen my emotional pain and depression pertaining to the insane religious activity happening within the Company I dearly loved, I resigned from the Company 4 years before the Stockholder’s fired the President of the Company, and was rehired by the stockholders as Managing Director of the Company, which eventually led me to owning my own Theater which I sold years later and retired. As a minority stockholder (1%) I had to sit in stockholders meetings with the fired President as a majority owner (33%) with threatening lawsuits from a divided Company. My dream job with a Company I helped build turned into a living nightmare. The beginning of my nightmare started with the religious bigot woman the President married and she was working through the disguise of Religion to take over the Company.

Mundane natal partile Saturn-Pluto conjunction in my 9th House symbolizing the worst “emotional pain & depression” in my entire life. But, this major life crises eventually led me to the biggest business opportunity in my entire life with me buying for a song an old closed down Company Theater. BTW, relative to my life, I think mundane planetary conjunctions in a natal chart are the most important aspects but I have no defining words to explain this.

Confucius may be right: “Where there are crises—are opportunities”.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:02 am

Reading what you said Steve, I went back to look into the two Jim pointed out in my own chart, and Saturn/Neptune: Bridges the practical & material with the idealistic & immaterial. (Most bridge it well.) Can render a vision concrete and believable, make something solid from an idea (creativity realized, plans executed; visual and musical artists, counselors, problem solvers). Frequently indifferent to material security. Devotion, loyalty (possible intrigue, deception, suspicion, betrayal). Many withdraw, enter seclusion, asylum, exile. Chronic (disabling?) physical or psychological afflictions (can include dark, troubled states, depression, disappointment, distrust, struggling with demons).


This is 100% correct, probably only matched by my Pluto/Moon, Sun/Uranus, and Mars/Venus. A constant battle between expressing our demons and letting them express us. I frequently battle expressing my dark and secluded thoughts into material art (poems, music art, people and their feelings/problems. Most of my life has been surrounded by betrayal and abandonment (mother,father, stepfather, friends etc.). I'm completely distrusting of everything and I hate "stuff". I also think this accents some of my capricorn energy for sure, the one thing about material security however, I've hardly ever had any (sometimes but rarely this goes as far as having no where to stay, most frequently it means I'm poor and not attached to many physical things).

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:33 am

I understand SA. I really feel like Jim is making major breakthroughs with this thread. It helps when we can take our own lives and relate to Jim’s thoughts with his certain teachings. It’s somewhat difficult to juggle/understand the two different kinds of ecliptical & mundane aspects, but it helps to know the mundane aspects are more likely to manifest externally as events. It could make a difference for a young person like you, or anyone in helping get out sooner of malefic jams when we see them developing.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:39 pm

Another example: Sigmund Freud's AA-rated chart has a close Moon-Neptune mundane square with Moon exactly on the 8th cusp, Neptune in the 5th: How's that for sexual mania as a foundation of psychodynamics <vbg>? (Among other ways of saying it.) - The aspect is 5-6° wide ecliptically, not all that strong a feature.

Something similar is present in Venus mundanely conjunct Pluto (0°23') in the 6th, bring first (just from the aspect) the penetration of erotic dynamics and, by house, connected either to his work or the root idea of medicine.

Sun conjunct Uranus in the 7th exists ecliptically but is a little closer mundanely.

Simply as aspects (with no other considerations), Moon-Neptune, Sun-Uranus, and Venus-Pluto are pretty interesting for summarizing his mind and work. Of these, ecliptically one is wide, one exists anyway, and one doesn't exist (unless you take a 9° orb).
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:33 pm

8-) ,Another great example for tight mundo aspects unveiling astrological truths with a person's natal.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:42 pm

This may be a useful example: When I moved from birthplace to LA over 45 years ago, the different mundane aspects (different orbs) significantly shifted the list of my closest aspects. I'll list my Class 1 natal aspects, from closest to widest, first for birthplace and then for residence. They are exactly the same aspects but paint a picture of a two different people.

BIRTHPLACE
Mars-Neptune sq. 0°07' mundo
Venus-Pluto sq. 0°13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 0°17'
Neptune-Pluto sx. 0°46'
Venus-Uranus tr. 1°27'
Moon-Mars sx. 1°31'
Venus-Jupiter tr. 1°44'
Uranus-Neptune sq. 2°00'
Jupiter-Neptune sq. 2°16'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 2°24'
Venus-Mars sx. 2°57'

RESIDENCE
Uranus-Neptune sq. 0°10' mundo
Venus-Pluto sq. 0°13'
Jupiter-Uranus conj. 0°17'
Jupiter-Neptune sq. 0°33' mundo
Neptune-Pluto sx. 0°46'
Venus-Uranus tr. 1°27'
Moon-Mars sx. 1°31'
Mercury-Saturn conj. 1°36' mundo
Venus-Jupiter tr. 1°44'
Mars-Neptune sq. 2°25'
Venus-Mars sx. 2°57'
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:36 pm

I have Eris,-Jupiter in Mundo-scope (Eris becoming angular naturally) it says more than just a lot about myself- it explains why I don't understand pure Jupiter energy. Eris being disruptive acts as one of Jupiters natural foils (There is some level of organization applied in Jupiters ambition needs; Eris removes this; as it actually is playing out in real life I'd take it as the
Ability to succeed dispite disruptions. Natural gathering of value dispite unknown odds.Gains footing in goals where others cannot tread. An inborn ability to achieve "dispite".

Thinking about this I am poor, I came from a family of substance abuse, but unlike Saturn I managed to use Jupiter to find other ways of life, and Eris helped me beat the ODDs. I'm an Eagle Scout who graduated the top Culinary school potentially in the world. My sick (addititive type) mom had me at 17, didn't even graduate and my dad left because he was a confused kid. Now as my 6th months are approaching at my place of work, I get a Job offer through extended family of a guest I had served (It's kind of nice Taverna 5450 Farfield PA. at the bottom of mt liberty I think). The interview is on Monday he told me to pick a day and come and and we can talk about what Im looking to do. This is coming up on my 6th month mark just as I'm getting fed up with large corp. waiter jobs instability. (I'm literally just stumbling into these Jobs dispite being in a Pandemic).
Last edited by Soft Alpaca on Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Feb 12, 2021 9:34 pm

I think this is all quite true.
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:50 pm

I got the Job! Starting (most likely) 4 days a week in the kitchen at 15$ an hour and 1-2 days FOH (likely 200-400 nights) on top of the one day a week I'm keeping at olive garden serving (for cash flow for gas/medicine).

It's all from scratch (except the spring rolls) and everyone is nice so far so I'm excited I start Monday and got the job somewhere around 12:30-1 pm on this past Monday.

I was wondering if I could get my Mundo-scope with Eris in it Jim? (Sorry if this is a lot to ask!)

If I'm noticing it correctly as well, I think my Mundo Eris-Jupiter aspect being angular is key (as I don't think I feel the Moon-Venus as strongly for example).

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Soft Alpaca » Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:03 am

I finally understand what a Mundo-scope is now that I've read an article explaining how trines in the Mundo-scope were viewed as squares. I found a 9 year old blog by one Anthony Louis (When is a trine not a trine?) He did a great job explaining short and long ascension in Lehman terms.

Oddly enough I've been described as motherly, but I don't think this Moon-Venus stems past that (I have a Venus Sun aspect or midpoint come up too at some point or another that's felt very softly, Uranus just weighs a lot). I'm also curious about how to view that weird Sun Uranus aspect..

As for the Saturn-Neptune aspect I think it's definitely there and square but it's still just nuanced. Like a base speaker turned down to one or two volume.

So as for the Mundo-scope I see angular aspects definitely play a role, Eris is a core cornerstone of my personality. (I'd say Eris has probably been angular no matter everywhere I've been, though I'm not sure how if bleeds into my physical or aesthic manifestation {I dress very comfortably, chulu hat, harem pants, baja hoodie often dark colors, if not then black and warm reds olives etc}).

Side note where would the color red (perhaps crimson or brick red?) come out in my chart (this is the color people link me too the most frequently).

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:40 am

That article is here:
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... t-a-trine/

It's trying to explain why trines are not "always good" talking about signs of long ascension vs short ascension.
What Dorotheus was getting at are now called aspects “in mundo,” meaning that they are measured in terms of how long planets take to rise rather than where they are on the zodiac circle. It would not be uncommon for a trine between two planets on the ecliptic (path of the Sun) to become a square when measured in terms of the difference in how long the two planets take to rise based on their sign positions (whether they are in signs of short or long ascension).
and goes on to use an analogue Placidius mundoscope.

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Tue May 04, 2021 5:35 am

Below are eclipto & mundo natal chart links to a close friend I have known for over 53 years. There is no doubt in my mind his two most dominating natal aspects are seen/understood with his mundo natal chart, Mercury partile 180 Jupiter & Moon partile 90 Mars. These two mundo partile aspects pours out to me as if they are angular, but obviously they are not angular, proving to me partile mundo 0, 90, 180 natal aspects “reign supreme.”
Eclipto:
https://ibb.co/g47ksFD
Mundo:
https://ibb.co/YQhPkPF

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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue May 04, 2021 6:25 am

Very interesting.

I also wonder... are there 1st-to-7th house themes in the Mercury-Jupiter and/or 3rd-to-6th house themes in the Moon-Mars?

Also wondering: How do Mercury-Jupiter and, especially, Moon-Mars show that is clearly not just the expression of an Aries Sun (which could have some of the same character)?
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Re: Revisiting natal mundane aspects

Post by SteveS » Tue May 04, 2021 8:31 am

Jim asked:
I also wonder... are there 1st-to-7th house themes in the Mercury-Jupiter and/or 3rd-to-6th house themes in the Moon-Mars?
Most definitely 1st to 7th house themes for Mercury-Jupiter: Everyone he meets or knows with communications---he leaves em and himself laughing in happy moods. 3rd-to-6th house themes for Moon-Mars for 6th house job service he has always said-- he keeps his nose to the grindstone with his habitual work habits---very hard worker expending lots of physical energy as a commercial contract painter. Moon-Mars also expresses itself secondarily as knee jerk emotional anger over certain trivial things. For sure with the Aries Sun as core traits.

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