Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:58 am

Jim wrote:
BTW, I finally figured out that there is a really good reason fixed stars contacts would occur only by paran: They are the ONLY factor astrologers use that is outside of our solar system. There is no reason at all to think they have any responsiveness to the ecliptic, which is entirely a measuring base INSIDE our solar system.
They MIGHT also be relevant in galactic longitude but, of the frameworks we already use easily, the mundane frameworks - PV longitude, parans, and perhaps altitude - are the only ones that are relevant.
Jim, when you say “galactic longitude” are you referring to the GC? Jim, we don’t really understand a lot of crystal clear symbolism with fixed starts do we, only maybe a handful, correct?

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:54 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:58 am
Jim, when you say “galactic longitude” are you referring to the GC?
No. I mean that instead of measuring around the ecliptic, measure around the galactic plane, the plan that slices through the middle of the Milky Way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_plane

Janus will show you charts in galactic coordinates if you pick Wheels > Alternate Coordinate Systems and select Galactic Longitude in the upper right dropdown. Don't worry about signs when looking at this because this plane has its own starting point for astronomers and would have to be adjusted to the boundaries of the Sidereal zodiac if we were to give any significant use/exploration to this. For now, the valuable thing (if anything is valuable) is to see what it does to aspects and how they are different from the same positions measured along the ecliptic.

Janus does seem to be using (trying to use) the Galactic Center as a convenient 0-point in this display. At least, when I add GC to a galactic longitude chart, it comes out as 359°57', so I think they're trying to make it 0°/360°. - Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you can include stars in a galactic longitude chart, which limits its usability.

On how the Sidereal zodiac fits, if I run the 2024 Capsolar in Janus and then convert to galactic, Sun is at 19°16'. However, if there is a single marker of the SZ, it isn't necessarily on the ecliptic, so we can't tell that Sun's position at 0° Capricorn is the universal location in all alternate planes. Nonetheless, it's an approximation.

The real point of the section you quoted, though - aside from the theorizing that galactic coordinates may one day add something to the fixed star story - is to say that OF COURSE (duh!) ecliptical contact with fixed stars is worthless (they aren't responsive to the ecliptic) - which leaves us only with judging fixed star contacts by parans.
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:59 am

Jim wrote:
However, if there is a single marker of the SZ, it isn't necessarily on the ecliptic, so we can't tell that Sun's position at 0° Capricorn is the universal location in all alternate planes. Nonetheless, it's an approximation.
Do you believe if Fagan & Bradley were alive today they would still think the “single marker of the SZ” has to be 0 Cap with the work you have contributed in your SMA book along with their work? What about you Jim, what do you think?

Jim wrote:
The real point of the section you quoted, though - aside from the theorizing that galactic coordinates may one day add something to the fixed star story - is to say that OF COURSE (duh!) ecliptical contact with fixed stars is worthless (they aren't responsive to the ecliptic) - which leaves us only with judging fixed star contacts by parans.
Jim, I think I have a good grasp of the true symbolic meanings for the Stars Regulus and Sirius with planet contacts by parans. Not sure about other stars. What is your take with other Stars and their symbolic meanings, particularly with Aldebaran?

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Aug 27, 2023 9:00 am

SteveS wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2023 3:59 am
Do you believe if Fagan & Bradley were alive today they would still think the “single marker of the SZ” has to be 0 Cap with the work you have contributed in your SMA book along with their work? What about you Jim, what do you think?
I'm not sure what they'd think. To some extent, I don't think Fagan would care (but he could have changed his mind five times by now). The Solar Apex section that opens the Primer sounds like Firebrace mostly (especially because Fagan made so little of it in Astrological Origins).

Bradley... gosh, if there was anyone on the planet who would have been in the heart of mainstream astronomy with the mind to understand what he was reading it would have been Don. He might have found something entirely different, or found confirming reasons for the Apex. There is no telling what he could have done with three or four more decades if the cancer hadn't taken him before age 50 :( or if he had even lived another ten years until he had a computer at his disposal.

For my own thoughts, they boil down to "we don't know" and that the Apex is the most enticing but odds are against it being correct. Have you been reading the draft chapters I've been posting of CSA? The long Advanced section beginning on page 18 addresses this more fully than I have anywhere else: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7759
Jim wrote:
What is your take with other Stars and their symbolic meanings, particularly with Aldebaran?
Main take is that not enough research has been done. In the Stars section of the forum (from which you quoted this morning) I've started gathering notes. I could give you short "hits" on a particular one that might interest you. The Intermediate section of the CSA chapter on planets gives current summary: Fixed stars begin on page 22 and the larger section on possible additional supplementary "bodies" begins on page 18.
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=7645
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Mon Aug 28, 2023 2:37 am

Thanks Jim, I will study.
For others: With Jim’s delineation of the Galactic Center (GC) for my Natal Chart (2,00 Sag), for the first time in my astrological life (38 years) I now understand the WHY I became an astrologer; not so much to do astrology for other people but to discover and understand myself as a spiritual being molded by the stars and planets into an individual being. I knew my partile Sun (2,00 Virgo)-Uranus (2,00 Gem) 90 was a very important part of my being; but, when my mind sees/understands that my Sun-Uranus calculates a hidden potential paran of Sun Rising & Uranus Culminating tied-in with the GC, I understand how/why this potential paran of Sun-Uranus in my Natal is actually the CENTER of who I truly am. It’s a revelation to me and sends goose bumps up my back/neck. There is no doubt in my mind, if you want to understand more about yourself and life experiences contemplate your Natal potential parans, it’s a worthy study.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:01 am

Just a thought here: It could be with our potential parans at our main residence we have underestimated the effects of the DAILY transiting angles to our Natal potential parans. It could be these Daily transiting angles to our Natal potential parans condition our psyche/thoughts and our responses to things/people around us. Of course this could never be proven, maybe only intuited by the individual astrologer who is fully conscious of their DAILY potential parans at their main residence. This could mean where we live for a majority of TIME in our lives could change our Daily conscious/responses to life.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:11 am

SteveS wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:01 am
This could mean where we live for a majority of TIME in our lives could change our Daily conscious/responses to life.
There is merit in the idea of habituation of responses. I touched on this in my relocation chapter: Some natal factors may not be innately persistent, but may have established habituated responses that persist for years after we leave a place.

OTOH, I disagree that "where we live for a majority of time" innately matters. This is a form of the "home base" theory some astrologers have raised, with which I disagree vehemently. (The theory, in a nutshell, is that charts for your "home base" location - where you normally live - operate even when you aren't there.)

With parans, in particular, any evidence I have seen is that the response is second-by-second - where you are when these rotate past angles is the effect. This seems the only explanation to why they "pick up" immediately without having to be very long in a new place. (Of course, this is just going by the best evidence available. It's possible there is nothing to these at all - we haven't really confirmed in any objective, aggregate way that parans are any big deal. But, going with the best evidence we have when they do seem to operate, the geographic transitions seem nearly instantaneous.)
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:31 am

I understand where you are coming from Jim, but relative to my limited experiences I feel the longer we stay at a location the more our psyches may be conditioned with the transiting angles to our Natal relocated potential parans at a particular location. Many times a native has no choice but stay in the same location.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:49 am

SteveS wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:31 am
I understand where you are coming from Jim, but relative to my limited experiences I feel the longer we stay at a location the more our psyches may be conditioned with the transiting angles to our Natal relocated potential parans at a particular location. Many times a native has no choice but stay in the same location.
If you're still there - whether for a second or for decades - the local angles are valid while you are there. It doesn't take a long time (and I'm not sure being there a long time makes it any more important that being there a few seconds - it's valid anyway).

This is why people have events at a location as they pass through - not pausing there even for a second, e.g., an auto accident while going cross-country.

But if you are born at location A, move to and live in location B, and are visiting location C, transits to angles at location B (normal "home base" residence) are irrelevant until you get back to it. It's either the birth location (permanent), or where you are at the moment, or (for return charts) where they originally occurred (their 'birth' location).

The exception is that if you aren't at a location but an event affecting you and focusing your attention occurs at that location, then the chart for that location often will show it. It doesn't have to be a home base or even anywhere the person has been. (Consider Trump's recent lunar returns for Atlanta even though he was in New Jersey.)
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:55 am

This is why people have events at a location as they pass through - not pausing there even for a second, e.g., an auto accident while going cross-country.
Understood Jim, kinda like Matthew which actually messed his life up big time.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 30, 2023 11:57 am

Great example.
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by LeiLei » Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:30 pm

When you have a chance, Jim or Steve, would one of you mind telling me my potential parans (if I have any) for Oriental, NC & for Orlando, FL? There were big differences in how I felt at the two locations. Thank you in advance.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:27 am

:shock: OMG LeiLei, just glanced at your Orlando, Fl location and this jumped off the chart:

https://ibb.co/R0yFPMP

It don't get much better than angular Venus-Jupiter. Give me a little time and I will get back to you for a full list for both locations.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:30 am

LeiLei, here you go for your potential parans for Orlando, Fl & Oriental, NC---quite a striking contrast.
Orlando:
Sun Set—Sirius IC 1,03
Moon Rise—Sirius Set 1,36
Sirius Rise---Pl IC 1,08
Sun Rise—Pl Rise 0,37
***Venus Rise—Regulus MC 1,12
Venus Set—Uranus Set 0,50
Venus Set—Mars Set 1,42
Moon Set—Sat IC 1,43
Sat Set---Neptune MC 1,30

Oriental, NC:
Jupiter Rise—Sirius Rise 0,32
Sun Set—Sirius IC 1,56
Sun Rise—Pl Rise 1,40
Nep Rise—Sirius Set 1,53

Mars Set—Pluto 0,30
Venus Set—Pluto Set 0,37
Venus Set—Mars Set 0,06
Moon Set—Saturn IC 1,15


:shock: Hell & Back for the last 4 pps---LeiLei did you happened to get mugged or raped in Oriental. For sure LeiLei---if you ever have a practical option for moving to Orlando with angular Venus (MC) & Jupiter (DSC)---seriously consider. :)

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by LeiLei » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:13 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:30 am

:shock: Hell & Back for the last 4 pps---LeiLei did you happened to get mugged or raped in Oriental. For sure LeiLei---if you ever have a practical option for moving to Orlando with angular Venus (MC) & Jupiter (DSC)---seriously consider. :)
Thanks Steve. No, both of those events separately occurred in Atlanta, however.

Well this is interesting & certainly something to ponder. I'll come back with my thoughts & some of my experiences in each location. I'll start off with Orlando was the single worst place I've ever lived. I lived in Winter Park for about 6 months, just my son & me, had to return to Ga for a few months, & then we went back to live in Orlando with my mother & sister. It may have been due to living with my mother that made it bad. I thought it was going to be perfect. It was my whole reason for leaving Oriental (which I loved) & I wished almost immediately that I had never left. I also had a string of negative SSR's when I moved back to FL the second time. Anyways, very interesting stuff & I'll share more later.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:37 am

Steve, I think we should start separating star from planet paranz
Put all star study ion a separate there's - not associated with this one.

These may not be the same phenomenon. (They might or might not). I can explain better when I get back to a real keyboard rather than phone. We might come to wrong conclusions by comparing them together. (I've seen a tendency for you and others to get excited about the Stars and have this obscure obje tive assessment of planet aspects.
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:42 am

Then, on the surface with these two locations, it would appear relocating parans does not work. The symbolism overall should have offered the opposite of your experiences for the two locations, except maybe for the Jupiter Rise Sirius Rise 0,32 in Oriental. How long did you live in Orlando, and how long did you live in Oriental? If you lived in Orlando for a long period with Natal Venus on MC & Jupiter on DSC, this should have been a great benefic experience, if not, then we have to question relocation, at least for your case.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by LeiLei » Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:54 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:42 am
Then, on the surface with these two locations, it would appear relocating parans does not work. The symbolism overall should have offered the opposite of your experiences for the two locations, except maybe for the Jupiter Rise Sirius Rise 0,32 in Oriental. How long did you live in Orlando, and how long did you live in Oriental? If you lived in Orlando for a long period with Natal Venus on MC & Jupiter on DSC, this should have been a great benefic experience, if not, then we have to question relocation, at least for your case.
I don't think so, I think it depends on the person & how they respond to different energies individually. No one is the same. I was born with Venus & Jupiter foreground, those energies are within me. I see relocating to Venus or Jupiter lines as falling under a spell & becoming enchanted. I lived in Oriental for just under 10 years & Orlando just under 5 years.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:00 am

I hear you Jim, the only two Stars I am paying any attention are Regulus & Sirius. Makes no sense LeiLei had great experiences in Oriental, NC unless we include the Jupiter R Sirius R paran.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:04 am

I hear you LeiLei, thats what so good about open forums with methods of astrology, it allows us to investigate things and form our own opinions. Thanks for the feedback.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by LeiLei » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:15 am

I didn't say I had great experiences in Oriental, I said I loved it. I think you're using the word 'great' to mean wonderful though. Using the traditional meaning of great, yes I did have great experiences while living in Oriental.

I've had tough experiences in every place I've lived, seems par for the course for me. But then again, doesn't everyone? I think we should be careful lumping everything into only two categories - good or bad, benefic or malefic. There's no way Ma-Pl, Ve-Pl, Ve-Ma, & Mo-Sa are all bad. When utilized correctly Ma-Pl is a powerhouse, tremendous strength. Ve-Pl all or nothing, so you find something or someone you love & you give it your all. Ve-Ma could be intense passion & being driven towards achieving goal. Mo-Sa could be setting your emotions aside for a time & diving into hard work. And when I think about my time in Oriental everything I just listed occurred. It was a strengthening time for me.

Events in Oriental, in no particular order: I experienced two deaths very close to me while living in Oriental. The deaths occurred in Atlanta but I was living in Oriental. There were other deaths as well but none as close to me as those two. I also married while in Oriental, found out early into the marriage that he was not at all who he pretended to be & I left the marriage. I had two cars totaled by hurricanes. Went up against a slumlord & won. Went back to school & was excellent. I graduated in the six months following my father's death which coincided with the ending of my marriage & having to sell off at least half of all my possessions, a good deal of which held sentimental value. This also coincided with when I truly began to paint. Creativity born from pain & loss. My mother was diagnosed with advanced cancer, also while I was in school. I took incompletes for all of my classes one semester so I could help taking her to her chemotherapy sessions because my father was having bouts of pancreatitis & had been in & out of the hospital himself. My parents were living on the Outer Banks during this time. Oh I started my own cleaning business about a year after moving to Oriental which I kept going until I moved away. I was able to only work part time & still be home to greet my son every day. Lots of day trips to the beach & the Croatan National Forest. My work also enabled me to later go to school full time & I even homeschooled my son for a year. I think that's the major stuff. There's more but I've probably shared too much already so I'll stop here. But it was awesome. I'd love to have another 10 years like it, or 20 or 30. I don't think I ever felt more alive.

I'll detail Orlando later. It will be much shorter, I promise.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:37 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:00 am
I hear you Jim, the only two Stars I am paying any attention are Regulus & Sirius. Makes no sense LeiLei had great experiences in Oriental, NC unless we include the Jupiter R Sirius R paran.
Ill look when we get home. Let's leave out Stars here but have separate threads if you want in the Stars forum (under experimental).

My simple thinking is that parans may be the only thing fixed stars respond to since they're outside the solar system, but planet aspect parans have to be separately confirmed as authentic. Local angularity first, relocated mundane aspects nearly as strong, parans as a lesser add on I suspect (or something like that).
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:44 am

We need to be careful with the words good and bad. In several places, where I have written about benefics and malefics, I'm careful to distinguish those words from good and bad, which usually have moral implications. There are no absolute Goods or absolute bad. The better distinction is that most people think benific times feel good and malefic times feel bad. It's all about the good bad feeling, not the good bad events. And it allows that this is only true of most people. Some people think that bad events feel good. And good events feel bad. And all kinds of stuff in between.

The real beauty of any spectrum is that everybody is on it somewhere.
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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:37 pm

Thanks LeiLei for the details while living in Oriental, it helps me with my research. And I do understand where you are coming from about malefic benefic, bad/good. To help clarify things with my posts: When I use the word benefic I mean pleasant things; malefic—unpleasant things, and both have various degrees of strength depending on other factors which are only understood by the native themselves with their own immediate environments.

Jim, I am only going to look at a couple more Star Parans involving my life with Jupiter & Regulus, and it involves two SSRs. If these two Jupiter-Regulus parans are the only two I have had in my entire life---then I will definitely use em with my work, if not, I am definitely dropping Star Parans with planets, except maybe I will consider Sun-Sirius Parans, depending on what I see with my research.

But I will defintely use Planet Parans particularily when I know someone is still living at their birthplace, I am still undecided with relocating potential planet parans, difficult for me to determine since I have no personal experience with em, I will mainly rely on your work with relocating potential planet parans. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Sun Sep 03, 2023 3:18 am

Re: "The better distinction is that most people think benific times feel good and malefic times feel bad."

Yes, I completely agree. Sometimes, the best thing that can happen to a person (for their development) is one of the very most unpleasant things they can imagine experiencing.

It also is probably why many consider Neptune as malefic, where I see it as an inconvenient benefic! For real-world, bottom-line issues, Neptune can feel like a malefic...but if we are measuring in terms of intangible, universal development and goals; often of a spiritual, creative, or empathetic thrust, it can be GOLD. (ie. anything BUT malefic)

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Re: Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Sun Sep 03, 2023 6:03 am

Without a doubt one of the best manifestations for Neptune symbolism has to do with "spiritual" things. I never will forget Robert Hand saying for natives who were born with prominent Saturn-Neptune symbolism, a good thing for them to do to counter its malefic effects was to take-up some kind of Spiritual (Neptune) discipline (Saturn). But, I never like to see Mars hooked-up with Neptune in one of my Return Charts unless it is backed-up with angular Jupiter symbolism. My wife a couple of years ago had Mars-Neptune featured in her SSR and then with a later Mars-Neptune SLR contacted Covid and was tormented with its sickly effects. However, I have seen with mundane sports charts---Mars-Neptune have to do with wild positive crowd effects, some positive, some negative. Neptune symbolism at times is a tricky planet to discern. :)

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Re: Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:24 pm

Bill Clinton's parans on relocation from Arkansas to Washington are quite interesting.

First, like a whole bunch of U.S. presidents not born with an angular Jupiter, he got one on moving to Washington: Jupiter was about 1° from EP-a. He presided over the strongest economy in decades, at astonishing approval ratings of 73% at the height of his impeachment and left office with a stunningly high 63% approval rating.

He also picked up two parans when he moved to Washington: Mercury-Pluto and Venus-Uranus. And, of course, there were non-stop investigation, interrogation, confrontation, and the consequences of sexual liberty while he was there :)
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Re: Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Oct 15, 2023 4:34 pm

As I start typing this, I don't know where it is going or what I'll see.

It's easiest to assess parans by ruling out aspects we know a chart already has (ruling out ecliptical and mundane/PVL aspects to see if there is something new). But today I'm thinking about the opposite... about aspects we already know exist, but their orbs (and thus their importance) can change.

The sharpest complex hard aspect structure in my chart is my Mars-Jupiter-Uranus-Neptune T-square. This can be read in several ways. I wonder if there is variation across location for which of these is closest. (I know of at least one case of this.) Therefore, I'm going to list below - for both birthplace and my long-standing LA home - orbs of these six aspects three ways: in longitude (invariable anywhere in the world, marked Z), by mundane aspect (marked M), and by paran (taking the closest paran they have for the location, marking it P).

Rochester IN
Mars-Jupiter (0°37'): 4°41' Z / 5°15' M / 0°37' P
Mars-Uranus (0°49'): 4°25' Z / 4°53' M / 0°49' P
Mars-Neptune (0°07'): 2°25' Z / 0°07' M / 6°07' P
Jupiter-Uranus (0°12'): 0°17' Z / 0°21' M / 0°12' P
Jupiter-Neptune (1°40'): 2°16' Z / 5°20' M / 1°40' P
Uranus-Neptune (1°53'): 2°00' Z / 4°59' M / 1°53' P

Los Angeles, CA
Mars-Jupiter (1°34'): 4°41' Z / 5°20' M / 1°34' P
Mars-Uranus (1°40'): 4°25' Z / 4°58' M / 1°40' P
Mars-Neptune (2°25'): 2°25' Z / 4°47' M / 4°29' P
Jupiter-Uranus (0°06'): 0°17' Z / 0°23' M / 0°06' P
Jupiter-Neptune (0°02'): 2°16' Z / 0°33' M / 0°02' P
Uranus-Neptune (0°10'): 2°00' Z /0°10' M / 0°15'

There are changes. Regrettably (for the current thread) these are not strongly affected by parans, but primarily by mundane aspects. Here is the ranking of the six aspects for Rochester (birthplace):

Mars-Neptune (0°07' M)
Jupiter-Uranus (0°12' P)
Mars-Jupiter (0°37' P)
Mars-Uranus (0°49' P)
Jupiter-Neptune (1°40' P)
Uranus-Neptune (1°53' P)

The 0°07' Mars-Neptune mundane square is the unquestionable champ, followed in turn by the obviously important Jupiter-Uranus and its close paran oppositions to Mars. Jupiter-Neptune and Uranus-Neptune are weakest. (None of these aspects is weakest. I mean only weakest in comparison to the rest of the set.)

For Los Angeles, the ranking is:

Jupiter-Neptune (0°02' P)
Jupiter-Uranus (0°06' P)
Uranus-Neptune (0°10' M)
Mars-Jupiter (1°34' P)
Mars-Uranus (1°40' P)
Mars-Neptune (2°25' Z)

Two things are most noticeable. First, with the mundane Mars-Neptune square gone, the wider (but still close) ecliptical orb replaces it - moving Mars-Neptune far down the list. This is quite fitting for the difference of places. Second, while Jupiter-Uranus is within a few minutes for any location, its squares to Neptune are suddenly extremely close in LA both in mundo and by paran. I don't object to these aspects characterizing my life in LA except that in some ways its no more true here than in Indiana: For example, all my theater work was in Indiana, and though I've been involved in dramatic ritual and occult activities in LA, I was deeply involved in occultism in Indiana also.

Coming from Indiana to California, on a side-by-side, the extreme closeness (0°07') of Mars-Neptune at birthplace, relaxed to a "mere" close aspect here is fitting. Mars' opposition to Jupiter-Uranus is not close ecliptically or in mundo at either location, but the paran is partile in Indiana: That is the only place I've ever involved in spots (mostly disinterested, but did well when I joined in) and the only place I had a noteworthy auto accident, so the parans stronger there (partile Indiana, not partile California) seems right. Jupiter-Neptune and Uranus-Neptune were close parans in Indiana but partile in California - as I said, the comparison is unclear, perhaps because they are both Class 1 ecliptical aspects anyway.
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Re: Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:14 pm

Jim, I feel locational natal potential parans are a very subtle, daily brief moment influences one would psychologically experience with the rotation of the earth on its axis; whereas, an active natal paran is in-your face psychological experiences felt constantly. Potential parans are like a daily drip- drip- drip brainwashing effect, psychologically; whereas, an active paran is like: here it is---deal with it constantly in your psyche. Does these words make sense to you Jim? I am sure you could word the differences of a potential paran and active paran better than me as to how they may affect one psychologicially.

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Current thoughts on parans

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2024 8:15 am

I've been taking a fresh look at parans in recent months trying to settle a few things in my mind. I had hoped to put all this off until TMSA has paran capability (and getting that enabled is still a priority goal) but I can't wait that long if I'm going to have a firm statement on the subject in the new big book.

Part of my current conclusion is: The subject of potential parans (parans that would form if the planets in question actually came to angles) needs a lot more research!

We all know that active parans - parans formed by planets actually on angles - are the most powerful of aspects, whether it is on natal, a return, or an ingress. (And why wouldn't they be? This combines two exact angularities with an exact mundane aspect between them.)

Another solid conclusion, confirmed by work done collaboratively on the current thread, is that potential parans become extremely visible in relocation. They make a huge difference! At some point I'll have to reassess whether they even compete with relocated angularities. In any case, they show quite vividly when location changes. This is a solid take-away.

We also know that they become valuable in predictive astrology, when they become active on solar and lunar return angles.

But all of that still doesn't address the primary question I've been digging behind the scenes to answer, which is whether potential parans at birth persist in the same sense as natal ecliptical aspects when one moves to a new location.
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Re: Current thoughts on parans

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2024 8:15 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2024 8:15 am
But all of that still doesn't address the primary question I've been digging behind the scenes to answer, which is whether potential parans at birth persist in the same sense as natal ecliptical aspects when one moves to a new location.
I want to write with a narrow focus on two specific questions: Do potential parans in the natal chart (for birthplace) operate in the same sense as ecliptical and mundane (PV, mundoscope) aspects in a nativity? And: Does this persist when the person relocates.

On the first question, I've long known that they have some natal expression not so much because this is visible itself but because relocation makes the loss and gain of new potential parans so visible! If this is true (it is), then they must already be operative in the chart.

I am less sure they show as character, though. Perhaps because their entire definition is inextricably tied to angularity, they seem much more tied to events. Even as natal aspects, they seem to be more descriptive of things that happen TO someone, and only secondarily descriptive of character. This is pretty bizarre since those events necessarily stream from character and choices, but it's what I see. Also, most published examples dwell on events, of character: This could be the event-and-prediction bias of astrologers writing about the topic, or it could be something innate in the way the aspects work.

Even when they show character, it is more vividly character clearly evolved in response to events. It's a little strange, but it's easier to think of these parans as if they were aspects angular in a "permanent return chart" - activate the part of my brain that interprets returns rather than the part that interprets natals - than to think of them as natal aspects. Even as natal aspects they seem to show things and circumstances that happen to someone, from which character develops, rather than character that stirs events.

This observation and interpretation of impressions, if correct, may confirm the mechanism for potential parans working. Increasingly, I think of them as persistently important ONLY because they keep coming to angles - keep becoming active parans - and not because of their innate existence. For example, one time every day each potential paran comes to the angles and becomes active. Perhaps that's not enough or perhaps it gives such a surge in that moment that it establishes itself in our psyches. Also, on average, each potential paran is going to be foreground (and thus active) in a few lunar returns every year (among other charts). Finally, they will all come to quotidian angles once a year for each of the three known good quotidian systems. Though they don't pop up often, they do pop up as persistent, recurring features of our lives. That may be the only reason they work at all.

This brings me to the main new thing I wanted to say, the current direction of a stabilizing opinion:

I don't think potential parans survive moving away from birthplace. I think they are entirely location-specific. Sometimes they may build personality responses and habits that one has to outgrow after relocating, but the trait itself (and the environmental circumstances that feed it) go away. - I could be diverted from this opinion with sufficient contrary data, but current available data seems to confirm it: It seems that people with potential parans at birthplace experience them while living there as external circumstances that eventually motivate personality patterns; then, when they move away, the paran goes away entirely, circumstances change so that the personality traits have room to start subsiding, and for all other respects the aspect is gone.
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Re: Parans - Important hidden aspects in a Natal Chart (IMHO)

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2024 2:05 pm

Jim wrote:
Perhaps that's not enough or perhaps it gives such a surge in that moment that it establishes itself in our psyches.
Yes, this is what I believe about potential parans in a natal, they brainwash into our psyches for good or bad depending on aspect because they are momentary daily moments ingrained into our psyches over long periods living under em.
Jim wrote:
I don't think potential parans survive moving away from birthplace.
I have never thought about this much because I have never moved far enough away from birthplace, but if true, malefic potential parans need to be moved away from their daily mental/thought processes.

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Question About Mundane Aspects

Post by Venus_Daily » Tue Jan 16, 2024 1:06 am

Are Mundane Aspects lost when we move or travel. With my recent epiphany that I need to move to NY permanently, I will be losing my Moon/Venus, Sun/Neptune, and Sun/Jupiter mundane aspects. My moon/venus aspect is my favorite, and I feel like it has added a deep communion with the divine feminine. I notice this aspect in conjunction with my Sun/Neptune mundane aspects have created a combination of energy where people, especially men are unconsciously attracted to me. Am I optimistic to believe the Moon/Venus may never fade just because of the moon's instinctive and intuitive nature? Meaning, my instinctive femininity has turned into a learned behavior.

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Re: Question About Mundane Aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:29 am

Venus_Daily wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2024 1:06 am
Are Mundane Aspects lost when we move or travel. With my recent epiphany that I need to move to NY permanently, I will be losing my Moon/Venus, Sun/Neptune, and Sun/Jupiter mundane aspects. My moon/venus aspect is my favorite, and I feel like it has added a deep communion with the divine feminine. I notice this aspect in conjunction with my Sun/Neptune mundane aspects have created a combination of energy where people, especially men are unconsciously attracted to me. Am I optimistic to believe the Moon/Venus may never fade just because of the moon's instinctive and intuitive nature? Meaning, my instinctive femininity has turned into a learned behavior.
This thread is about parans, not mundane aspects (i.e., mundoscope aspects). They don't necessarily operate under the same rules (the same things aren't necessarily true about the two things). I'll answer here, but it really should have a separate thread (and, if this goes further, perhaps you could start one as a new topic). - I'm surprised you didn't mention your Sun-Jupiter mundane square, which is your closest (and mathematically most important) mundane aspect.

Since it's a paran thread, let me start by answering the question you didn't ask: With regard to parans, I've become increasingly convinced that they are indeed lost when we relocate except to the extent we have built habits and character structures into ourselves that (just by what we know from psychology) persist until they erode or other kinds of life circumstances overwrite them.

Your question, though is about mundoscope (prime vertical) aspects. These do change as we relocate, though I'm not at all sure we lose those that are in the natal. They seem to erode or lighten: For example, I was stunned to find that my Mars-Neptune square was only 0°07' wide (mundanely) at birthplace. This is clearly a strong aspect in my chart at 2°25' ecliptical orb, and the greater intensity (and event symbolism) fit conditions when I lived at my birthplace better than it has in my adult life in California (though it is still strong). I could judge this one better if it didn't exist in California at all, but it does seem it significantly lightened.

So there are things about which I am certain and others about which I am not fully certain. I'm certain we pick up new mundane aspects. I'm certain that at the least those from a place we've lived for many years (and even more so from birthplace) at least continue as established habits and engrained traits; and I'm pretty sure that when orbs change the aspects rearrange their priority in our psyches. What I don't know for sure is whether the astrological impetus entirely goes away when you leave mundane aspects behind leaving birthplace.

Eminent people with natal mundane aspects often remain great examples of the aspect even after they move away from the birthplace, arguing for the principle that “you never lose the natal chart.”

Take Albert Einstein, born in Ulm, Germany with a 0°55’ Moon-Uranus mundane square and a moderate Moon-Pluto mundane opposition. He did not have these in his chart relocated to Pasadena or Princeton. Was Einstein less brilliant or less quirky at Princeton than he was in Europe? No, of course not. It seems that he kept these as part of himself. On the other hand, his genius came from many parts of his chart, and he already had decades of experience stirring the neural pathways of his genius and habituating his quirky, outlier personality; and his life was far less disrupted and unstable after he came to America than before.

I think, at present, the best course is to assume that natal mundane aspects still operate after relocation at least as habituated behavior and perhaps as permanent psychological energies, though less likely to erupt as explicit events.

In my own case there are no changes in aspects but their relative importance changes as mundane aspect orbs change in many cases. Here are my birthplace aspects, keeping hard aspects only,

Mars-Neptune sq 0° 7' M - 100%
Venus-Pluto sq 0°13' - 100%
Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17' - 100%
Mercury-Saturn co 2°24' - 94%
Uranus-Neptune sq 2° 0' - 92%
Jupiter-Neptune sq 2°16' - 90%
----------------------------
Mars-Uranus op 4°25' - 79%
Mars-Jupiter op 4°41' - 76%
----------------------------
Sun-Mars sq 6°28' - 24%
Sun-Neptune co 8°53' - 20%

Here are my natal hard aspects for my residence in Los Angeles:

Uranus-Neptune sq 0°11' M - 100%
Venus-Pluto sq 0°13' - 100%
Jupiter-Uranus co 0°17' - 100%
Jupiter-Neptune sq 0°33' M - 100%
Mercury-Saturn co 1°36' M - 97%
Mars-Neptune sq 2°25' - 89%
----------------------------
Mars-Uranus op 4°25' - 79%
Mars-Jupiter op 4°41' - 76%
Sun-Mars sq 4°47' M - 57%
----------------------------
Sun-Neptune co 8°53' - 20%

They are the same ten aspects. but their orbs change so they hold a different priority in the overall balance of impulses in my psyche.

Here are your hard natal aspects - mundane and ecliptical - for birthplace, similarly sorted for overall importance:

Mars-Uranus co 0°47' - 99%
Sun-Jupiter sq 0°53' M - 99%
Saturn-Pluto co 2°14' M - 95%
Venus-Jupiter sq 1°42' - 94%
Sun-Mars sq 2°21' - 89%
----------------------------
Moon-Venus sq 3°01' M - 82%
Sun-Uranus sq 3°08' - 81%
Jupiter-Neptune co 4°32' - 78%
Sun-Neptune sq 3°44' M - 73%
----------------------------
Venus-Neptune sq 6°14' - 29%
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