Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Q&A and discussion on Houses including house models and domification systems.
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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:09 pm

Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:41 pm
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:Part 3

Now, we come to the really technical part of the UDS, the dreaded math!

The first part is easy. The Tenth House is the Midheaven, and by the logic of the system this is where the meridian (the one you are on, from one Pole to the other) intersects the ecliptic.

While usually formulas are presented first and the explanations of the abbreviations are given later, I'll reverse the process and list the abbreviations and their definitions first. I've always thought that the standard way was sure to induce anxiety and incomprehension upon those unfamiliar with the conventions.

T = RAMC in degrees

E = obliquity of the ecliptic (given precisely by Solar Fire)

S = 0 for the MC
= 30 for the 11th cusp
= 60 for the 12th cusp
= 90 for the 1st cusp
= 120 for the 2nd cusp
= 150 for the 3rd cusp

H = geographic latitude

B = tan^-1 (tan H sin S)

A = tan^-1 (tan E sin B cos B sin (T + S))

R = T + S + A

L = tan^-1 (tan R / cos E)
= celestial longitude of the cusp

Apply the SVP to L to get the sidereal longitude.

When creating a spreadsheet or program to do this, remember that is it is often (as with Excel or Open Office) to convert the degrees to radians first, and vice versa when necessary.

I will endeavor to reproduce Frederici's own examples for comparison. I would do examples, but am currently experiencing technical difficulties. I'm using a public computer that I may not install Open Office onto, and I'd rather not upload my own OO file to the forum (if I can) without knowing exactly what is in it. I'd particularly like to see Arena's UDS cusps, so she can make a comparison and provide comments.


To be continued

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:10 pm

Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:28 pm
Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:In general, I think this topic, the geometry of the various house systems, needs to use very high-resolution 3-D instructional graphics. Books and articles have traditionally presented drawings, but we need to enter the computer age. Astrologers would benefit immensely if this could be done.
View of horizon

That's the Fourmi Lab's sky map. I HOPE it depicts the sky at 23:40 UT, 08-02-1972, 66°4'N, 17°18'W which data means something to someone in this discussion (waving at Arena...)

You can pan that map to the east or west, and you can also choose to look at the sky as it would look if you were gazing straight up ( Sky Map ), and you can tip and roll it. You can add stars, star names, astronomical constellations, and all kinds of things to it. I took most stuff out so you could see the map. It gets really busy really fast.

ETA: If you switch the latitude from N to S, you get a different map, that may or may not be the view of the rest of the sky, below your feet rather than over your head. It might be you have to switch the longitude from W to E, or maybe you need to switch both.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:11 pm

Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:53 am
Arena wrote:Looking forward to moire. Found some videos last night to look at.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:12 pm

Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:48 pm
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:Part 4

For those with a mathematical leaning and wish to try their hand at translating the UDS formulas into modern code, here are some example to check your work, as given by Frederici:

MC = 0 Aries (all values in TZ)

@10N:
11th: 3 Tau
12th: 5 Gem
1st: 3:54 Can
2nd: 1 Leo
3rd: 29 Leo

@ 30N:
11th: 6 Tau
12th: 10 Gem
1st: 9:47 Can
2nd: 6 Leo
3rd: [1] Vir [Frederici gives 0 Vir, but painstaking examination shows it to be 1.28 Vir. I've concluded this was a misprint.]

@ 40N:
11th: 7 Tau
12th: 12 Gem
1st: 11:05 Can
2nd: 8 Leo
3rd: 2 Vir

@ 50N:
11th: 8 Tau
12th: 12 Gem
1st: 11:05 Can
2nd: 8 Leo
3rd: 4 Vir

@ 60N:
11th: 9 Tau
12th: 11 Gem
1st: 9:47 Can
2nd: 7 Leo
3rd: 4 Vir


He gives as another example a chart set at latitude 52N and a ST of 16:20

10 (MC): 6:50 Sag
11th: 24:24 Sag
12th: 23:08 Cap
1st: 17:44 Aqu
2nd: 6:37 Ari
3rd: 13:54 Tau

Last July, I sent an email to Solar Fire requesting the addition of the UDS to their selection of house systems. I got a nice reply back that it would be forwarded to their programmers, but (of course) no promises.


To be continued

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:25 pm

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:15 am
Arena wrote:I think we might be off trackto even use houses, other than just the original whole signs. Inside the whole signs we just use the cusp,the same degr as the asc, as the sensitive degr for each 'house' or sign. It works for all charts, all over the world.

But am still intersted to know how this uds system would work.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Thu May 07, 2015 5:02 pm
Arena wrote:Getting back on this topic. Was reading a bit on this:
http://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/ast ... itudes.php
http://www.astrowisdom.net/articles/ast ... system.php

I'm not sure the system you proposed was similar to this one... but If I understood you correctly in calculations we would start with the MC on top of chart and the first house cusp would be 90° to the left, so it is actually the EP?

I've been checking my personal chart and have realized this is a very sensitive point in my chart, having to do with very important events. It seems like it should actually be considered an "angle"

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:27 pm

Thu May 07, 2015 9:11 pm
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Arena wrote:I'm not sure the system you proposed was similar to this one... but If I understood you correctly in calculations we would start with the MC on top of chart and the first house cusp would be 90° to the left, so it is actually the EP?
Not quite. In the UDS, the MC is the cusp of the tenth, but the first cusp is the "Orient" (so named by Frederici). This is a distinct point different from the Ascendent, the East Point, or anything else. It is always within 10 degrees of squaring the MC. Furthermore, it's highly questionable whether it marks "angularity" in any sense - it may simply be that it simply marks the first house cusp ... If it has any validity at all.

In this system, as in some others, angularity is best treated as a separate concept from the houses. In the Campanus system, for instance, angularity and the topical houses are both formed around the same structure: the Prime Vertical. If one used the UDS, I would say that angularity is shown in the Campanus mundoscope (as indicated by Bradley's work), but the UDS would show the topical houses.

-Derek

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:28 pm

Sun May 24, 2015 9:02 pm
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:Arena is our resident high-latitude member and she has expressed dissatisfaction with what she reads in her horoscope using the usual house systems.

Here is something for you to play with, Arena. At last, I've been able to calculate your UDS cusps.

10 = CAP 09:58 (= MC)
11 = AQU 05:19
12 = PIS 14:10
01 = ARI 20:15 (=Orient)
02 = TAU 22:26
03 = GEM 22:55

Do the planetary placements make any better sense to you?

-Derek

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:29 pm

Mon May 25, 2015 2:38 pm
Arena wrote:OMG, thank you so much for the trouble of calculating this DDK :) :D :idea:
The 1st house being Aries makes total sense (at least for all those astrologers that consider the 1st house as describing your appearance)... but that can also be the placement of my Moon in Aries.
I have to look into this to see all the planet's placements.
Before I continue with exploring, may I ask you this:
Is this calculated according to a birth hour of 23.40 in Húsavík - or Reykjavík Iceland?

I didn't think the MC would move so much from the other house systems? It moves almost 20°?
All other house systems have the MC at 23,30 Sag for a sidereal zodiac.
I read through this thread again and I see the Meridian house system mentioned... so is this maybe something close to that one?

Thanks again.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:30 pm

Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:00 pm
Arena wrote:
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:Arena is our resident high-latitude member and she has expressed dissatisfaction with what she reads in her horoscope using the usual house systems.

Here is something for you to play with, Arena. At last, I've been able to calculate your UDS cusps.

10 = CAP 09:58 (= MC)
11 = AQU 05:19
12 = PIS 14:10
01 = ARI 20:15 (=Orient)
02 = TAU 22:26
03 = GEM 22:55

Do the planetary placements make any better sense to you?

-Derek
Coming back to this topic. You expressed that you had made an error in these calculations. Not counting for sidereal longitudes?
Could you please tell me how I would find the right cusps? Should I just move them all back by the same number of degrees?

I found this article that seems to maybe speaking of something similar to what you are describing.
http://cura.free.fr/09-10/1104newk.html

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:31 pm

Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:30 pm
Arena, the SVP when you were born was 24°21'27. To get Sidereal longitudes, you add the SVP to the Tropical longitude, and subtract 30°.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:41 pm

Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:38 am
Arena wrote:Ok thanks J
I just wanted to make sure this was what needed to be done with the points/cusps that DDK had calculated.
Did you look into the link I gave?
Those who have specifically looked into the higher latitudes seem to be in aggrement that we need to use other methods for finding the right angles and houses.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:50 pm
Didn't look at the link, but house systems at higher latitudes have always been a mess. It's one of the reasons I don't depend on houses for interpretation. I think they kind of fall apart at the equator too.

If there's anything to houses, there has to be something to houses everywhere in the world, not just between 30°and 60° latitude. I think house systems have to be more localized, and we'd do better to go outside and look where the zodiac crosses the meridian to the south (for the MC) or the north (for the IC) and where the zodiac crosses the horizon at the east and west points and then just divide up the quarters as best we can.

Trying to do it just using math isn't working, mostly because we don't know what a house system actually IS. You can't use math to find where the cusps are if you don't know what the cusps are based on. So we need to go back to observation (which can be done from your computer and for any date and time if you go to John Walkers interactive skymaps).

When we figure out what, exactly, we're trying to locate with our house systems, then we can reduce that to a mathmatical equation. I'm pretty sure that will involve a lot of spherical trigonometry, but that's the best I can offer. I think with all our computers, we have a better shot at house systems than anytime in the past. Sadly it's frowned upon for astronomers and mathematicians to study astrology so they can do something generally useful with their arts.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:50 pm

Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:59 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:House systems are only a mess at latitude extremes because people keep trying to keep them analogous to signs - similar odds, similar behaviors, etc.

Campanus (primarily through the mundoscope) reflects where the planets actually are spatially - what the sky actually looks like in terms of planet deployment around the sky. It's a quasi-planetarium.

So if houses appear whacko in extreme latitudes, it is (and, more importantly, it SHOULD be) because the sky looks whacko in extreme latitudes. A good domification system should reflect that whackoness.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:51 pm

Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:16 pm
DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Jim Eshelman wrote:House systems are only a mess at latitude extremes because people keep trying to keep them analogous to signs - similar odds, similar behaviors, etc.
You're correct, Mr. E. The zodiac is one thing, and the houses (using that term loosely) are another thing. Cyril Fagan's promotion of the Octoscope, which uses eight houses, can be interpreted as an effort to break astrologers of this habit of equating the two, or even of analogizing them.

-Derek

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:55 pm

Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:50 pm
Arena, look here: Fourmi Sky Map for Arena's birthdata

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:56 pm

Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:58 am
Arena wrote:Posting this in the correct location now :)

I'm sorry if this would possibly bother you guys who are used to just take the angularity as given by ASC/DSC axis. I myself keep coming back to this idea of there being another (maybe more important point) system or that I need to take a closer look to the East point or maybe Orient point as the "ASC" point for the high northern latitude where I live. I've been thinking a lot about my children and what they seem to me to express (planetary). It may be easier to look at others than myself for answers.

I am not saying that I should dismiss the normal ASC point, but to explore further into this EP or OP for people up here.

I would like to explain by examples.

My oldest son (28th August 2000 at 6.05 in Rvk) has Sun partile conjunct his ASC, but he has his Moon-Mars conjunction close to his EP and in opposition to Uranus.
When I read about Sun angular and then Moon-Mars aspect as angular and in opposition to Uranus the latter seems to fit him better. He has indeed surprised me in the easiness he has with "performance" in a way. He has never had any trouble standing up in front of a crowd to talk or play, and he has never been shy like many children are. He has a quick temper and through these 15 years of being with him, the kind of revolting spirit is on top. He wants to be his own boss, he has trouble following our rules (and other's rules) and is rebellious. To me that is more an expression of the EP than the ASC. He is really lazy and is not athletic at all.

My second son (27th March 2009 at 00.10 in Rvk) does not have planets close to his EP, so I cannot really compare in his case. He has Saturn closest to an angle (on MC) and Saturn also squares his EP. Mars is the second angular on his IC. He has big temper and has a need to move around, is more of athletic type than his brother. But he has always been the most reserved of the bunch. He enjoys helping grown ups and being a part of work, like carpentry, garden work or REAL work. He even gets other children to help him work sometimes, like garden work :D I asked him this summer what he most enjoys, and he said he loves to help us work. That got me to think that he would gain a whole new experience from relocating. That is unusual for a child and probably very descriptive of a child with Saturn angular.

My daughter (15th Dec. 2010 at 04.15 in Rvk) has the Moon-Saturn opposition closest to her angles on ASC-DSC axis. But yet she seems to express something entirely different. And I notice that Venus is very close to her EP. It is indeed partile conjunct the EP. And she seems to be an expression of Venus, rather than Moon-Saturn. She loves to sing, dance, listen to music and is very expressive. Everywhere she goes people "fall for her", she makes everyone smile and laugh and people just seem to love her from the moment they lay eyes on her. She screams VENUS at me, rather than Moon-Saturn. There is nothing melancholy about her and she is not reserved at all nor is she a sad child. But she does indeed try to take control of all situations and she RULES and makes the rules as well. She is not very fond of grown up rules.

I don't know, maybe the EP is important for everyone on this earth, not only the northern latitude folks. But it keeps coming back to me as a more expressive point in the chart than the ASC.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:58 pm

Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:13 pm
Arena wrote: I would like to explain by examples.
My oldest son (28th August 2000 at 6.05 in Rvk) has Sun partile conjunct his ASC, but he has his Moon-Mars conjunction close to his EP and in opposition to Uranus.
Your elder son has Sun partile (0°16') conjunct his ASC, and a 1°33' Moon-Mars conjunction, the midpoint of which is 0°4' off opposing his Uranus. The Ept is 3°46' from Mars, but further from both the Moon and Uranus, so 3°46' is as close at that aspect comes to the EPT. Not all that close. However, his Moon forms a 0°34' square to your Moon, bringing both his Mars and Uranus into the mix. I think you do see a lot more of that Moon-Mars-Uranus energy from him than that angular Sun. That's not about what's angular in his chart. It's about the synergy between you and your son.
My second son (27th March 2009 at 00.10 in Rvk) does not have planets close to his EP, so I cannot really compare in his case. He has Saturn closest to an angle (on MC) and Saturn also squares his EP. Mars is the second angular on his IC.
Saturn is conjunct your son's MC 1°53'. Yes, it's square the Eastpoint, but that's like saying he has a Libra ASC and also an Aries DSC, as if those are two different things. Uranus at 28 Aqu 32 is far closer to the IC at 23 Aqu 59 than Mars, at 14 Aqu 25. Working in the mundoscope, Uranus is 9°40' from the IC while Mars is 14°59 away from it. Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by second angular on his IC, and you mean second to Uranus?
My daughter (15th Dec. 2010 at 04.15 in Rvk) has the Moon-Saturn opposition closest to her angles on ASC-DSC axis. But yet she seems to express something entirely different. And I notice that Venus is very close to her EP. It is indeed partile conjunct the EP.
Your daughter has a 5°14' Moon-Saturn opposition. Saturn is 4°41' north of the ASC while the Moon is fully 10°55' south of the DSC. I don't consider this a close aspect, nor one that's close to either angle. and it's not a paran. Her Venus is exactly 1° from conjunct the Eastpoint. This does not mean we should, in every chart, ignore the ASC in favor of the EPT. This means your daughter's Moon-Saturn opposition is not that close to any angle, while her Venus is. Nothing to do with Northern latitudes or the ASC not being as valid an angle as the Ept. It just means your daughter's has a planet sitting on it.
I don't know, maybe the EP is important for everyone on this earth, not only the northern latitude folks. But it keeps coming back to me as a more expressive point in the chart than the ASC.
I'm left wondering if you and I mean the same thing when we say Eastpoint. I mean it as described in the last paragraph of page 7 and the first of page 8 of Jim's Introduction to Sidereal Mundane Astrology. I can't quote out of the pdf on this machine. I honestly think if you went back to the basics here rather than worrying about house systems, you'd get more out of astrology at this point in your learning process.
That said, yes, the Eastpoint is important for everyone on earth, because it's an angle, but not to the extent of replacing the ASC with it, even in northern latitudes, without a lot more evidence.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 9:59 pm

Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:37 am
Arena wrote:I'l get back to you on this one JSAD. I am reading through Jim's book now - am half way through it.

I am a bit surprised how you seem to be willing to "judge" whatever I have to say about this issue instead of stopping to just think about it.
This was a suggestion from the author of this domification system. He suggested that the "orient point" should be used as the cusp of 1st house instead of the ASC. I am just open to suggestions as I do not see in people around me that their ASC sign is descriptive of their appearances.

Just a short remark about my older son. This is not just my view on him. I've been called to meetings with all of his teachers several times. He has this kind of energy towards more people than just his mother :)

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:11 pm

Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:19 pm
I'm sorry you felt I was judging you about something. It wasn't meant that way.

I'm sure other people feel your son's Moon-Mars aspect too. But I think you feel it more strongly because of the partile aspect between your moon and his. I don't think it's angular whether you use the EP instead of the ASC.

Solar Fire says the point it calls the EP is the equatorial ascendant. Jim says that's not what the EP is, and I can't tell if he means SF is incorrectly using "equatorial ascendant" as a synonym for the EP or if they're calculating the EP incorrectly. Either way, now that discrepancy's been pointed out, I don't trust they're doing it right, and will be looking into that.

I don't agree with discarding the Ascendant in the horoscope. But..
I don't think any of our current house systems work well, and not just in high latitudes. I suspect strongly if you use the (correctly computed) EP instead of the Ascendant to demarcate the cusp of the first house, you'll be closer to the system that was used by whoever invented/discovered the houses. But I still think the ASC is at least as important as the EP.

When I first started out studying astrology, I loved the idea you could figure out what somebody's ASC was from their physical characteristics. Sadly that didn't work out with anybody I had birthdata for. I repeated the experiment several times as I got more birthdata to work with. If I were going to bother to repeat that experiment today, I'd go to the Astrodatabank's main page and look up images people in the list of birthdays for today and yesterday in google. I'd try to guess what their ASC was. Then I'd go look them up in the Astrodatabase databank and translate any charts that had an accurate birthtime into the real zodiac and see how many I got right.

I suspect the astrologers who this worked for were actually psychic and they weren't actually using astrology to do this.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:12 pm

Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:32 pm
Danica wrote:One very strong evidence for me that ASC is real and working is how sensitive it is to transits - observe exact "hard" aspects of fast planets to it and see in your own practice!

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:17 pm

Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:55 am
SteveS wrote:I totally agree with Danica. The most inhibitive I have ever ‘felt’ in my entire life was when t. Saturn was stationed on my Asc in 1985. Although not a fast transiting planet-- still solid proof for me in the context of my life the Asc is a very sensitive point in our natals. I have done a-lot of work with the fast transiting planets to my Asc since Jup is cnj my Asc and know this point in my chart is very sensitive. In fact, recently, this past Thru I had a very sensitive Jup experience with t. Moon cnj my Asc in an environmental setting conducive to a Jupiter incident.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:18 pm

Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:15 am
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:Solar Fire says the point it calls the EP is the equatorial ascendant. Jim says that's not what the EP is, and I can't tell if he means SF is incorrectly using "equatorial ascendant" as a synonym for the EP or if they're calculating the EP incorrectly. Either way, now that discrepancy's been pointed out, I don't trust they're doing it right, and will be looking into that.
I'm only disagreeing with the labeling. Yes, the calculated point is the same as what your Ascendant would be if you weren't born where you were born but, instead, were born at the same moment, the same longitude, but at the equator instead of your actual birth latitude. But... what in the world would that possibly mean? You weren't born there.
I don't agree with discarding the Ascendant in the horoscope.
Me either, of course. Here's what I think is the big issue, though (relevant to this immediate discussion): The EP has a tight, concentrated maximum orb. Every small study I have done shows its effect dropping off at least by 3 degrees, sometimes by 2 degrees. On the other hand, Ascendant is part of the base structure that determines foreground zones, so (measured along PV) planets at least out to 15 degrees from Ascendant are as strong as planets 2-3 degrees from EP in RA. If switching them means that you are measuring a 10 degree zone either side of EP as your foreground zone, then I am complete sure that you would be using fictitious information.
I don't think any of our current house systems work well, and not just in high latitudes.
Whenever I see this oft-repeated statement, I have to ask... work well for what? What exact goal or condition do you feel they don't meet? My first concern is angularity - correct measurement of proximity to horizon and meridian. My second priority is correct representation of how things actually looked, either in a space matrix or time matrix (depending on your domification theory) at that correct place and time. If houses are indeed interpretively meaningful in anything resembling their classic fashion (which I think they are, though as weaker or subtler factors) then a third factor is correct placement for correct interpretations. I think Campanus meets all of these goals optimally.

So... what function is it that you think doesn't "work well"?
I suspect strongly if you use the (correctly computed) EP instead of the Ascendant to demarcate the cusp of the first house, you'll be closer to the system that was used by whoever invented/discovered the houses.
That the word horoscope literally means "Ascendant" suggests strongly that drafted charts were Ascendant-driven from their earliest forms, and the Greek-transplanted systems surviving (after millennia of some distortion) in India are entirely Ascendant driven (either equal from ACS or whole-sign from Asc sign). On the other hand - and my main point in this paragraph - "whoever invented/discovered the houses" did so in moderate latitudes where the distinction from equal house was much slighter and it would have been harder (almost impossible) to distinguish one math theory from another.

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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:20 pm

Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:06 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Jupiter Sets At Dawn wrote:I don't think any of our current house systems work well, and not just in high latitudes.
So... what function is it that you think doesn't "work well"?
Work well observationally, or mathematically. But mostly observationally. I do not believe ancient Egyptians worked out a house system using co-sines. Spherical trig is easy when you stand outside and look. Houses are not. House systems all work just fine at the equator, but when you go up to Iceland or Finland or Alaska, none of them are useful, even when worked out mathmatically and drawn out in a horoscope chart, much less when standing outside and looking.

If you go to the Formilab's astrolab at the time and place Arena was born you can see what I'm talking about. You can locate some of the planets and where they are in the zodiac, and locate the Ascendant, and even the MC, but it doesn't make sense to divide the arc between the MC and the ASC in thirds while also dividing the arc between the ASC and the IC into thirds.

I do not believe the houses are a mathematical based construct. I am sure they were observationally based, and I am also sure if they "worked" near the equator, they should also work equally well in polar regions.
I suspect strongly if you use the (correctly computed) EP instead of the Ascendant to demarcate the cusp of the first house, you'll be closer to the system that was used by whoever invented/discovered the houses.
That the word horoscope literally means "Ascendant" suggests strongly that drafted charts were Ascendant-driven from their earliest forms,
Unless someone did something similar to confusing the "equatorial ascendant" label with the "east point" label. The word horoscope means ascendant, but ascendant could have meant the point where the sun rises. Manilius certainly thought that's what it meant. I understand surveying, and shooting the stars to figure out where you are. It's not that difficult. Houses are not based on the ecliptic.
On the other hand - and my main point in this paragraph - "whoever invented/discovered the houses" did so in moderate latitudes where the distinction from equal house was much slighter and it would have been harder (almost impossible) to distinguish one math theory from another.
So how would an Ancient Egyptian who was given a parka and moved to the polar regions figure out the houses?

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Jupiter Sets at Dawn
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Re: Frederici's "Universal Domification System"

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun May 14, 2017 10:25 pm

Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:29 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:Long answer when I'm not limited to my phone & not moving between wineries...

Campanus covers EXACTLY what you're reaching for. Just walk outside & look - including in extreme latitudes - & it is exactly what U see.

Houses may be INHERENTLY mathematical, but I agree that they weren't stumbled onto it that way. (Mechanics & physics are inherently mathematical, but that's not how the wheel was invented.)

OTHER I also agree houses, if they exist, are not likely zodiacal, but I think there's a very high likelihood that this is how they were first conceived - that 1st Century Greeks created turn as mental constructs independent of any "look outside" observation.

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