A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Q&A and discussion on Houses including house models and domification systems.
coolcoolwcr
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A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:06 am

I hope I am not being smart here but I have come up with a very easy and quick method to tell which house system is correct


Just watch the transit of moon conjunct each of your natal planets and notice what happens at the time of conjunction because it should trigger events/feelings related to the house.

For example I have mars in 7th house and each time moon transit conjunct or oppose my 7th house mars relationship stuff is triggered. Either I feel agreeasion from other people or other people appears forceful and direct or circumstance requires me to be assertive in relationship.(there is this one time I woke up from dream and found transiting moon trine natal mars 20minutes from exact---in my dream I was fighting with other people) And I notice when moon conjunct my 11th house Jupiter I am complimented or welcomed in social circle, enhancing my self-esteem(my Jupiter is sextile 10th house sun so this recognition in public theme is also triggered)

If you don't know whether your planets is in this house or the next one you can just use this method to determine which house it really is in. I have found campanula house system perfectly correlates to my life pattern so I have no problem accepting it.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:16 am

People have been watching the moon transit their charts for hundreds, if not thousands, of years and yet the "which house system" question remains unanswered. House systems are a subject of great debate in most astrological forums, even this one, although we mostly debate the theory and the math, not the details. :geek:

As Jim was suggesting in answer to another post you made elsewhere, houses don't consistently hold true for most people. Sure, you can find something to fit if you work at defining what this house or that planet means loosely enough, but that's not astrology. That's a guessing game or a puzzle. There used to see more of that when astrologers talked, but now the game has moved on to "add another meaning to your pet asteroid".

I think you're going about this backwards anyway. Instead of assigning meaning to the houses and then finding a way for Planet X to mean whatever you've already decided it should mean when it's in one specific house, reverse that.

Collect 100 charts (or a thousand if you can, the more the better, use astrodatabank.com if you don't have an extensive personal collection,) and list out the ones that have Mercury in the 2nd house, for instance, and then look up the biographies and list out all the traits these people have. Start out with a big list of traits the natives actually display, and narrow it down to those they have in common with each other.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:54 pm

i am only using real life experience to verify validity of houses. There was.quite a long time I believe I have mars in 8th house and Jupiter in 12house according to placidus house system, until I learned to use transit method to double check it.

I have seen so many many real life examples that prove astrology house exists and it's a 12 house anticlockwise system. Just recently transiting Jupiter is in 3rd house opposing natal Venus in 9th house in my dad's horoscope and he has been going on a vacation traveling to different places in the country , attending numerous birthday party, wedding ceremony, and celebration party with his friends/associates along the way. It can't be complete coincidence his natal Venus is placed in 9th house indicating good experience in long distance journey. So I don't want to waste my time trying to prove whether astrology houses exists, to me they do exist, the real problem is which house system is the right one. And by studying your transit you can determine your planet's house placement.

I think people are still debating which house system is correct because they don't put their mind into it. Just as so many people are still fooled by tropical signs because they don't take their time to think about it seriously. And I don't feel motivated to study 1000 strangers chart because I only care about horoscope of people close to me and my own chart.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:29 pm

As to jim's case I think he just fails to correlate his 2nd house planets with his real life experience, due to a lack of open-minded thinking style. Mercury conjunct Saturn in 2nd house could indicate many things. Mercury Saturn people are themselves quite conservative and afraid in their thinking due to inhibition effect of Saturn. Fagan didn't condemn house system and certainly angularity can coexist with house system. 'Thingisht thought' was fagan criticizing a confused use of horary house rulership with natal astrology, not a condemnation of house system themselves.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:35 pm

With all respect, these anecdotal examples aren't very good evidence of anything. For example, your dad's experience is extremely capable of such Jupiter-Venus aspects under most circumstances - every detail you gave except perhaps the travel detail is quite standard, and the travel component is hardly rare for the aspect. You've picked one detail known to you that fits a 9th house idea and amplified it, while there are probably many other details you could have mentioned that wouldn't have been 9th house themed at all. (Additionally, are you really saying that every time his Venus is transited, he travels - or something similar?)

I understand that this is persuasive to you. I don't at all share your persuasion and, in fact, could add that, over the decades of looking for evidence of house legitimacy, this is one of the first things I looked at and revisited on other occasions, and it was one of the easiest to dismiss. Transits are simply too powerful, too much a part of our astrological expression, but with outcomes routinely unrelated to house placements. I would be as sure as you seem, but of the opposite: that, if houses exist at all (which is far from certain), one thing that does not work is considering the house of the transited or transiting planet as a significant characterization of the aspect.

A silly example, with full understanding that such single examples don't mean anything on their own: I'm on vacation this week away from home with my mate, whose birthday was earlier this week. Transiting Venus squared my natal Mars, which is in my 4th house. I assure you that the aspect had nothing to do with 4th house matters (unless you stretch the meaning so thin that it could cover almost any situation at all). In fact, as mentioned, we aren't even home.

Saturn and Neptune aspected a friend's 5th house Moon last year during their square. It had quite a powerful effect, but none of the effect, or circumstances surrounding, were of a 5th house nature (unless you make the meaning so wide that it would fit most such transits, e.g., say that it touched elements of personal pride and self-esteem, which we would expect from any Saturn-Neptune transit to natal Moon).

And so forth... example after example.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:41 pm

While you verge on becoming personally insulting, I'll settle for now with saying that you are making some statements that are factually incorrect. (I have the bad trait of letting people get away with insulting me more than I'd let them get away with disparaging other forum members, mostly so I feel confident I'm not abusing authority as forum admin; but my tolerance isn't unlimited.)

Do you actually think that you have more knowledge of my personal life experiences than I do (for example)?

As for your generally reasonable statement that Mercury conjunct Saturn in the 2nd house "could indicate many things" (true enough of any astrological factor), I was previously responding only to the specific things that you alleged it meant in my specific life. The specific things you mentioned were incorrect, so I should say so,.. yes?
coolcoolwcr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:29 pm
As to jim's case I think he just fails to correlate his 2nd house planets with his real life experience, due to a lack of open-minded thinking style. Mercury conjunct Saturn in 2nd house could indicate many things. Mercury Saturn people are themselves quite conservative and afraid in their thinking due to inhibition effect of Saturn. Fagan didn't condemn house system and certainly angularity can coexist with house system. 'Thingisht thought' was fagan criticizing a confused use of horary house rulership with natal astrology, not a condemnation of house system themselves.
There probably isn't anyone who knows me that would agree I am "quite conservative," although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - that you meant this in terms of specifically Mercury matters. In terms of information management and validation of claims, I'm certainly cautious and expect solid evidence. "Afraid in [my] thinking" verges on the insulting, and suggests you simply don't know me. (If anything, I'm more vulnerable to criticism of being to bold in my thinking - a common Aquarian Moon trait).
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:24 pm

Sorry for any misunderstanding caused.i have no intention to insult anyone here. A common theme I found in mercury Saturn hard aspect people is that they are very conscious of their intellectual inferiority and learn very hard, in order to prove to others their intellectual authority. They are also very sensitive to criticizing voice and wants to be complimented on their intellectual ability. Saturn is ruling boundaries of established society and mercury Saturn people do not dare to think outside of the established boundries for a fear of being ridiculed. This is my observation ,and I don't mean in anyway humiliation.

Two years ago I experienced transiting Jupiter oppose natal Venus in 8th house. At the time I joined a company with about four to five female coworkers. Suddenly I was surrounded by women in my daily environment. It made me jubilant but it also triggered some complex power struggle theme in relationship, because Venus is in 8th house ruling power struggles. In my case there was no travel theme indicated. Of course you might think me and my dad's case is not convincing because we are ordinary people and our chart data is not stored in astrodatabsnk. When I have time I might search astrodatabank to find some good examples to prove my point.

And another point I want to make is that if you want to use transit method to figure out your houses dont use square aspects. Use only conjunction and opposition because square aspects bring different themes together making it hard to tell which is which while opposing houses share a common theme(for example 3-9 is travel, learning and 2-8 is money and power)


Edited: If I really want to insult you I would say you are this or that but I didn't say that . what I said is "mercury Saturn people are afraid in thinking ..." this is a general statement aiming at nobody ,and certainly not insulting you. Why would I want to insult you when you have never said bad things to me and accepted me as forum member. I want to thank you for it, for creating a platform to let everyone discuss sidereal astrology.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:50 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:24 pm
A common theme I found in mercury Saturn hard aspect people is that they are very conscious of their intellectual inferiority
That might have been a valid assessment in 3rd grade - Mercury-Saturn's do often take a while to create the internal organizational structure for their internal data processing (what I call "setting up and populating the spreadsheet"), and I certainly was an example of that. But a year later, that has all flipped around, and I haven't needed outside validation of my intelligence for, oh, the last half century.
and learn very hard, in order to prove to others their intellectual authority.
I don't remember ever having that motive. Perhaps because I have a Virgo Sun, I adore data for its own sake and take great pleasure in learning. Sometimes that does indeed require working hard, and sometimes it doesn't but yes, sure, I've often been rightly accused, as an adult, of having done my homework on a subject.
They are also very sensitive to criticizing voice and wants to be complimented on their intellectual ability.
As I said above, I haven't needed that since at least age 10 and I'm not sure I needed it before. Sensitive to criticizing voice? Maybe; but, more so, I have a short fuse in the face of people with wrong facts and sloppy thinking. This, perhaps, seems like sensitivity to criticism to people who don't, among other things, don't understand criticism.
Saturn is ruling boundaries of established society and mercury Saturn people do not dare to think outside of the established boundries for a fear of being ridiculed.
You're kidding, right? (You must be.) Einstein didn't dare think outside established boundaries for fear of being ridiculed? Or (just to pull some names off the top of my Solar Fire chart file with this aspect strong) Kepler or Jung, or astrologer Alfred Witte or artists like George Michael or Swinburne, or (for that matter) Osama bin Ladin? It would be easier to argue the opposite description.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:01 am

I already said I am not aiming at you but mercury Saturn people in general. In you own chart Saturn is in exalted sign libra, this certainly helps alleviate many bad stuff Saturn might symbolize and make you more likely to show good side of mercury saturn aspect.

I have seen school dropout and mentally disabled people to have mercury Saturn aspect in hard aspect even in trine. Certainly even for the same aspect there are many levels of manifestations from very bad to very good, and you happen to have a good Saturn.



Edited: as for Kepler and jung and Einstein , they are not limited by Saturn but they themselves became the new Saturn -- defining new intellectual boundries for generations to come. This certainly is one of saturn's theme of defining new boundaries. Many great kings have Saturn in 10th house and they defined the boundaries of their country, in a way.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:41 am

A.very interesting note to make, as I am warned by the admin, my transiting moon is oppose natal Venus in 8th house, this transit again triggered power themes in relationship. I indeed feel I am the victim in a power abusing situation :D I don't mean it seriously.but in a fun making way.

I have noticed that transit to my 8th house Venus sometimes bring me money and presents from other people. Money I can always take but presents they gave me I usually don't like. I like A stuff but other people think B stuff is Better for me and insist on me taking it. I want to say my Venus is indeed not happy in a Pluto ruled house :cry:

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:03 am

Since you haven't shared your birth data, there is really nothing we can say about this that actually applies to your horoscope.

What I can comment on is that your entire way of thinking is repugnant to the whole body of Cyril Fagan's work. I don't mean your interest in houses - that's a valid area of inquiry. And I only somewhat mean the history of your thinking that is implied in your reference to the 8th house as a Pluto house - that one phrase compresses together several different individual concepts and interpretations that stream only out of 20th Century Tropical astrology.

The real objection is to the kind of "anything goes" interpretation that saturates your last post. I kept reading it for one - even one - concrete statement that would link Moon opposite your 8th house Venus to the experience you described, and I couldn't find it. Until now, you had been fairly crisp - 9th house for travel, for example,. But here, there was a complete break-down of any coherent correspondences, nothing that would distinguish the 8th house from two thirds (or even all) of the other houses.

It's profoundly sloppy thinking, the sort that turns astrology into a joke before any thinking person - and, if you think you've seen me serious already, I get very serious about anyone turning astrology into an objects of ridicule. Your sort of thinking and writing also makes it even harder for real investigation of houses to occur.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:27 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:03 am
Since you haven't shared your birth data, there is really nothing we can say about this that actually applies to your horoscope.
It seems he has stated his birth details here...
Just sharing for your information... :?

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:40 am

Thanks, Scales. And now I have the useful information that this is someone with Saturn conjunct my Mars (and my Mars conjunct his Saturn), so I can weigh that into the tone of my responses.

A double Aries (New Moon aspecting Mars) with Saturn setting, Neptune on WP (or square MC, if you prefer), and a very scintillatingly precise Mercury-Pluto opposition. I also see that he probably doesn't see his remarks about me to be personal since, aside from the Saturn conjunction with my Mars, his only important interchange with my chart is Venus conjunct my Moon.

Speaking of that Venus, most astrologers would regard it as 9th house - being within about 1 degree of the 9th cusp both ecliptically and mundanely. It does fall on the 8th house side, though. One placement that does seem to match his self-description quite well is Mars in the 8th closely sextile Sun and Moon in the 10th. This is, theoretically, quite consistent with someone who finds himself in repeated power struggles.

Of course, two Aries luminaries can do that on their own :)
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:00 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:40 am
Thanks, Scales. And now I have the useful information that this is someone with Saturn conjunct my Mars (and my Mars conjunct his Saturn), so I can weigh that into the tone of my responses.

A double Aries (New Moon aspecting Mars) with Saturn setting, Neptune on WP (or square MC, if you prefer), and a very scintillatingly precise Mercury-Pluto opposition. I also see that he probably doesn't see his remarks about me to be personal since, aside from the Saturn conjunction with my Mars, his only important interchange with my chart is Venus conjunct my Moon.

Speaking of that Venus, most astrologers would regard it as 9th house - being within about 1 degree of the 9th cusp both ecliptically and mundanely. It does fall on the 8th house side, though. One placement that does seem to match his self-description quite well is Mars in the 8th closely sextile Sun and Moon in the 10th. This is, theoretically, quite consistent with someone who finds himself in repeated power struggles.


Of course, two Aries luminaries can do that on their own :)

hey buddy you got my chart wrong for one hour I think. I said I was born noon, precisely noon, which means my sun and moon conjunct mid heaven for about 2 degree orb. In my chart my Venus should be in the middle of 8th house not at the latter part of it. I suggest you draw my chart again. I think you picked 'day light saving time' option on which makes chart data one hour early.

And I have to admit Saturn mars interchange in synastry to be quite unfortunate but I think you are mars the agressive one while I play saturn the authority figure to calm your hot temper down, while being attacked by you.(despite of the fact you are much older than me) . And Hey I didn't say you attack me, the universe said that.

As to the power struggle theme in my life there are many indications but you got it wrong. I can't blame you for it because you didn't even get my chart right. I have Venus 8th house trine Pluto and Pluto square des. But you are no better than me, even worse, with a Scorpio Venus square Pluto.

And.8th house is surely a power house with keywords as shared finances, business cooperation and etc. my 8th house Venus trine Pluto helps me get things from people for nothing, really nothing I don't even need to work. They gave me stuff/money just because I have a relationship with them. It also kinda attract controlling people with the hidden message that so long I am under control they provide me with things I want(or I actually don't want but they think I need) . It's kind of creepy power exchange theme but it's part of life.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:17 pm

Worse at what? I have no idea what you mean by that last statement except that, again, it is phrased as an insult. You probably want to stop talking about my chart.

The normal pattern of Mars-Saturn interchanges is that Saturn, the scythe, feels they have to try to weaken-castrate Mars who, understandably, retaliates and takes Saturn permanently down. The ball is in your court, you can decide what to do with that information next.

On April 25, 1990, Beijing was on AWDT, 9 hours ahead of Greenwich. For a noon birth (3:00 UT), you have Midheaven 20 Pisces 54, Ascendant 5 Cancer 23.

Apparently all of your conclusions about houses from your own chart are based on a flawed chart.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:20 pm

I said I was born at noon in Beijing,which means it's a Beijing noon not a British noon or American noon. Time zone wrong. I was born with sun moon conjunct mc.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:26 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:20 pm
I said I was born at noon in Beijing,which means it's a Beijing noon not a British noon or American noon. Time zone wrong. I was born with sun moon conjunct mc.
I didn't say British or American noon. I expressed the time in terms of Greenwich/UT. At noon in Beijing on your birthday, Sun is not on MC at all (I gave the correct MC - you miscalculated your birth chart).
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:29 pm

I see, your astrology software must autoclick the daylight saying time for you, try use one hour after noon to get my correct chart

When I was born my country was applying day light saving time and astrology software automatically take this into account. I thought you are a foreigner and may not know about this so I didn't say it, I was born at 13:00 with daylight saving time.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:34 pm

So you weren't born at noon? You were born at 1:00 PM? How exactly was it recorded/stated in the source document? Please confirm.

Please see this post on how to state birth data:
http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:54 pm

I was told by my mom to be born at this time. And my mom get it from her memory, she said she saw record on my birth profile at that time but my birth profile was lost.

And I said I was born at noon it was not to intentionally trick you or something, after all I didn't know at the time someone would show interest to my chart and I didn't intend to have my chart interpreted by someone in the forum. But take off daylight saving time noon was precise enough for my birthdata. and my chart has stood the test of time as I was paying attention to my own transit daily.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Danica » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:57 pm

Hi coolwcr, from the cradle of Lao Tzu and I Ching! :mrgreen: Welcome to the forum.
Might I ask, how did you find your way to Sidereal Astrology?
QUID VOLIS ILUD FAC

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:04 am

Danica wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:57 pm
Hi coolwcr, from the cradle of Lao Tzu and I Ching! :mrgreen: Welcome to the forum.
Might I ask, how did you find your way to Sidereal Astrology?
I did my own little experiment and found sidereal zodiac to be more valid than tropical one, at guest forum I left a post to explain details of my little experiment.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:46 am

There's something you might not realize... this site isn't about the sidereal zodiac. It's about the Sidereal Zodiac. The capitalization means something specific. We use the Fagan-Bradley based zodiac exclusively. There's a statement of purpose on the front page at http://solunars.org/ you may want to read. It's important to an understanding who we are and what we do here. It makes discussion easier if we're all on the same page.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:53 pm

As to jim's case I think he just fails to correlate his 2nd house planets with his real life experience, due to a lack of open-minded thinking style. Mercury conjunct Saturn in 2nd house could indicate many things. Mercury Saturn people are themselves quite conservative and afraid in their thinking due to inhibition effect of Saturn.

this is my original word now I want to analyze it a little bit, trying to find the so called 'personal insulting ' content.

First I said :

As to jim's case I think he just fails to correlate his 2nd house planets with his real life experience, due to a lack of open-minded thinking style.

Now this sentence is my opinion on why you didn't admit astrology houses exist. Do you think it's insulting because I said you lack open mindedness ? This happens to be a typical manifestation of mercury Saturn aspect. Just as someone in the forum said I as a double Aries can be domineering and angry sometimes. Hey this can indeed be a valid inteoretation and I don't consider it insulting.

Mercury Saturn people are themselves quite conservative and afraid in their thinking due to inhibition effect of Saturn.

The 2nd sentence I wasn't even talking about you. Pay attention to my subject of this sentence. If I want to insult you by saying you are afraid of thinking I would use your name as subject. But I didn't say so because I know you manifest the better side of mercury Saturn aspect. That is being analytical careful and discreet in your thinking. Now I think you kinda of have a genius in finding yourself insulted in the most unlikely words. Probably you just want to find an excuse to attack me and it is kinda smart to 'voluntarily' get insulted and start a fight.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by coolcoolwcr » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:59 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:46 am
There's something you might not realize... this site isn't about the sidereal zodiac. It's about the Sidereal Zodiac. The capitalization means something specific. We use the Fagan-Bradley based zodiac exclusively. There's a statement of purpose on the front page at http://solunars.org/ you may want to read. It's important to an understanding who we are and what we do here. It makes discussion easier if we're all on the same page.
Thank you . I always like it when people are picky about their choice of words. I use Fagan-Bradley zodiac myself and will pay more attention when I refer specifically to it in case misunderstanding is caused.

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