A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Q&A and discussion on Houses including house models and domification systems.
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Jupiter Sets at Dawn
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:16 am

People have been watching the moon transit their charts for hundreds, if not thousands, of years and yet the "which house system" question remains unanswered. House systems are a subject of great debate in most astrological forums, even this one, although we mostly debate the theory and the math, not the details. :geek:

As Jim was suggesting in answer to another post you made elsewhere, houses don't consistently hold true for most people. Sure, you can find something to fit if you work at defining what this house or that planet means loosely enough, but that's not astrology. That's a guessing game or a puzzle. There used to see more of that when astrologers talked, but now the game has moved on to "add another meaning to your pet asteroid".

I think you're going about this backwards anyway. Instead of assigning meaning to the houses and then finding a way for Planet X to mean whatever you've already decided it should mean when it's in one specific house, reverse that.

Collect 100 charts (or a thousand if you can, the more the better, use astrodatabank.com if you don't have an extensive personal collection,) and list out the ones that have Mercury in the 2nd house, for instance, and then look up the biographies and list out all the traits these people have. Start out with a big list of traits the natives actually display, and narrow it down to those they have in common with each other.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:35 pm

With all respect, these anecdotal examples aren't very good evidence of anything. For example, your dad's experience is extremely capable of such Jupiter-Venus aspects under most circumstances - every detail you gave except perhaps the travel detail is quite standard, and the travel component is hardly rare for the aspect. You've picked one detail known to you that fits a 9th house idea and amplified it, while there are probably many other details you could have mentioned that wouldn't have been 9th house themed at all. (Additionally, are you really saying that every time his Venus is transited, he travels - or something similar?)

I understand that this is persuasive to you. I don't at all share your persuasion and, in fact, could add that, over the decades of looking for evidence of house legitimacy, this is one of the first things I looked at and revisited on other occasions, and it was one of the easiest to dismiss. Transits are simply too powerful, too much a part of our astrological expression, but with outcomes routinely unrelated to house placements. I would be as sure as you seem, but of the opposite: that, if houses exist at all (which is far from certain), one thing that does not work is considering the house of the transited or transiting planet as a significant characterization of the aspect.

A silly example, with full understanding that such single examples don't mean anything on their own: I'm on vacation this week away from home with my mate, whose birthday was earlier this week. Transiting Venus squared my natal Mars, which is in my 4th house. I assure you that the aspect had nothing to do with 4th house matters (unless you stretch the meaning so thin that it could cover almost any situation at all). In fact, as mentioned, we aren't even home.

Saturn and Neptune aspected a friend's 5th house Moon last year during their square. It had quite a powerful effect, but none of the effect, or circumstances surrounding, were of a 5th house nature (unless you make the meaning so wide that it would fit most such transits, e.g., say that it touched elements of personal pride and self-esteem, which we would expect from any Saturn-Neptune transit to natal Moon).

And so forth... example after example.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:41 pm

While you verge on becoming personally insulting, I'll settle for now with saying that you are making some statements that are factually incorrect. (I have the bad trait of letting people get away with insulting me more than I'd let them get away with disparaging other forum members, mostly so I feel confident I'm not abusing authority as forum admin; but my tolerance isn't unlimited.)

Do you actually think that you have more knowledge of my personal life experiences than I do (for example)?

As for your generally reasonable statement that Mercury conjunct Saturn in the 2nd house "could indicate many things" (true enough of any astrological factor), I was previously responding only to the specific things that you alleged it meant in my specific life. The specific things you mentioned were incorrect, so I should say so,.. yes?
coolcoolwcr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:29 pm
As to jim's case I think he just fails to correlate his 2nd house planets with his real life experience, due to a lack of open-minded thinking style. Mercury conjunct Saturn in 2nd house could indicate many things. Mercury Saturn people are themselves quite conservative and afraid in their thinking due to inhibition effect of Saturn. Fagan didn't condemn house system and certainly angularity can coexist with house system. 'Thingisht thought' was fagan criticizing a confused use of horary house rulership with natal astrology, not a condemnation of house system themselves.
There probably isn't anyone who knows me that would agree I am "quite conservative," although I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - that you meant this in terms of specifically Mercury matters. In terms of information management and validation of claims, I'm certainly cautious and expect solid evidence. "Afraid in [my] thinking" verges on the insulting, and suggests you simply don't know me. (If anything, I'm more vulnerable to criticism of being to bold in my thinking - a common Aquarian Moon trait).
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:50 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:24 pm
A common theme I found in mercury Saturn hard aspect people is that they are very conscious of their intellectual inferiority
That might have been a valid assessment in 3rd grade - Mercury-Saturn's do often take a while to create the internal organizational structure for their internal data processing (what I call "setting up and populating the spreadsheet"), and I certainly was an example of that. But a year later, that has all flipped around, and I haven't needed outside validation of my intelligence for, oh, the last half century.
and learn very hard, in order to prove to others their intellectual authority.
I don't remember ever having that motive. Perhaps because I have a Virgo Sun, I adore data for its own sake and take great pleasure in learning. Sometimes that does indeed require working hard, and sometimes it doesn't but yes, sure, I've often been rightly accused, as an adult, of having done my homework on a subject.
They are also very sensitive to criticizing voice and wants to be complimented on their intellectual ability.
As I said above, I haven't needed that since at least age 10 and I'm not sure I needed it before. Sensitive to criticizing voice? Maybe; but, more so, I have a short fuse in the face of people with wrong facts and sloppy thinking. This, perhaps, seems like sensitivity to criticism to people who don't, among other things, don't understand criticism.
Saturn is ruling boundaries of established society and mercury Saturn people do not dare to think outside of the established boundries for a fear of being ridiculed.
You're kidding, right? (You must be.) Einstein didn't dare think outside established boundaries for fear of being ridiculed? Or (just to pull some names off the top of my Solar Fire chart file with this aspect strong) Kepler or Jung, or astrologer Alfred Witte or artists like George Michael or Swinburne, or (for that matter) Osama bin Ladin? It would be easier to argue the opposite description.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:03 am

Since you haven't shared your birth data, there is really nothing we can say about this that actually applies to your horoscope.

What I can comment on is that your entire way of thinking is repugnant to the whole body of Cyril Fagan's work. I don't mean your interest in houses - that's a valid area of inquiry. And I only somewhat mean the history of your thinking that is implied in your reference to the 8th house as a Pluto house - that one phrase compresses together several different individual concepts and interpretations that stream only out of 20th Century Tropical astrology.

The real objection is to the kind of "anything goes" interpretation that saturates your last post. I kept reading it for one - even one - concrete statement that would link Moon opposite your 8th house Venus to the experience you described, and I couldn't find it. Until now, you had been fairly crisp - 9th house for travel, for example,. But here, there was a complete break-down of any coherent correspondences, nothing that would distinguish the 8th house from two thirds (or even all) of the other houses.

It's profoundly sloppy thinking, the sort that turns astrology into a joke before any thinking person - and, if you think you've seen me serious already, I get very serious about anyone turning astrology into an objects of ridicule. Your sort of thinking and writing also makes it even harder for real investigation of houses to occur.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by TheScales_BothWays » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:27 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:03 am
Since you haven't shared your birth data, there is really nothing we can say about this that actually applies to your horoscope.
It seems he has stated his birth details here...
Just sharing for your information... :?

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:40 am

Thanks, Scales. And now I have the useful information that this is someone with Saturn conjunct my Mars (and my Mars conjunct his Saturn), so I can weigh that into the tone of my responses.

A double Aries (New Moon aspecting Mars) with Saturn setting, Neptune on WP (or square MC, if you prefer), and a very scintillatingly precise Mercury-Pluto opposition. I also see that he probably doesn't see his remarks about me to be personal since, aside from the Saturn conjunction with my Mars, his only important interchange with my chart is Venus conjunct my Moon.

Speaking of that Venus, most astrologers would regard it as 9th house - being within about 1 degree of the 9th cusp both ecliptically and mundanely. It does fall on the 8th house side, though. One placement that does seem to match his self-description quite well is Mars in the 8th closely sextile Sun and Moon in the 10th. This is, theoretically, quite consistent with someone who finds himself in repeated power struggles.

Of course, two Aries luminaries can do that on their own :)
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:17 pm

Worse at what? I have no idea what you mean by that last statement except that, again, it is phrased as an insult. You probably want to stop talking about my chart.

The normal pattern of Mars-Saturn interchanges is that Saturn, the scythe, feels they have to try to weaken-castrate Mars who, understandably, retaliates and takes Saturn permanently down. The ball is in your court, you can decide what to do with that information next.

On April 25, 1990, Beijing was on AWDT, 9 hours ahead of Greenwich. For a noon birth (3:00 UT), you have Midheaven 20 Pisces 54, Ascendant 5 Cancer 23.

Apparently all of your conclusions about houses from your own chart are based on a flawed chart.
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:26 pm

coolcoolwcr wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:20 pm
I said I was born at noon in Beijing,which means it's a Beijing noon not a British noon or American noon. Time zone wrong. I was born with sun moon conjunct mc.
I didn't say British or American noon. I expressed the time in terms of Greenwich/UT. At noon in Beijing on your birthday, Sun is not on MC at all (I gave the correct MC - you miscalculated your birth chart).
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:34 pm

So you weren't born at noon? You were born at 1:00 PM? How exactly was it recorded/stated in the source document? Please confirm.

Please see this post on how to state birth data:
http://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27
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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Danica » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:57 pm

Hi coolwcr, from the cradle of Lao Tzu and I Ching! :mrgreen: Welcome to the forum.
Might I ask, how did you find your way to Sidereal Astrology?
QUID VOLIS ILUD FAC

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:46 am

There's something you might not realize... this site isn't about the sidereal zodiac. It's about the Sidereal Zodiac. The capitalization means something specific. We use the Fagan-Bradley based zodiac exclusively. There's a statement of purpose on the front page at http://solunars.org/ you may want to read. It's important to an understanding who we are and what we do here. It makes discussion easier if we're all on the same page.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:56 am

That'll do.

Disagreeing with you is not picking a fight with you. It's not a license for you to behave however you choose.

Your very first post here was rude and insulting before anybody, including Jim, said a word to you. When you learned his name, you tried to pick a fight with him, and you addressed your insults to him by name.

We've tried to be understanding, but you just will not stop. We do see that in your chart, but that doesn't mean we're going to allow you smash up the furniture and pee on the floor. Your chart and your transits and the synastry are not a justification for your behavior. They are a guide for learning how to manage yourself.

This ends here. Either this is your last post on the subject of Jim and trying to blame him for your behavior, or this is your last post.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:45 am

You can read your posts yourself. You don't need me to quote what you said back to you so you can try to argue every single point and claim you meant something other than what you clearly said.

You're an adult and you're not stupid. You know how this works.

I'll be sorry to have to remove you from this forum. I'm the one who decided to whitelist your IPs so you could subscribe. But this isn't an open forum. It's private and it costs money to keep online, although members are not charged. You don't get to decide you can behave badly and make things unpleasant for everyone else.

What you do get to decide is whether you can behave here, and whether you can live within the constraints that requires. If you are willing to try, so are we. But our patience is not infinite.

I suggest you take a day before you respond. I want you to think about it and decide rather than go with your first reaction. You would be a great addition to our community, but only if you can behave.

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Re: A very easy method to determine which house system is correct

Post by Sirius Lee » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:44 am

Reading the exchanges on this thread reminded me of this Zen proverb:
Once, a long time ago, there was a wise Zen master. People from far and near would seek his counsel and ask for his wisdom. Many would come and ask him to teach them, enlighten them in the way of Zen. He seldom turned any away.

One day an important man, a man used to command and obedience came to visit the master. “I have come today to ask you to teach me about Zen. Open my mind to enlightenment.” The tone of the important man’s voice was one used to getting his own way.

The Zen master smiled and said that they should discuss the matter over a cup of tea. When the tea was served the master poured his visitor a cup. He poured and he poured and the tea rose to the rim and began to spill over the table and finally onto the robes of the wealthy man. Finally the visitor shouted, “Enough. You are spilling the tea all over. Can’t you see the cup is full?”

The master stopped pouring and smiled at his guest. “You are like this tea cup, so full that nothing more can be added. Come back to me when the cup is empty. Come back to me with an empty mind.”

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