Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Q&A and discussion on Houses including house models and domification systems.
Post Reply
Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:01 pm

Has anyone tried to apply medieval/classical methods with a sidereal zodiac?

I study classical astrology and very interested in it.

Also, I must thank mr James Eshelman for his generosity in sharing this knowledge.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:22 pm

Welcome, Rodd. Why not start off by describing one or two or three of the specific methods that interest you. That will make it easier answer whether there ha been a specific looking or investigation, or to take a look at them now.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:50 pm

Thanks Jim

One of my main concerns is that the techniques in medieval astrology depend heavily on the rulership relation. Not only sign and exaltation rulers, we often use the term rulers, which are unequal subdivisions of a sign, atributed to the five planets except luminaries.

There is a technique call 'direction by terms' which consists in moving the ascendant by oblique ascension (1° = 1 year) to the terms of the signs, first the ascending one and them the following. With an exchange of zodiacs, the terms relationship changes completely.

Also, the profection of the ascendant, a symbolic technique in which the point is progressed by the ratio of 1 sign = 1 year. The ruler of the current sign is called the ruler of the year.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:30 pm

I personally haven't looked even passingly at any of this in over 40 years. I confess that it is the sort of thing that strikes me badly as seeming too simplistic and invented by people who didn't have ready calculation tools so, once they got a natal chart in front of them, they didn't want to have to look outside it anymore than necessary :)

But that doesn't mean there's nothing to it.

If I were to look at my own chart, one positive first impression comes from considering when Cancer would profect to the Ascendant. My important Jupiter-Uranus conjunction is in Cancer, which means the sign floats up to disclose an exalted Jupiter for the year. With Virgo rising, Cancer is the 11th sign starting with Ascendant sign, it first hits in my 11th year (when I hit 10), or 1964; then at 12 year intervals, beginning with my birthday in 1976, 1988, 2000, 2012. I could make a case that each of these was a year that my Jupiter-Uranus conjunction was dominant for the year or exalted Jupiter itself, though I don't see any particular Cancer characteristics or importance I can link to the Lord of the Year, the Moon.

Against that, my current year would bring up Scorpio, in which I have Venus. I don't see that this year has any more Mars theme, or any more Venus theme (or even a debilited Venus theme) than any of the last couple of years.

Donald Trump has Gemini as Ascendant's profection. He has Mercury and Saturn in Gemini. Would you look at his last year, in which he rose to prominence against all odds and expectations, as being marked by Saturn - a really bad bit of astrological symbolism - or a dignified Mercury as Lord of the Year?

So... if you want... propose a way to concretely test this and perhaps we'll be able to pull in some folks to be involved.

As for terms, I know I haven't looked at that since the '70s and don't know where I have my Terms tables, though Solar Fire calculates them. (Of the 7 classic planets, I have five in malefic terms <g>, do you'll hver to work hard on me for that one.)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:34 pm

hahahah

I am currently figuring out on how to investigate that matter.

Medieval astrology has both simple and complicated techniques. They've got the simplistic profection, but at the same time the intrincated primary directions outside the angles (the PD of Ascendant and midheaven are easy)

I like that snapshot approach of the profection, but it must'nt be used standalone.

Let me share you a method I figured out today. I'm thinking about analising natal sidereal and tropical solar returns and give points to them if they show an event that happened in the same year. The more 'straightfowardly' it shows, the more points it gets. As, for instance, jupiter in the 5th sextile mars in the 7th for the sidereal return of the year my wife got pregnant and also gave birth to our first son. The event is so clear that it must receive 3 out of 3 points.

Otherwise, if the event is showed only indirectly (as, for instance, by rulership), it gets less points.

That's very incipient yet, but I hope soon I will figure out a clear way.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:04 pm

I remain quite skeptical. This starts crossing the line into that mode of astrology (primarily astrology that relies heavily on dispositorships) that dismisses the intrinsic natures of the planet in lieu of some mechanical role.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Surely the position of a planet in a house which has the same meaning as the event is way more important than dispositorships; however, its only by the rulerships that we can see whether the use of a sidereal sign in the same way as the medieval period is valid or not.

I've been collecting events in my life and so far, the sidereal zodiac gets more planets posited in houses that have the same meaning as the event, whereas the tropical gets the meaning of the event not solely, but mainly by dispositorships.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:48 am

Rodd wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:53 pm
Surely the position of a planet in a house which has the same meaning as the event is way more important than dispositorships
If there is any value to houses at all (which is far from established), then I agree with you on this :)
however, its only by the rulerships that we can see whether the use of a sidereal sign in the same way as the medieval period is valid or not.
One thing on which Fagan and Bradley were most settled, and with which I agree with them, is that any element of "house rulership" is unfounded and, in fact, sponsors the exact kind of thinking that poisons so much of astrology from late 20th Century onward. It's something I've been extremely careful to keep away from this forum. There are articles from Fagan on the subject that have been linked here in the past (they probably survived the move to the new forum).

Or, to put it another way, it is fundamental to Sidereal astrology (and to Fagan-inspired thinking in general) that the intrinsic nature of a planet is preserved without compromise - perhaps the single most solid foundation of Sidereal astrology. In some ways, I'd say this premise is more fundamental to Sidereal Astrology than the Sidereal zodiac. "Accidental dignities" don't change that, though Tropical astrologers use them as if it does.
I've been collecting events in my life and so far, the sidereal zodiac gets more planets posited in houses that have the same meaning as the event, whereas the tropical gets the meaning of the event not solely, but mainly by dispositorships.
That's most interesting, especially because house validity is the hardest technical problem to crack in astrology's coda. I personally think there is value to houses, though as the weakest of the primary factors, but I can't speak too loudly about that because there is still no substantial evidence of it - just single-case examples. If there is a study existing to the contrary, I haven't seen it, and it would be valuable for more substantial work to be done on the matter despite the enormous technical problems.

Siderealists interpret return charts primarily in terms of planet proximity to the angles - the nature of the planet speaking for the conditions and events of the time. Early writings by Fagan and Bradley gave more emphasis to houses, which they mostly dropped over time, though you can still see me making cautious reference on rare occasions (e.g., one of Trump's Lunar Returns in next month's forecast).

I know I'm speaking strongly on this, but I don't mean to foreclose the idea that planets in houses have meaning. (I do mean to disparage house rulership/dispositorship, and the kind of thinking that goes with it, in the strongest terms.) Your statement above basically says, "Sidereal returns have planets in the right houses, and Tropical returns don't"... right? I got really really good at "house rulership Tetris" as a Tropicalist, and, looking back, see that I was doing more astromancy than astrology, i.e., using a horoscope much as I might use Tarot cards - unconsciously knowing the answer and continuing to stare until I found the right rulerships and similar connections to justify my conclusions. (I did get into writing before 1972 that Nixon wouldn't survive his second term, though it wouldn't be because of his death; but I don't really want to take credit for that being an astrological prediction, though it came entirely from looking at his Tropical-Placidus horoscope <g>.)
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:00 pm

Hey Rodd. I screwed up and I can't fix it. While trying to reply to one of your posts, I hit the wrong button. I ended up deleting your post and there's no way to get it back. I am so sorry!

If you have the original or can recreate it, please do! It was a post you were replying to Jim's having said something about houses while discussing one of Trump's Lunar Returns in next month's forecast.

You also said in that post you didn't have Trump's chart. (I intended to point you to http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald )

Again, I'm so sorry!

Jupiter Sets at Dawn.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:37 pm

Jupe, are you able to pull this back from Google archives? (You're especially good at that.)

I hate it when I do this. Moderators and Admins have too many buttons, and I occasionally screw up even at this late date (did it accidentally to By Jove not long ago).
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:51 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:37 pm
Jupe, are you able to pull this back from Google archives? (You're especially good at that.)
It was too recent to have gotten into the google archives yet. :(
I hate it when I do this. Moderators and Admins have too many buttons, and I occasionally screw up even at this late date (did it accidentally to By Jove not long ago).
It's kind of you to say that.

Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:10 pm

To Mr Eshelman,

thanks for your reply.

I appreciate very much your rationale, though is very different of mine. I've got used to have much intelectual pleasure in finding that "the first ruler of the trip´licity of the fifth house means the children" and so on...

And currently I'm beggining to study my charts in hindsight. Though I agree that we must have mental discipline to emulate the state of mind that we would have without knowing the event. Otherwise, every bit of the chart could be promoted to an easy explanation for the event...

I had very few books on sidereal astrology (got Cyril's solunars and the Primer) compared to the fruits of medieval astrology's current revival and always wondered: if the returns' meanings are obtained by the presence of planets in the foreground of the chart, how is it possible to narrow the meaning of the events? Or the sidereal astrology only has the specificity enough to say "its a very bad/good year"?

You don't need to pinpoint the exact link of Cyril's texts on this forum, just please tell me where it is approximately and I will happily look for them.


To Jupiter

I've said that the ruler of the year is the zodiacal ruler of the profected sign of the ascendent if the sign is empty. Otherwise, the occupant is the ruler, and in case of 2 or more planets, the most dignified 'wins'.

In the case of Trump's chart, if the profected ascendant its in Gemini, with the co-presence of Saturn and Mercury, the ruler of the year is mercury by virtue of position and dignity, and that would account for the controversy he went through in this election year, as mercury is the significator of controversy according to hellenistic astrology.

Well, I've said less than that, I am just complementing my rationale. :P

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:35 pm

Rodd wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:10 pm
if the returns' meanings are obtained by the presence of planets in the foreground of the chart, how is it possible to narrow the meaning of the events?
I don't know for sure what you mean. You according to a specific area of life? I don't think astrology does that. It would leave us with the sense that one part of our life is separate from the others; my experience, though, is that as we are about one thing in our lives, we are about our whole lives. The primary indications spread through every area of life, not one fragment.
You don't need to pinpoint the exact link of Cyril's texts on this forum, just please tell me where it is approximately and I will happily look for them.
I don't know for sure that it got copied over. The one that comes to mind is his distinction between genethliacal and horary methodology through history - that is, astrology based on the fundamental nature of the planets vs. the accidental (house based) meaning some astrologers say they acquire - and the great violence done to astrology by mixing the two.

Once house dispositorships are introduced, one is no longer doing Sidereal astrology; one is doing Tropical astrology with the Sidereal zodiac.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:21 pm

Here is the Fagan content I posted in another thread. I think he's being delicate and diplomatic, but don't miss his final conclusion at the end. This text is conveniently reproduced in the third chapter of The Solunars Handbook under the heading, "Dangerous to Mix Methods."
Many seasoned astrologers, to say nothing of the tyros, find the correct delineation of a nativity, or the interpretation of a return chart, no simple task. The reason for this is that there are two distinct and separate systems of interpretation which, with the passage of time, have become intertwined and intermingled, thus causing contradiction and endless confusion. So before attempting any delineation, the astute student should first acquaint himself with the fundamental difference between these systems and their respective merits, and be able to disentangle them.

These may be termed (a) the genethliacal and (b) horary systems. In the horary system, in its original pristine form, no planet exercised any intrinsic influence. They were neither benefic nor malefic. Instead of naming them Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn, they might just as well be identified by the letters A, B, C, D, and E, respectively. Their significances were derived solely from the mundane houses over which they "ruled." Those planets that ruled the zodiacal signs on the cusps of the 1st, 5th, and 9th houses were deemed to be "benefic" regardless of the fact that these may include the natural malefics Mars and Saturn.

On the other hand, the planets that ruled the signs on the cusps of the 6th, 8th, and 12th houses were regarded as malefics irrespective of whether these included the natural benefics Venus and Jupiter. If Scorpio was on the cusp of the 5th house, then its ruler Mars became the significator of love affairs and children; if Sagittarius was on the cusp of the 12th house, then Jupiter became the significator of the native's enemies and his misfortunes, and if Capricorn was on the 9th house, Saturn became the significator of education, traveling, and voyages.

In the genethliacal system each planet has its own permanent intrinsic influence which is unique to itself, not being shared by any other member of the planetary family. Thus Venus, and Venus only, is the significator of love and all erotic impulses; Mars, and Mars only, is the significator of violence, contention, war and vulgarity; Jupiter, and Jupiter only, is the significator of freedom, nobility, honor and good repute; while Saturn, and Saturn only, is the significator of inferiority complexes, fear, hatred and maliciousness. In this system the nativity or return chart is judged and delineated solely on the relative strengths, in the mundane sphere, of those natural significators, no attention whatever being paid to the rulerships of the planets over the houses.

The student may proceed to delineate any horoscope by either of these methods separately and perhaps obtain excellent readings, free of contradiction and confusion. But should he attempt, as does the vast majority of astrologers, to interpret a horoscope or similar chart by a mixture of both methods, he cannot fail to land in a morass of muddle and incongruity. Claudius Ptolemy was obviously the first to lead the western world astray in this matter, for in his Tetrabiblos, which has been the standard authority for western astrology since the 5th century A.D., both systems are unabashedly ad indiscriminately mixed together.

It was the famous astronomer Johann Kepler who appears to have been the first to discern the admixture of these two systems in the common practice of astrology, and its baneful effect on the art of interpretation. Being a scientist and possessed of a trained and orderly mind, Kepler succeeded in tossing out and discarding the horary system as being merely sortilege. In his successful interpretation of Wallenstein's nativity, he concerned himself only with the genethliacal method. George Cecil Nixon, by the way, has ably demonstrated, in the Indian astrological press, that the same admixture of these two diverse systems permeates Hindu astrological literature to its detriment.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

Rodd
Meteorite Member
Meteorite Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:08 am

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Rodd » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:00 pm

Very interesting text

It may seem silly asking this question, but forgive me, as I'm new to the forum. How can you delineate a natal chart with no planets in the foreground? Should we use the angles of the moon or the lot of fortune?

Also, with respect to your statement
. It would leave us with the sense that one part of our life is separate from the others; my experience, though, is that as we are about one thing in our lives, we are about our whole lives. The primary indications spread through every area of life, not one fragment
I do agree the human being is a whole, not an schyzophrenic jigsaw puzzle of life areas held together, but concerning the details of the events, is it possible by sidereal astrology to specify events to the native itself or its relatives and friends? Or the philosophical framework of sidereal astrology isn't really worried about that?

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:32 pm

Rodd wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:00 pm
How can you delineate a natal chart with no planets in the foreground? Should we use the angles of the moon or the lot of fortune?
(Just to be clear, we're flipping to natals now, where the previous discussion was on return charts. The approaches are quite different.)

A lot of people have no foreground planets in the nativity. (Not a high percentage, but it amounts to a lot of people.) They still have sign placements of the luminaries (and, of course, other things) and aspects. Plenty to read.

I have a chart in front of me of a woman with no foreground planets, the closest being Moon 17° above Descendant. But the chart is fiercely dynamic aspectively. She has Libra-Pisces luminaries (in fact, a Libra stellium), Mars in Capricorn. Just counting aspects within 3° gives a Sun-Saturn conjunction square Mars, a Mercury-Neptune conjunction square Jupiter-Uranus, an acutely background Venus-Pluto square, with Venus trine the Jupiter-Uranus, and a Moon-Mars sextile. There's four or five times as much to read from just that in order to tell what kind of person she is, how her psyche works, how she addresses life.
. It would leave us with the sense that one part of our life is separate from the others; my experience, though, is that as we are about one thing in our lives, we are about our whole lives. The primary indications spread through every area of life, not one fragment
I do agree the human being is a whole, not an schyzophrenic jigsaw puzzle of life areas held together, but concerning the details of the events, is it possible by sidereal astrology to specify events to the native itself or its relatives and friends? Or the philosophical framework of sidereal astrology isn't really worried about that?
I don't thing anything in the horoscope applies to anyone but the individual. (You can see that individual's relationship toward a mate, psychological patterns concerning a mate, etc., but not the mate himself or herself.)

This point of view is hardly unique to Sidereal astrology. The best Tropical astrologers I've ever known also have tended to see things the same way.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7216
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:50 pm

A couple of posts that might be of interest to you.

Here is one on general strategy of reading a natal chart:
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19

Here are some interpretation references you can download:
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1403

Here is an example of a chart I interpreted blind, with feedback from the person and different views on whether I was exactly right or as wrong as can be - draw your own conclusions :)
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=413
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2403
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Using sidereal zodiac in medieval/classic techniques

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:40 pm

There's an interpretation of a solar return chart offering a pretty good forecast available on another site. It's not Jim's. It's Ken Bowser's forecast for Donald Trump made a year ago the beginning of May.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests