My House Model: An Overview

Q&A and discussion on Houses including house models and domification systems.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:33 am

I recently spent some time trying to pin down the articulation of these two (theoretical) daily rhythms. I haven't stated them as fully as I'd like above. There is also the fact that, with two distinctive rhythms going (one based on Asc-Dsc, and the other on MC-IC), each angular-cadent pair seems to "drop out" of the cycle it's in the middle of; so I've developed that a bit more.

For the cycle related to the Horizon (swinging between maximum selfness at Asc and maximum othersness at Dsc):

1st - Peaking of selfness. Self-presentation.

12th - Plunged into hemicycle that gradually attunes to Others. Initial resistance creates self vs. selfless crisis. Forced toward self-sacrifice (against all habituation). Disidentification = unconsciousness, etc. "Unknown others."

11th - Free, spontaneous surge or flow toward othersness, still habituated to self-orientation; thus, the individual within the context of others.

10th - Midpoint of the hemicycle of othersness, fair integration into Others / public concept; therefore, full incorporation of the other (culminating) themes with public, outer, others.

9th - Other house themes exist in the context of community. (Much more community integration and surrender of self to community than 11th.)

8th - Approaching maximum Others peak. 8th represents proxy-others (things akin to and nearly equated to specific others). Other house themes exist in the context of others.

7th - Peaking of othersness. "Known others."

6th - Plunged into hemicycle that gradually attunes to Self. Initial resistance to selfness creates others vs. self crisis. Forced toward self-reliance, self-orientation (against all habituation).

5th - Free, spontaneous surge or flow toward selfness, still habituated to others-orientation. Vital self-expression.

4th - Midpoint of the hemicycle of selfness, fair integration into self / privacy / personal concept; therefore, full incorporation of the other (interiorization) themes with this.

3rd - Psychological resources basic to pending self-injection into the world, arising from the first tentative explorations of one's physical & psychological environment.

2nd - Approaching maximum Self peak. 2nd represents proxy-selves (things akin to and nearly equated with ourselves); and, especially, powerful energies pushing out from us into the world as our competitive self-injection into the world.

1st - Peaking of selfness. Self-presentation.


For the cycle related to the Meridian (swinging between maximum inner, private, intimate themes at IC and maximum outer, public themes at MC):

4th - Peaking of in-turning: inner, private, intimate.

3rd - Plunged into hemicycle reaching Outward. Initial resistance keeps attention within initially narrow field, managing phenomena still "close to home."

2nd - Free, spontaneous surge or flow toward public/outer, streaming out into the world, still habituated to inner/private "mine").

1st - Midpoint of the hemicycle of exteriorization. Self (as maximized at Asc) exists to be externalized: self-expression or (perhaps better) self-presentation.

12th - First participation in the collective/outer, in the larger world outside oneself and one's immediate domain.

11th - Approaching maximum peak Outward expression. Aspiration, swelling energies pushing toward culmination.

10th - Peaking of Outer or Public. Culmination, maximum exteriorization.

9th - Plunged into hemicycle reaching Inward. Crisis of Outer-focus or public vs. Inner-focus or private. Initial resistance keeps attention anchored in public/outer contexts for the inner reach.

8th - Free, spontaneous surge or flow toward inner/private, stirring ones inner world while still habituated to outer/public.

7th - Midpoint of the hemicycle of interiorization. Othersness (as maximized at Dsc) is intended to be intimate, private, more deeply personal.

6th - First withdrawal from the public/collective, into the private, more contained world within oneself and in one's immediate domain. [This one needs work.]

5th - Approaching maximum peak Inward expression. Powerful energies surge toward one's private, intimate, inner expression. [I need to tweak this better to represent the "build-up" into the 4th.]

4th - Peaking of in-turning: inner, private, intimate.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Now... how easily and obviously to these combine into obvious expressions of something resembling traditional meanings?

3rd HOUSE
Process of shifting from the most private, contained parts of one's psyche and environment, toward an impulse to inject oneself into the world. Curiosity & 'inquiry for these explorations. Attention is kept "close to home," parochial. Reflects one's relationship to the basic pattern of one's mind.

2nd HOUSE
Process of surging oneself competitively and effectively into the world (the battle of life). Attachment to, or near-Identification of oneself with, property, wealth, and other resources ("proxy selves").

1st HOUSE
One's self-presentation: the version of ourselves we externalize or present to the world. Process of focusing attention on oneself. Life.

12th HOUSE
Process of surrendering distinctive selfhood or self-identifications to the collective. Voluntary or involuntary selflessness, self-sacrifice, or self-surrender. Subconscious (disidentified) aspects of oneself and one's psyche. Blind spots from what is consciously unknown. Relationship to unknown aspects of others. Solitude, withdrawal.

11th HOUSE
Relationships with groups, colleagues, and other (non-intimate) friends, Standing as an individual in relationship to the collective. Spontaneous surging or flowing of energy into such relationships. Aspiration, hopes, wishes, dreams, patronage, and lending them emotional force.

10th HOUSE
Culmination, attainment, worldly esteem, all ideas of heights and elevation, all aspects of one's "public life." Identity (one's driving mission) as manifest in the world. Broadly, the principle of maximum exteriorization of one's energies, unfolding from deep within. Early relationship with or attitudes concerning one parent. Other hierarchical relationships.

9th HOUSE
Inner exploration, especially within the framework of community and culturally established institutions (religion, law, higher education, etc.). Tensions between the pull of outer, public values and inner, private values (e.g., integrity conflicts).

8th HOUSE
Powerful surge or flow of energy toward the inner or private spaces (depths of the psyche), stirring one's inner world. These stirrings occur in the context of others, especially close (intimate) others. The stirred content commonly appears as projection material, as the house is strongly connected to "proxy others,"
8th represents proxy-others (things akin to and nearly equated to specific others). Other themes exist in the context of "proxy others," i.e., property, traits, or other resources of other people. Existential confrontation.

7th HOUSE
Process of focusing attention on others, especially close, known, more deeply personal others (whether friend or foe). "Equal opposites." Death.

6th HOUSE
Process of developing self-reliance and self-sufficiency, primarily through work. This need arises from tending to value others and their needs ahead of one's own and other forms of tension between Others and Self. The common ground of these seeming opposites is in service; failure in the balance especially impacts health adversely.

5th HOUSE
Free, spontaneous surging of self-expression and emotional vitality in diverse, energetic forms, including creativity (including procreativity), drama, sex and romance, and play and other recreation. Primarily shared activities, not solitary.

4th HOUSE
Depths, privacy, intimacy, interiorization. Relation to formative environment, early psychological patterning, parents (initially both), and "roots" (in the widest sense), including patterning for laterforgin one's own home or sanctuary.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:27 pm

It occurred to me on the way home today... new words... that while the hemicycles to MC and IC are, respectively, externalizing and internalizing (moving outward / moving inward), the hemicycles moving toward Asc and Dsc - which I have characterized as moving toward fullest identification with self and other, respectively - are moves toward emerging and submerging.

This probbly needs more explanation, but I understand it and am mostly posting this as a note to myself.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by mikestar13 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:40 am

I have a strong intuition you are on the right track with this model. Similar to Rob Hand in Horoscope Symbols, but better worked out and more coherent when you are through. IMHO, Angularity > Aspects/Midpoints > Signs > Houses, but houses are worth interpreting in a nativity, I wouldn't use them for much else.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:03 am

Mike wrote:
…but houses are worth interpreting in a nativity, I wouldn't use them for much else.
Yes, I agree Mike. I think by the time we reach our first Saturn Return (30 years), natal house symbolism starts appearing with much more clarity. There are so many different keywords for each house it takes maturing into later life to narrowly define each house symbolism for an individual life; otherwise, it’s a crap shoot to narrowly delineate accurately house symbolism for someone else. It takes our own individual personal life to see the richness of accurate natal house symbolism—house things that are very close to our inner beings.
FWIW, after looking back on 70 years of my life, IMO, the Vertex in a particular natal house keys/focuses the house symbolism with a strong ‘fated’ feel, particular when planet symbolism is in the same house as the vertex. In other words, since the vertex is not a planet, it focuses richer/wider symbolism for a natal house meaning. Or, pay closer attention to vertex house symbolism and aspects to the vertex to narrowly define the vertex house symbolism.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:17 am

Continuing in my fickle agnosticism on houses...

1. House in Solunars. If houses are a valid as they sometimes teasingly appear to be, then they are probably equally so in return charts. While Bradley's original S&LR interpretations can be seen as a naiveté of youth, they often are teasingly seductive. He and Fagan were both sold on the idea at the beginning (or were just following the flow of their early training).

One recent minor test, interesting to me, was with Donald Trump's March 23 Demi-SLR. wrote:
With so little happening in the chart, we might note more obscure and uncertain factors as an experiment. If houses are relevant in these charts, an 8th House Sun partile square a 5th House Mars (as Uranus transits his Venus in the background) might propel additional sex scandals to the forefront during this fortnight. That is, he may have more Stormy weather. Of course, if houses (as seems, more often than not, to be the case) are of no value, then these themes will not be prominent.
The evening this chart set up, playmate Karen McDougal emerged on the scene, the one woman / one event that has literally been "more Stormy weather." Maybe I was just lucky, but it was quite precise in timing, nature of event, and even details.

2. ...by your Saturn Return. This is an intriguing idea, Steve. It was quite easy for me to dismiss houses in my first decade or two in astrology because my own fit so poorly. However, looking back at my life now, they are pretty much right on target. This is... something to think about. It does fit right in with how I have come to think about where house ideas fit within us - different from signs or aspects. I've started thinking of house placements as not necessarily what's so about us, but the story we weave about it. (It can't be true that we are innately different in one area of life than another, but we can fictionalize that this is so and then organize our life that way.) Everyone has such a story as the lens through which they look at the world, but it often takes some maturity to gel it into place. For example, the 1st house (necessarily including the non-foreground majority of it) then is not so much how we fundamentally are but rather the character we routinely play. (I'm not fundamentally a solar and, especially, Neptunian person; but with Sun and Neptune in the 1st house, these weave an image of a particular kind of character I've inadvertently seemed to others most of my life). And so forth.

3. Saturn. While my primary focus has been on luminary and stellium house occupancy to look for persistent themes, I've lately been drawn to look at someone's Saturn house first, and been surprised at how simply dead-on this has been, consistent with the story approach. Think of the Saturn house (for this experiment) as (a) where you have been blocked or held back all of your life, but especially (b) where you unconsciously take for granted that you are and will be blocked, held back - whether that's objectively true or (even if objectively true) whether it is necessarily true. So many people lately have described themselves to me in these terms without having knowledge of their charts from which to derive this. It's your story about that part of your life.

So, one woman I know (the one who caused me first to think about this) has Saturn in the 8th. Despite having a chart that bristles and burns with sexual intensity as its main themes and other factors that would lead one to believe relationships are important, she has one crisis after another dealing with shared resources, usually from disintegrating relationships, and has in her head that she is never going to "get her sexual life together the way she wants it." She's obsessive about savings and investment, and almost every unresolved issue she has in her life (much of which deals with her picture, i.e., story about herself) is an 8th house theme. Another friend with Saturn in the "bleed zone" between 11th and 10th (in the 10th, conjunct 11th cusp) often repeats the "truth" about himself that he's always had to work to help other people get their dreams and everyone has always said no to what he needs to follow his own dreams (with a subplot that this also has been a career block). With my Saturn in 2nd, I so take for granted that I'll "never have my money act together" that I don't even try anymore, and have long been committed to just survive the issue by optimizing the likelihood that I can work and draw a paycheck uninterruptedly the rest of my life. Mike, much that you have said about relationship in your life makes me wonder if Saturn in the 7th is alerting us to this Saturn story in your own framing and thinking about your life? Etc.

4. So many things. Steve, yes, it does seem like when we try to list everything about a given house there are so many things that it is hard to stay ahead of it. This has been enhanced by houses (in their vagueness) being the obvious and favorite tool for Tropicalists (who for centuries had the wrong zodiac and misguidance on aspects) and psychic astrologers (who just need a hint from the chart to let their psychism do the rest) - this has developed to be highly elastic.

But a primary purpose of the model presented above is to suggest an underlying pattern that reduces each house to fundamental themes. In all other astrological factors (Mars for energy, Neptune for reality reorganization, Uranus for "gotta be free," etc.), there are millions of possible details and outcomes in our actual lives that arise from singular, simple principles. So with houses: The model above shows that all house meanings arise from one or two specific things that can be said about the house. If you know these one or two things (from the model), and then two or three most important traditional catch phrases, you'll have it.

For example, Steve, let's take the 11th house that is so important in your chart. You have three planets solidly in the 11th house, and Sun closely conjunct the 11th cusp (close enough that I consider it a 10th/11th blend leaning more heavily to 11th). So Sun and three more planets in the 11th. What's that house about, according to the model? Well, traditionally the 11th house has two main themes: (a) friends and (b) hopes & wishes. The model grabs these exactly: First, the 11th house is the easy, enthusiastic flow toward others in general, after the planet maximizes self-identification in the 1st and then has to do a whiplash about-face toward selflessness and othersness in the 12th - in the 11th, the original "others" orientation surges, freely and enthusiastically. Second, the 11th is the next best approximation of the 10th, the aspiration ("hopes & wishes") that precedes and heads toward attainment. -- Do these two themes significantly dominate your experience of your life? Do you see how knowing these two basic facts about the 11th also generates all the secondary themes that have been listed across the centuries (from patronage to group affiliation)?
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by mikestar13 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:28 am

I also like that this model is entirely divorced from sign/house correspondences, which can tempt one into all sorts of errors. After studying the question, the ASC= Libra scheme popular among siderealists who use houses is better than ASC=Aries nearly universal among tropicalists, but neither quite hits the mark. IMHO, Jim's clockwise model seems to.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:36 am

mikestar13 wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:28 am
I also like that this model is entirely divorced from sign/house correspondences, which can tempt one into all sorts of errors. After studying the question, the ASC= Libra scheme popular among siderealists who use houses is better than ASC=Aries nearly universal among tropicalists, but neither quite hits the mark. IMHO, Jim's clockwise model seems to.
Thanks for noticing. Yes, I agree that the Libra-1st works better and has weaknesses. One of the realizations that led to this model was recognizing that if there is inherent sequentiality in the flow (as logic seems to demand), then one could not perfectly analogize an inherently clockwise sequence (houses) with an inherently counter-clockwise sequence (signs). They are inately incompatible.

One can still tap them more loosely. I understand 2nd so much better thinking of it as Scorpio, not because planets there act like the same planets in Scorpio, but because Mars describes the nature of moveable wealth (money) and the psychological principles behind most 2nd house matters (competition, acquisition, preparing to conquer the world). But that's mostly an afterthought that I test against the model.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by mikestar13 » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:50 am

I just had an a-ha moment reading Jim's next-to-last post. Saturn seventh as story explains my relationship history, and also why this Pisces/Aries has always felt more Saturnine in general than angularity and aspects alone explain--and particularly so in one-on-one relationships. Not always in a negative sense.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Avshalom Binyamin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:59 pm

Yes, that was a hit for me. My Saturn is in the 9th house, and a recurring life theme for me has been leaving family and religion over what I would call conflicts of integrity.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:30 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:17 am
Think of the Saturn house (for this experiment) as (a) where you have been blocked or held back all of your life,
So relocation... the blocking would occur in both the natal house position and the relocated house position?
I have Saturn in the first house (Campanus) in the natal location, and in the second in the relocated chart. Both seem to fit but it's not a big effect, and I think there are other explanations for each.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:46 am

Avshalom wrote:
Yes, that was a hit for me. My Saturn is in the 9th house, and a recurring life theme for me has been leaving family and religion over what I would call conflicts of integrity.
Bingo for me too Avshalom! My Saturn cnj Pluto in my 9th house. I left my father for one of the main reasons being he was a religious fundamentalist constantly making me out as a devil for me studying astrology as a ‘higher form of philosophical/psychological learning’ for myself. I ran into a-lot of religious bigotry in my life which inhibited (Saturn) me in many ways. At one time in my life I had to wage a full-scale war against Religious Bigotry other than my father. Once a very wise lawyer told me you can never prove Religious Bigotry in a court room. But, I eventually won this war in a Stockholder Board room with the aid of this wise lawyer. I think Jim is onto a very important astrological detail about Saturn in our different Houses, and the younger you are and learn Jim’s observation about Saturn in your Houses, the sooner/better you will become psychologically managing your life pertaining to the malefic aspects of Saturn.

Houses are the ‘Stage/Set’ directors which sets our various life ‘Stages’ and the planets in the houses are the Directors of our psychological experiences with the different ‘Stages’ in our life.
All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, and one man/woman in their time plays many parts… Shakespeare.
I have more to address later with Jim’s observations about my Stellium in my 11th House.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:31 am

Jim wrote:
For example, Steve, let's take the 11th house that is so important in your chart. You have three planets solidly in the 11th house, and Sun closely conjunct the 11th cusp (close enough that I consider it a 10th/11th blend leaning more heavily to 11th). So Sun and three more planets in the 11th. What's that house about, according to the model? Well, traditionally the 11th house has two main themes: (a) friends and (b) hopes & wishes. The model grabs these exactly: First, the 11th house is the easy, enthusiastic flow toward others in general, after the planet maximizes self-identification in the 1st and then has to do a whiplash about-face toward selflessness and othersness in the 12th - in the 11th, the original "others" orientation surges, freely and enthusiastically. Second, the 11th is the next best approximation of the 10th, the aspiration ("hopes & wishes") that precedes and heads toward attainment. -- Do these two themes significantly dominate your experience of your life? Do you see how knowing these two basic facts about the 11th also generates all the secondary themes that have been listed across the centuries (from patronage to group affiliation)?
Without a doubt my 11th house Stellium has focused a-lot of my life toward “Friends, Companions, Hopes & Wishes’, with solid astrological truth about 11th House symbolism-manifestations. I should also include business associates (colleagues) who became friends. This business associate probably stems from my Sun ‘bleeding’ from the 10th to 11th, with my natal 10th house Sun pertaining to a-lot of business activity in my life, with these business colleagues bleeding over to ‘friends-companions’ in the 11th house. Now that I am retired, this forum has become a very strong 11th house entity into my life with all the forum ‘companions’ over the last 10 years. I think we need to include 11th house to clubs-forums-etc. Also, with all this 11th House Stellium being in the sign Virgo, a-lot of my friends (colleagues) were Virgo’s. These Virgo’s were critical in my life for instructing me in certain details which allowed me to achieve my “hopes & wishes.’ My number 1 hope/wish was to one day free myself from working with a Theater Company and owning my own Theater, and a Virgo lawyer in Alabama was instrumental in helping me achieve this through a bankruptcy court. Neptune in my 11th House cnj Mercury consumed my mental life working in the Theater business since I was 6 years old. I learned all the details about the Theater business which allowed me to own and successfully operate my own Theater. My main job as a mature business person was buying-contracting movies which were Neptunian Illusions. Once my career was interrupted with a successful venture into commodity speculation which I think is ruled by the illusions of Neptune. I spent 12 years studying Tropical Astrology with much dissatisfaction, and then I read Jim’s book ‘Interpreting Solar Returns’ and converted solely to Sidereal Astrology. Jim (another 11th house companion Virgo) taught me many important astrological details which allowed me (Virgo) to correlate truths about astrology. Tropical Astrology was too vague for me to see the astrological truths I wanted to learn, but I will say after putting some years behind me, I see astrological truths with Houses (Natal) which are not a mainstay in the field of Sidereal Astrology, but these House truths can only be learned/seen after you put mature years behind you and then reflecting back on the past of your life ‘Stages.’ continued to next post...

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 am

continued from previous post.

There is another branch of Natal House teachings which may warrant a deeper study by the individua sidereal astrologer, but I am agnostic, it can become too vague and can only be seen as a possible astrological truth by personal mature reflections with one’s own individual life with their Natal Houses. This has to do with ‘derived’ houses. A derivative house system uses the basic symbolism/meaning of each of the houses, then applying them in relationship to each of the other houses through a numerology system of 1-12 (houses), a definite Tropical system-----but maybe?
I will give a glaring example with my 11th House by asking myself the ‘derivative’ house question: How will I gain money/profit from my 10th House Career? Since this is a money question ruled by 2nd House, we take the number 2 and add 2 to the 10TH House beginning the count of number 1 with the 10th cusp--- adding 2 which gives us the 11th House. In other words, in a derivative house system—the 11th house could help the native see how they could earn a living, because in a derivative house system the 11th house is the 2nd from the 10th which is the income merited from your Career (10th House). But there is one big catch! If there are no planets in the 11th House, the 11th house will probably be a dumb note for the native in answering the BIG question: Best way to earn an income? But in my case this derivative house system rings loud and clear with me earning an income with Neptune (Theaters) tightly cnj Mercury in the 11th house. Also, in my life, I became a sole Theater owner through obtaining a closed down old Theater through the bankruptcy courts and believe me—Neptune has much to do with any kind of bankruptcy, particularly if you don’t have a specialized bankrupt attorney guiding you through a particular bankruptcy. In other words, if you are going to ever acquire any material possessions through a bankruptcy—make sure you are dealing with the attorney who filed the bankruptcy. A bankrupt attorney will always know who the bankrupt Judge will be presiding over the bankruptcy. There is another planet in my 11th House and it is the benefic Venus. Venus is our number one planet for ‘socializing,’ and most of my success in the Theater business came from a tremendous amount of socializing with the Branch Managers of all the film (movie) companies. I had a major problem booking movies, and that was the fact I was always competing against the BIG Theater companies. I had to get the branch managers to like me as the little guy—I was always taking them out to lunch or cocktails. This Venus in my 11th is how many of the Branch Managers of the Film Companies became a friend-companion-colleague even after I retired from the Theater business. Here is something written by Alphee Lavoie pertaining to derivative 11th House:
THE 11TH HOUSE—The 11th house shows the ability to receive and be completely open to new situations. It is the house of socializing and when you socialize you meet all kinds of different people (like on this forum). Here you learn how close you want to be to others. Every friendship and acquaintance is different. You may have a different level of closeness with each one depending on how much you share and how much you are willing to open up. It is through the 11th house that you learn to deal with all kinds of people without feeling you have to be totally committed. If a relationship or friendship compels you to be totally committed, then it becomes a 7th house energy. Some people join clubs because the members of that club can do something to help their career or status. So, rubbing shoulders with the proper people can make you feel important.
My 11th house Stellium was critical for my business success in life, but you see, the career (10th House) success came to me because I was compelled by a tremendous amount of planetary energy in my 11th House to be as ‘social’ as possible. Even before I got into astrology, I basically told all the Branch Managers of the Film Companies I wanted to socialize with them as much as possible in order to learn as much as possible about doing good business with them & their Companies. Understand as much as you can astrologically about your Natal 11TH House—take from someone born with an 11th House Stellium—the 11th House is a very important House, and if it is populated with planet(s), get to understand/know the symbolism of that planet.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:23 am

Interesting and thought provoking Steve. You are defenitely on to something here with the houses. I am having quite a few a-ha moments. For example:

Yesterday my colleague, a Scorpio-Taurus said to me Flo, I don't get it why people join clubs, what's the purpose. Having a few friends is enough, I would never join a club.
When I looked at her chart she has Saturn in the 11th house.

Someone I know, a double Aquarius joined the Freemasonry some time ago. He has a new girlfriend who eventually said that he needed to make a choice, either give up the Freemasonry membership or else she would leave. Neither did his first wife approve of his spiritual aspirations. His luminaries are in the 1st house. Saturn in the 12th house.

My friend, A Libra-Aries (Oct 18 1959, 10.20PM, Zaandam, Netherlands) has a Libra Stellium in the 5th house. She always has a free, spontaneous surging of self-expression, is very energetic and her activities are always shared, never solitary. Even when she has free time, it is shared. She is a senior purser in the airline. She is never completely self reliant through work, always a bit insecure as she values others and their needs ahead of one's own which gives her tension and stress. Her Saturn is in the 6th house.

I will come up with more examples.

Regards,
Flo
Last edited by FlorencedeZ. on Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:40 am

My experience is that derived houses have no significance above chance.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:55 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 am
There is another branch of Natal House teachings which may warrant a deeper study by the individua sidereal astrologer, but I am agnostic, it can become too vague and can only be seen as a possible astrological truth by personal mature reflections with one’s own individual life with their Natal Houses. This has to do with ‘derived’ houses.
Fagin had a word for this stuff.
Horary.
I've never seen it work other than as a means of focus in the hands of an intuitive, and there are better means of setting and keeping focus.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:18 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:13 am
There is another branch of Natal House teachings which may warrant a deeper study by the individua sidereal astrologer, but I am agnostic, it can become too vague and can only be seen as a possible astrological truth by personal mature reflections with one’s own individual life with their Natal Houses. This has to do with ‘derived’ houses. A derivative house system uses the basic symbolism/meaning of each of the houses, then applying them in relationship to each of the other houses through a numerology system of 1-12 (houses), a definite Tropical system-----but maybe?
I would take a very strong stand against 'derived houses" (except, perhaps. in the "7th from..." sense that here are inherent polarities in opposing houses. - It's just too much "spin the bottle" and "pin the tail on the donkey."

They are of enormous potential value in horary astrology, where they are most natural - provided horary is being practiced as astromancy (psychic divination using a horoscope diagram for focus) rather than astrology.
In other words, in a derivative house system—the 11th house could help the native see how they could earn a living, because in a derivative house system the 11th house is the 2nd from the 10th which is the income merited from your Career (10th House).
That, though, is the general expectation (not saying it's true, just that it's the general expectation) of the 2nd house - a trinal relationship of 2nd / 6th / 10th showing a juggling act between income, work, and calling.
But there is one big catch! If there are no planets in the 11th House, the 11th house will probably be a dumb note for the native in answering the BIG question: Best way to earn an income?
Excellent! You've put your finger on exactly what I think is a big trap in houses. If one uses them to say, "For this XYZ area of life, House ABC is where I need to look for all my answers," then you're going to often find that it doesn't have much to say unless you make up lot of new rules so you can "always find something."

But is this how anything else in astrology works? Of course not. If you say, "I am aggressive and combative, so I must find that explained in Aries or Scorpio," you often will fail. Everyone is aggressive and combative to some extent, and everyone has other things in their chart that show this - plus the underlying character itself. Don't drop into the house trap of thinking life is compartmentalized.

If you use houses as, "To know what I want to know, I have to find something in House X," you'll be disappointed most of the time. (It is also a point of view more like fortune telling: "Oh great swami, tell me about my cousin's new boyfriend.") On the other hand, if you use houses as, "I have Plant A in House B; what does this tell me about myself?" then you are using them like everything else we know works well in astrology.

Empty houses are like dormant ingresses: They just have nothing to say, and there's nothing wrong with the having nothing to say.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:05 am

Jim wrote:
Empty houses are like dormant ingresses: They just have nothing to say, and there's nothing wrong with the having nothing to say.
Exactly Jim!
My conclusion with Natal Houses: They have something to say with primary house meanings when they are populated with planets, but it will probably take at least one Saturn Return for the Sidereal Astrologer to see precisely how house meanings are manifesting in one’s life, maybe two Saturn Returns. I have given-up long ago trying to get House meanings work as well as Bradley seemed to think in his early usage with Sidereal Return Charts. With my 11th house Stellium, I am very partial to the 11th house having something to say about earning income, but only when planets populate the 11 house. The only thing in astrology I have seen that offers some kind explanation WHY the 11th house may have something to do with HOW one earns an income is with the derivative house system, but outside of this populated 11th house derivative system with earning income, I think the derivative house system is a mostly a Tropical claptrap.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:14 am

First (probably insufficient) theory: The 11th is the aspiration toward the 10th house attainment, what is usually summarized as "hopes and wishes." If there is something about you that centers "hopes and wishes" on income, then it would be income related.

But that's not what the planets in the 11th would say. What they do provide, it seems to me, is a capturing of your childhood fantasies and desires about the movies, which were very deep in you! Sun joining Mercury, Venus, and Neptune in the 11th (with a Mercury-Neptune conjunction) seems quite reflective. In reading this, I would be more inclined to think it shows aspirations, hopes, dreams of the Mercury-Venus-Neptune world, than that it shows income as such.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:21 am

Income never mattered that much to me, other than not starving to death. :) The Theater business was a pure passion for me and my main 'hope/wish' was to free myself from other authority figures. But I understand where you are coming from Jim about the 11th. I would have been much better off if I was only taught Sidereal Astrology from the beginning and never heard of Tropical Astrology--which mainly confuses me.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:45 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:18 am
I would take a very strong stand against 'derived houses" ... It's just too much "spin the bottle" and "pin the tail on the donkey."

They are of enormous potential value in horary astrology, where they are most natural - provided horary is being practiced as astromancy (psychic divination using a horoscope diagram for focus) rather than astrology.
Fagan pointed out that horary astrology came after genethliacal, and were originally practiced separately, then later mixed together, with horary rules being applied illegitimately to genethliacal. Derived houses were, as Mr. E. has stated a horary technique.

I'm interested in concepts that attempt to model astrology onto human speech. I could say a lot about this (such as: the modeling is being done on ancient Greek and on Indo-European languages generally, but what about the other language families?). But still, in this particular instance derived houses can be understood as modeling the genitive (possessive) case. (As far as I know, I'm the only person who has explicitly stated it this way, though the clues and instructions make it obvious.) For example, if the First House is self, the Second income, the Third siblings, etc., then in the scheme of derived houses the First house becomes "my own self," the Second "my income," the Third "my siblings."

The Fourth house of mother, becomes 4th from the First, "my mother." The Fifth can become the 2nd from the 4th from the First: "my mother's income" (among many other derived meanings counting from the other houses). And so on.

I'm not advocating that this is true, certainly not in natal interpretation. But if one were to try it on for size, I suggest that this idea offers a systematic approach to derived houses: if planets are understood as the verb part of speech, then derived houses are the genitive case. This imposes some order onto what has been chaotic. Is there any work that systematically lays out all the possibilities as explicitly derived house meanings in tabular form? I don't think so; they have all gotten jumbled up, as in Medieval and Vedic works.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by SteveS » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:01 am

Derek wrote:
This imposes some order onto what has been chaotic. Is there any work that systematically lays out all the possibilities as explicitly derived house meanings in tabular form? I don't think so; they have all gotten jumbled up, as in Medieval and Vedic works.
Yes, obvious they have gotten ‘jumbled up.’ I still see glimpses of astrological truths with a few derived house meanings but too whacked-up to apply on a consistent basis. Personally, I relate better to Vedic keywords to the 12 Natal Houses than Western keywords, although most are the same. Vedic relates one’s income to the 11th House and this is a big bingo for me with my Natal 11th House Stellium. Vedic relates the biological father to the 9th house and this is also a big bingo for me with me completely separating/revolting myself from my father, with a Saturn cnj Pluto in my natal 9th house. We have discussed Freya’s sister screwing up her life and she has Mars-Saturn in her 3rd House of ‘Brother’s & Sisters’. My wife’s Sister has inhibited her life big time and Saturn is in her 3rd house.

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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun May 06, 2018 1:03 pm

I Just realized (wondering why it tool me so long) that one common denominator of all those types of relationships traditionally ascribed to the 7th house is that they are all (at least in potential, and at their best) of the nature of I-Thou relationships, as articulated by Martin Buber and cited so effectively in Garth Allen's "Kid Gloves" article on Pluto,

Given the historic equation of Aries to the 7th house, this is quite phenomenal!

Whether referring to one's mate, other true intimates, primary foes, etc., these have the particular kind of "pretense is stripped away" intimacy of I-Thou. The same is true of therapists and other counsellors, at least in the best situations. Of course, there are more circumferential relationships historically grouped here, too, e.g., anyone against whom one is opposed in a lawsuit. In general, though, I think this gives a new way to talk about the distinction of 7th house connections from, say, the "ordinary friends and contacts" attributed to the 11th house, playmates from the 5th, etc.

Tis also explains (as nothing else previously has) Manilius' equation of the Descendant with religious worship. It isn't in public festivities (e.g.) that this applies, but in the intimacy of prayer and other direct worship. The ultimate I-Thou relationship is with one's god.

This is... rather intriguing to me.
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Re: My House Model: An Overview

Post by mikestar13 » Sun May 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:03 pm
I Just realized (wondering why it tool me so long) that one common denominator of all those types of relationships traditionally ascribed to the 7th house is that they are all (at least in potential, and at their best) of the nature of I-Thou relationships, as articulated by Martin Buber and cited so effectively in Garth Allen's "Kid Gloves" article on Pluto,

Given the historic equation of Aries to the 7th house, this is quite phenomenal!...

One and probably the only thing I understood before you, Jim. I understood it in the very moment I read the words in Kid Gloves. But I had read a bit about I-Thou before I read Kid Gloves. Including God the eternal Thou who can never become It.
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