Johnny Cash

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Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:02 pm

Until this week, I didn't know that we had a birthtime for Johnny Cash. He was born February 26, 1932 in Kingsland, AR. According to his mother, he was born at 7:30 AM.

I think the birth time is correct, or nearly so. Run the lunar returns for his death (Sep 12, 2003, Nashville, TN, morning), his wife's death (May 15, 2003, Nashville), his spontaneous onstage public proposal to June (Mar 1, 1968, probably evening, London, ON) - they're all right on the mark (all the indications being quite fine as they are and even better for a slightly earlier time). The time, in fact, might be really close since, for this time, the first two years of his three-year fame-fueling TV show overlapped solar arc Jupiter to his Descendant.

So... I have no complaint about the birth time.

Except... where is the Saturn?

This might be the LEAST Saturnian chart I've ever seen and, from what I know of him, I'd expect the opposite. Allowing that I might be overdoing my attention to his "Man in Black" nickname, he had a hard life and gigantic father issues. That is, all of this is true unless the movie Walk the Line (based on his autobiographies that I haven't read) is drastically in error. (I know it took a few liberties for story-telling purposes, but AFAIK it isn't totally off the rails.) Same with other brief online biographies.

For an early life of deep physical hardship and personal loss, an abusive father that stirs issues resolved very late in life if at all, his gravelly roughness - and yeah, that thing about black! - I'd expect a very strong Saturn influence.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:13 pm

Instead, the only Saturn influence is Moon in Libra - which (while it can touch some of these themes) really doesn't account for those very pointed Saturn features.

Saturn itself is in Capricorn but quite background (near the 12th cusp). It makes no aspects at all. Heck, it's not even highlighted in the Novien.

Saturn IS the most elevated planet, being 25°23' above the horizon; but in a recent survey if planetary elevations, I found mixed results at best and feel this isn't a factor on which we can rely. (I would be loathe to consider this a defining mark of his life in any sense.) Nor is Saturn slow of motion or near its station.

This, then, is my challenge to all of you who want to dig: Where is the loud, vivid presence of Saturn in this chart? Or, if there isn't any, then how do you explain the traits that (above) I enumerated that sound like standard Saturn descriptions?


The chart is quite good in most other ways. The Aquarius-Libra luminaries describe his character well. Ecliptically, he has partile Sun-Mercury-Neptune connected in the foreground, but mundanely they are even a few minutes tighter - plus the include Mars. These describe a lot about him from his addictions and other self-destructive behavior to his enormous talent and musical gift. Here are the mundoscope positions (with the ecliptical positions after):

18°28' (12) - Mars - 7°21' Aqu
20°55' (12) - Sun - 12°58' Aqu
21°31' (6) - Neptune - 12°49' Leo
22°22' (12) - Mercury - 12°41' Aqu

His other outstanding aspect is his 0°30' Venus-Uranus conjunction closely trine Jupiter. Venus and Jupiter are both exalted. This shows his emotional and sexual behaviors, his creative soul, his social consciousness, and more - though Aquarius Sun already covers a lot of that, too.

You can dig out the rest on your own. It's a good chart, a good study chart. Heck, the houses even work well, though you don't need them: Sun in 12th (with its conjunctions and other aspects) fits so much about his life, although most of that is also covered by Sun opposite Neptune. His 7th house Moon speaks to what seemed an absolute need to be married, though Moon in Libra already takes care of that abundantly. So, they work, but they aren't at all necessary.

Have fun with it and let me know your thoughts on my Saturn puzzle.

PS - Just for the record, the Tropical chart doesn't add any more to the Saturn question than the Sidereal. (Less, since at least the Sidereal has Moon in a Saturn constellation.)
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Patrick Machado » Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:57 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:13 pm
Where is the loud, vivid presence of Saturn in this chart? Or, if there isn't any, then how do you explain the traits that (above) I enumerated that sound like standard Saturn descriptions?
He has a Saturn-Pluto square 0°21' in his Novien, closely aspected by natal Pluto. And a Novien Sun-Sedna conjunction 1°27', Novien Sedna being only 1°04' from square natal Asc.

It ain't much, but it's honest work.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:02 pm

LOL. Yes, Saturn 0°03' from 10°-multiple aspect to Pluto in the nativity. - But Saturn square Pluto isn't going to act like the Saturn we see in his character.

OK, let's see what we'd expect:
Resists outside control, “runs their own show.” Even as an employee, wants autonomy. Lone wolf: a solitary path comes naturally (partnership requires choice and effort). Rejects arbitrary expectations. Survivors: Great strength, self-reliance, and persistence in the face of hardship (stubborn, entrenched; pays the necessary price). Conscientious. Tough as nails (especially the women) but can become hard, cut-off, alienated, obsessive. By taking everything on themselves, can feel they bear the world’s weight.
It may all be true... but is this the Saturn for which I was looking?
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Patrick Machado » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:24 pm

The Sedna thing actually looks more appealing to me, though I'd prefer not to rely on experimental factors.

Though it's still too minor, I had missed his Ju = Ma/Sa.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by SteveS » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:03 am

I see his Direct Midpoint of Sun/MC = Saturn (1,00) as a very important Saturn influence in his life. Also, throw in his Direct Midpoint of Me/MC = Saturn (0,52) as playing a role for important Saturn influences. He led a very difficult (Saturn) life to his fame and stardom.His audience identified with his life pains/their life pains through many of his songs.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:32 am

I would think that for his birthplace and early life he was not a strong Saturn expression, but when he relocated East his Natal Saturn topped his chart. It may also be that with his heavy touring he experienced SSR and LR that did have Saturn on the angles.
My dad was a big fan so I heard a lot of music as a child, I always felt like He wasnt really a Man a Black, but that he had so much love in him that society found unacceptable for a man, that he put on airs to protect his true self.
Maybe too in a way his Aquarius seems Saturian.
Maybe he thought he was a Piscean and swallowed the mythos of that which would be very burdensome.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:28 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:03 am
I see his Direct Midpoint of Sun/MC = Saturn (1,00) as a very important Saturn influence in his life.
That's good! I missed it because I have midpoint orbs 1°00' and TMSA shows this one as 1°01'. I'll definitely accept that as showing the father issues, the hardships, affect on his personal moods, though perhaps not all of the range of early hardships. - This is pretty good.

The Me/MC midpoint you also mentioned likely shows some of the psychological events but not the life circumstances so much. I also noticed (for the dark moods) Sa = Ne/MC 56'. These three ALL involve MC with the important natal Sun-Mercury-Neptune configuration, which I think makes them more important. - If these are valid then it also confirms that the half-hour birth time his mother gave is VERY accurate.
He led a very difficult (Saturn) life to his fame and stardom. His audience identified with his life pains/their life pains through many of his songs.
Indeed.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:46 am

Veronica wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:32 am
I would think that for his birthplace and early life he was not a strong Saturn expression, but when he relocated East his Natal Saturn topped his chart.
'The relocation difference from his Arkansas birthplace to Memphis (where he broke out) is small, and most of his early touring was around that area, due south, and back toward the west where he was born. Nashville basically removed all of his foreground planets from a direct picture (for this birth time). Saturn wasn't angular anywhere in the U.S. except (square Ascendant) a corner of New England.

OTOH, getting a home in Southern California (and starting to spend a lot of time here) was quite good for him. If nothing else, it's where he eventually went to Betty Ford to get cleaned up (plus professional opportunities). This is the area he had Jupiter on Descendant. For the coordinates of the Betty Ford Center (35N45'47", 116W24'05"), he had Jupiter 1°05' from Descendant.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:47 am

Thanks, everyone. Feel free to keep commenting on this chart. I think there's a lot to learn from it (and, of course, the native is quite interesting).
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:30 am

I didnt know that he wrote an autobiography "Man in White." I'm interested in reading his own words.
Maybe his man in black is just his Aquarius Sun being anti solar in general, which in society in those days might be felt as Saturnian.
His wiki info actually inclined me to see his early life as not hard comparatively to most human beings up to his Armed services career and higher education degree. I can see where to others who had crippling Saturn lives his story resonated deeply with them thus fueling/funding his career.
He made a great move going west. He shared himself and his knowledge with a new population of musicians and entertainers who to this day are still making new music and uplifting people. A very beautiful thing indeed is the power of synastry and composites.
Maybe his Saturnness comes not from his specific natal chart soley but from the synastry and composites he had with others....

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:00 am

Veronica wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:30 am
I didnt know that he wrote an autobiography "Man in White." I'm interested in reading his own words. Maybe his man in black is just his Aquarius Sun being anti solar in general, which in society in those days might be felt as Saturnian. His wiki info actually inclined me to see his early life as not hard comparatively to most human beings...
As I mentioned, I'm trying not to overly fall into "Man in Black" idea of Saturn - but rely much more on the deep hardship and father issues.

The movie Walk the Line was based on his first two autobiographies, Man in Black: His Own Story in his Own Words and Cash: The Autobiography. I know it's not rigorously accurate - Hollywood, in order to make a visually compelling story does something called "compression" that takes multiple events that really happened and squeezes them into a newly written (technically fictional) scene that tells the essence of how all of those events came together. (Thinks that didn't happen at the same time are told as if they happened together because it makes the story move along and does much of the synthesis of events for viewers). I know, for example, that the scene of his audition with Sam Phillips was a compression scene. But I don't think there was actual falsification and, therefore, the telling of his boyhood is essentially accurate.

It does occur to me that, in some ways, his boyhood wasn't harsher than most of the other people around him. It was a hard time in a hard place. It could be that, as an abstracted Aquarian, he was a little oblivious to it. However, I don't think this is mostly true: The impact of his father's treatment continued his whole life. The childhood violent death of his brother was a hard impact that seems to have created deep guilt.

Cash was involved in the early stages of developing the story and it was based on his first two autobiographies. However, a New York Times article assessing the film said that it "burrows deep into painful territory that Mr. Cash barely explores [in the autobiographies]" so, in that sense, doesn't fit the autobios - but is thought to be accurate.
Maybe his Saturnness comes not from his specific natal chart soley but from the synastry and composites he had with others....
This wouldn't have defined his childhood so broadly. (If it did, then most of what we know about natal astrology would need to be thrown out.)

But let's take a look at perhaps the most important of these: His father, Ray Cash, was born May 13, 1897, also in Kingsland, AR. Unless he was born in the latter part of the day, he had Sun in Aries (which fits the character is portrayed, at least through Johnny's eyes, and which might amplify his psychological power over his son by sign-opposing Johnny's Libra Moon).

The charts have a complicated synastry, but one thing does stand out: Johnny's Saturn is opposite his father's Mars within 3° and square his Venus within 2°. In short form, this is a lot of conflict and not much love lost between them. There are a lot of psychological complexities in these interchanges but, bottom line, these two interchanges are probably the basis of their relationship.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by SteveS » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:30 am

When we look at his mundo aspects we see a conjunct grouping of Sun-Mars-Me opposing his Neptune. Could also help explain his difficulties with his father.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:42 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:30 am
When we look at his mundo aspects we see a conjunct grouping of Sun-Mars-Me opposing his Neptune. Could also help explain his difficulties with his father.
Maybe. Yes, this is the primary aspect structure of his chart (detailed above). Sun can occasionally mean one's father, but in a different way than Saturn. It just seemed to me that his situation felt like Saturn issues. (In contrast, the severe aspects to his Sun affected his sense of himself.)

I see a lot of self-destructiveness in the aspects you list, but not as much the impact of outside severity.

Of course, what would I know (why would I necessarily have clarity) - with also having a close Mars-Neptune (but not tied into a rising Sun) plus a father with Mars conjunct my Saturn <g>?
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:05 am

BTW, the magnificent June Carter was born June 23, 1929, in Mace Springs, VA, time unknown. Her Gemini-Sagittarius luminaries show well in her character, while Moon opposite Pluto (lasting most of the day) is no surprise at all.

I do wish we had a time. What struck me in looking at their charts side by side is that the whole relationship felt like Johnny's Venus on June's angles. He simply adored her, top to bottom, beginning years before they met and just getting stronger as it went. Johnny had a powerful partile Venus-Uranus conjunction. What I was seeing between them might have come just from her Moon square his Venus-Uranus (possible during part of the day), and that probably was a factor, but that didn't feel quite right: There's a specific feel of one person's Venus on the other's angle, a nearly unconditional adoration. It's not the same as his Venus square her Pluto (which, more often then not, is a hit-and-miss brief but intense contact) or even fully explained by the "lovers" feel of his Venus to her Moon.

Of the four times on June's day of birth that Johnny's Venus was on her angles, two of them were outright bad charts and one of the two remaining stood out better than the other: About 12:45 PM, Johnny's Venus-Uranus was on her Descendant. For her nativity, this also put her Moon-Pluto opposition close and on the Meridian, with Uranus moderately angular on Descendant. This particular arrangement shows her strong family-rootedness (Moon is on IC) but her breakout, "not like anybody else' Pluto on MC.

For this time, the Demi-SLR a week before her death (from complications following a heart valve replacement) had natal Mars and Neptune closely angular and a mix of moderately angular transiting planets (including a close transiting Mars-Neptune conjunction). The full SLR had Saaturn conjunct natal Neptune 19' foreground.

For Johnny's surprise proposal to her (onstage during a performance - apparently a peak moment but not particularly comfortable for her), natal Moon on MC is the biggest feature, but also transiting Venus, Saturn, and Pluto and natal Venus and Pluto - a reasonable mix. (Not outstanding, not as angular as I'd like, but fitting the mixed-emotion event.) The main aspect was Pluto square natal Pluto about 1°, foreground, plus the two foreground Venuses.

So... this chart holds up well enough to be considered (but we'll probably never be able to confirm one way or the other).
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:12 am

It was very interesting to read that as a small child he knew he wanted to sing, and that his mother took an extra job to pay for singing lessons.

I feel that his love for singing might have been extremely upsetting to his father. A love for singing and dancing is not seen as proper behavior for boys if you want them to grow up to be heterosexual manly men, which is the cultural norm.

In the lyrics he wrote in Man in Black, he tells a very Aquarian reason for his clothes being black and not rainbow and I deeply grok what he is saying. Things are tough all over and until we all can be free to be who we are none of us are free.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:24 am

Veronica wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:12 am
I feel that his love for singing might have been extremely upsetting to his father. A love for singing and dancing is not seen as proper behavior for boys if you want them to grow up to be heterosexual manly men, which is the cultural norm.
Absolutely. And it's not practical. He just needed a farm hand, someone who could work the cotton fields hard.

If you haven't seen the movie Walk the Line, I recommend it (on Prime Video at the moment). Reese Witherspoon got best actress for it, and both actors won various nominations and awards. I'd seen and enjoyed it several times and then watched it again after we went to Memphis - confirming that the Sun Studio scenes were shot at the original Sun site as it's been restored (now that we know what the entire area looks like, the angles from which they shot the building were telling: they avoided the part of the building at the corner and certain surroundings). The early story of Johnny and the whole Sun crew (the "Sun Rocket Tour") with Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Roy Orbison was right on track and meshed well with what we learned from the studio tour and other historic sites. Mostly, though, it's just a good bio-pic of a movie.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:55 am

I have watched it many times, it's a beautiful movie that makes me cry. I saw it was on Netflix recently and added it to my saved, might be a good day for it after Karen's Mass.

I have often wondered if there really isnt any such thing as father issues, but more along the lines of very twisted mother issues. I have thought this because in looking at things in my own life that I thought were father issues they turned out to be issues about my relationship with the feminine nature....

John's mother Carrie was born March 13, 1904 in Rison AK. She has a Capricorn Stellium to his natal Capricorn Saturn and possible moon aspects to John's.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:09 pm

Veronica wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:55 am
John's mother Carrie was born March 13, 1904 in Rison AK. She has a Capricorn Stellium to his natal Capricorn Saturn and possible moon aspects to John's.
I think the more important thing was her Aquarius Sun - like his. She understood him in ways that his father never could. Her Capricorn Moon conjunct Saturn supported her culturally imposed role of service to her husband and "just keep everybody doing the best they can" momentum.

Compared to J.R.'s chart, her Sun was exactly on his Ascendant - she likely lit up the room for him and was a lifeline, someone who saw him for what he was. Her Moon likely opposed his Jupiter.

No, his problems weren't with her chart at all. It was with his father.
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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Veronica » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:29 pm

I completely agree.
She did.
She lit up everything for him.

and it makes me think of all the little boys I have known who so love their mother and wish nothing but a life of love and happiness for her. Those sort of wishes come from seeing their mother unloved and sad,

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by SteveS » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:34 am

SteveS wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:30 am
When we look at his mundo aspects we see a conjunct grouping of Sun-Mars-Me opposing his Neptune. Could also help explain his difficulties with his father.
Jim responded:
Maybe. Yes, this is the primary aspect structure of his chart (detailed above). Sun can occasionally mean one's father, but in a different way than Saturn. It just seemed to me that his situation felt like Saturn issues. (In contrast, the severe aspects to his Sun affected his sense of himself.)
I see a lot of self-destructiveness in the aspects you list, but not as much the impact of outside severity. Of course, what would I know (why would I necessarily have clarity) - with also having a close Mars-Neptune (but not tied into a rising Sun) plus a father with Mars conjunct my Saturn <g>?
Yes, I understand where you are coming from Jim. I note with Johnny’s Navamsa (9thH), Venus is placed in the mix with his severe Sun-Mars-Me 180 his Neptune. I read this as his creative artistic talent as a singer/song writer, singing about his life of pain with his severe Natal aspect. How do you read this 9H Venus Jim?

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:04 am

I always look at the 5th harmonics for indepth information and I see he has a tight Neptune-Saturn aspect. Could this be a clue?

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by SteveS » Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:34 am

Flo wrote:
I always look at the 5th harmonics for indepth information and I see he has a tight Neptune-Saturn aspect. Could this be a clue?
Indeed Flo, it is a clue to his life's pain in many ways. The only two harmonic charts I pay attention are the 5th & 9th harmonic, and I do think they add reliable info for Mr. Cash life. Looking at his Natal, I was trying to see/understand where his artistic talents showed, but could only see it in his 9 harmonic Venus placement, adding confirmation the importance Vedic/Hindu astrologers place on the Navamsa/9th Harmonic. I am not exactly sure how the Hindu/Vedic astrologers use the 9th harmonic chart, but my research proves to me by using priciples of Sidereal Astrology aspects with the 9th harmonic aspects, many times it will describe the destiny of a native.

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Re: Johnny Cash

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jun 20, 2022 10:24 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:34 am
I note with Johnny’s Navamsa (9thH), Venus is placed in the mix with his severe Sun-Mars-Me 180 his Neptune. I read this as his creative artistic talent as a singer/song writer, singing about his life of pain with his severe Natal aspect. How do you read this 9H Venus Jim?
To be clear, I don't regard the Navamsa (9th harmonic from 0° Aries) to be valid in any sense valid except that its internal aspects - Navamsa to Navamsa - are identical to the Novien. That's what we have here.

Steve is noting Novien positions that form aspects often thought to be artistically expressive:

24°05' Tau - N Mercury
24°37' Tau - N Venus
25°22' Sco - N Neptune
26°38' Tau - N Sun
29°10' Tau - N Uranus

Historic astrology (mostly Tropical, but somewhat Sidereal) thinks of Mercury-Venus influences as artistically expressive and often credits them with outright creativity. I'll go along with the former ("smooth talker," graciously expressive. esthetic crafting) but not with the overt creativity aspect. Statistics show that creativity arises primarily from Mercury-Mars combinations, which Cash in his nativity with the mundane aspects of Mars to his Sun-Mercury-Neptune.

But this Novien is interesting: It has the same Sun-Mercury-Neptune of the nativity with, as Steve said, Venus included (aspecting the other three). I think this mostly gave him charm in the "could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo" sense. (His stage presence also had that.) We also see his romantic idealism and much of his compassion for those deeply hurt by life. - Hmm, most of these latter traits I get from the Venus-Neptune, which seems to be drawing my attention more than the other parts. He loved love!

Perhaps most interesting to me, though, is that Sun is within 3° of conjunct Uranus. Now, as an Aquarian he didn't need more Uranus; but if this birthtime is right, his Ascendant was 29°09' Aquarius, meaning the Novien Sun-Uranus conjunction is exactly square his Ascendant! Of all the people that could have been born approximately when and where he was, nobody else likely had this unique, electrical combination of Sun and Uranus conjoined exactly touching an angle.

The Novien has a few other interesting aspects to the natal. First, for the early hardship and sense of belittling suppression I see in the man and his history, natal Saturn 6°28' Capricorn exactly squares Novien Mars at 6°12' Aries. Second, perhaps as an "entertainer" or "show biz" super-combo, his natal Sun-Mercury-Neptune (all at 13° Aquarius) square Novien Jupiter at 13°01' Taurus. These seem to be like living his entire life under a transit of Saturn to his Mars AND of Sun, Mercury, and Neptune to his Jupiter.
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