Reconsidering SLR Technique

General Discussion on Solar & Lunar Returns matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Jim Eshelman
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:57 pm

Prince Charles was born November 14, 1948, 9:14 PM, Buckingham Palace, 51N30, 0W08. For the same wedding, his July 24 SLR was quite boring (ignoring the partile Moon-Sun square away from angles, and outside the scope of the current inquiry: they both had exact Moon-Sun aspects in their lunars).

t Neptune on IC -8°25'

His natal planets add almost as little:

r Mars on IC -6°44'

Consequently, the only foreground aspect in the entire chart is:

t Neptune conj. r Mars 1°06'

None of it is very good, though the aspect showing the height of matrimonial jitters is at least humorous.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by SteveS » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:45 pm

Jim wrote:
Possibly you saw this way ahead of the rest of us (in which case, thanks for carrying the torch :) ). Either way, I need to look at it freshly now The traditional (seeming to work) theory for my entire (almost) half century in the subject has been that having a natal Jupiter-Neptune aspect foreground (and, for sake of argument, no transiting planets) is as important and vivid as having a transiting Jupiter-Neptune aspect foreground (and, for sake of argument, no natal planet).
Yes, this is how I interpreted your meanings for Natal Planets foreground, but felt when the Natal Planets foreground showed dynamic 0,90,180 aspects in the Natal Chart itself, the more recognizable the natal symbolism in the return chart. For example: My Oct 19 2020 (preceding Prez Election) features my r Sun partile 90 r Uranus on the SLR angles (Dsc & IC), but not in any hard aspects to any ANGULAR transiting planets in the SLR. So, I interpret this SLR as another return chart revealing to my mind something to do with ‘self- discovery’ in a natal manner—probably having something to do with a Prez wager 'knowing' myself as a gambler. Transiting Venus-Neptune are in the foreground of this SLR so this aspect will be part of the SLR manifestation pertaining to probably the Prez Election.

Back in my glory days for Casino gambling, I would spend hours/days moving myself around the USA trying to find a location where I would have an angular transiting SLR benefic in partile 0,90,180 to my Natal Jupiter, because I felt this was my best case location for a very benefic time for gambling with low risk money for a possible high reward. I would have to wait months/years for this type SLR to exist. Fagan taught the best case situations for gambling were when your natal Jupiter was receiving benefic transiting aspects, and your return teachings taught me to if possible for picking the most benefic location-- were to put your Natal Jupiter on a SLR angle receiving an angular benefic transiting factor with a SLR.

What has me intrigued about your current DSLR is your mundo r Moon-Pluto landed on the horizon of your DSLR, but is not in hard aspect in your Natal---so how do we interpret this unique situation?? I await your conclusion.

Jim wrote:
Of course, there is a perspective difference to weigh in. You are primarily interested in events. I don't care whether there is an event or not.
Exactly Jim, and I understand this ‘perspective difference’.

Jim wrote:
Here is my current challenge to that statement of mine: Is that true merely of their angularity, or only when they have a transiting aspect? We easily could mistake the latter for the former.
I understand Jim. All I can say about this ‘challenge’ is what I have discovered is when an angular SLR transiting factor is partile 0,90,180 a Natal factor: Very important life manifestations relative to one’s immediate environment are going to be timed with this type SLR/DSLR. IMO, its these type transits to the Natal which I term ‘super revealing’ transits in one’s life. To me—they act like revelations and makes all of my studying Sidereal Astrology so rewarding. Also pertaining to this ‘challenge’---my Oct 19 2020 SLR will probably help me to offer more ‘weigh’ pertaining to the difference vs a ‘transiting aspect’ or not.

Jim wrote:
Or JFK's final SLR raises the question, "Gosh, with everything going on, is his angular natal Venus actually doing anything in the chart? It is the only natal factor not involved in transits and the only natal factor that seems not to apply vividly to the event."
Jim, I really don’t know for sure, but based on my experiences: If I see a Natal Planet foreground in a SLR not including an angular partile SLR transit, or no hard aspects in the Natal, I give it little weight in the SLR.
Jim asked:
Yes. But let me break it down to one single question: Would the exact angularity of a natal planet mean anything in the SLR if it received NO ASPECTS from any other foreground planet? If the only thing about it was its angularity?
I think I just answered this in previous statement, but I need to see partile angular transiting planets in the SLR to a foreground Natal factor, or see the Natal Factor itself dynamically aspected very close to the SLR angles. I think the words I quoted from you also answers this same question. My learning started from your teachings based on my forward experiences with my own return charts.

Jim asked:
Does this mean that natal Sun-Uranus on an angle BY ITSELF is significant?
I will have this answer if: 1: Trump loses the 2020 election with my long ago ‘self-discovery’ about his partile Saturn t. to his Natal Venus and Natal Sun/Mars-t Saturn on election night, and 2: if I receive high betting odds the Dem candidate wins the Prez. I will have a better answer for you after the 2020 election.

Jim asked:
Is it the foreground transit that marks the event fully, or does your Sun-Uranus angular have a meaning of its own?
Unless I have miss-interpreted your Return teachings, the Sun-Uranus angular ‘on its own’ has very important angular meaning because it ranks as a very high priority Natal Aspect being partile 90 involving a light. In your own words: “Partile aspects reign supreme.” Again, I will have more to say about this after 2020 election. I do know this: When I ‘discovered’ this Trump partile Saturn transit for election night 2020 it acted like a huge revelation to me for wagering purposes. For my own ‘self’ being I rate this partile Saturn transit as very high % ‘revealing’ the astrological truth to me it is ‘TIME’ for Trump to lose the 2020 election. It is these type astrological moments in my life which ‘excite’ my being—its what I live for as a gambling Virgo analytical astrologer. It’s how my partile 90 Sun-Uranus Natal works in my life, relative to my Natal life---its ‘knowing myself’ astrologically and executing the desires/objectives of my soul life. I treat all this as a most fun cosmic game and as a Virgo I love analyzing the astrological details and indeed SLR’s, at times, are very important life details. :)

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:58 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:45 pm
What has me intrigued about your current DSLR is your mundo r Moon-Pluto landed on the horizon of your DSLR, but is not in hard aspect in your Natal---so how do we interpret this unique situation?? I await your conclusion.
The theoretical way to interpret it is that, for the duration of the return chart, I have a natal Moon-Pluto opposition. - I have seen this work out in other charts, like the one's I mentioned for Trump where he suddenly has Venus and Saturn square Neptune natal aspect just because it falls that way in his SLR and has weeks of deep despair and brooding.

But I haven't seen what I would expect in myself from a natal Moon-Pluto opposition this month. I'm no more defiant and uncooperative than usual :), not spending more time voluntarily alone, not hitting the road or demanding other habitats, or any of the stuff that I normally think of as going with a natal Moon-Pluto.
Moon-Pluto wrote:Bold & forthright, questioning & challenging, maverick & alien; independent, “marching to a different drummer,” resisting authority. Avoids habitual conformity (rebellious?); resists conventional conditioning and being made to concur with others’ values and codes. Restless, unwilling to be still for long, can uproot or take to the road on little notice. Deeply inquiring into existential mysteries, often igniting remarkable intuitive insights.
All I can say about this ‘challenge’ is what I have discovered is when an angular SLR transiting factor is partile 0,90,180 a Natal factor: Very important life manifestations relative to one’s immediate environment are going to be timed with this type SLR/DSLR. IMO, its these type transits to the Natal which I term ‘super revealing’ transits in one’s life. To me—they act like revelations and makes all of my studying Sidereal Astrology so rewarding.
See if you can find examples where a natal planet is closely angular and NO transit to it within 3-5°. I'm finding these are quite rare. Mostly, the few I've found look like the natal planet is inoperative. - The starkest exception I've found is Richard Speck for his murders under an SLR with only natal Mars - no aspects, no transiting planets, no other natal planets. A single example doesn't prove a rule, though, and most I've seen over the last couple of days look like the angular natal planet is simply inoperative unless it has an aspect.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:30 pm

Another striking example of where transits make all the difference in the expression of foreground natal planets: Madonna was born August 16, 1958, 7:05 AM, Bay City, MI. On her 47th birthday, 8/16/2005, at her home on the outskirts of London, she suffered a serious horse-riding accident with several broken bones and needed hospitalization. It was a tough climb back to reattain her performance physical condition.

Her SSR for that day had one foreground planet:

t Uranus on IC +3°12'

It also brought three natal planets together in aspect in the foreground:

r Moon on MC +2°03'
r Pluto on MC +5°20'
r Mars on Dsc +6°52'

r Mars-Pluto sq. 1°32' in mundo
r Moon-Pluto conj. 3°17' in mundo
r Moon-Mars sq. 4°49' in mundo

Notice that this creates aspects, including a natal Moon-Pluto conjunction, that don't exist in her natal. Put this together with the Uranus and you get:

t Uranus op. r Moon 1°09' in mundo
t Uranus op. r Pluto 2°08' in mundo
t Uranus sq. r Mars 3°40' in mundo

A very complete picture.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Mike » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:17 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:58 pm
See if you can find examples where a natal planet is closely angular and NO transit to it within 3-5°. I'm finding these are quite rare. Mostly, the few I've found look like the natal planet is inoperative. - The starkest exception I've found is Richard Speck for his murders under an SLR with only natal Mars - no aspects, no transiting planets, no other natal planets. A single example doesn't prove a rule, though, and most I've seen over the last couple of days look like the angular natal planet is simply inoperative unless it has an aspect.
I have a personal example I'd like to throw in, because this has actually been profoundly relevant in my personal life in recent history.

Two of my recent lunar returns have been primarily characterized by natal Mars foreground, both on IC (just like in my natal), but much closer to the angle than in my natal.

My January 25th SLR for Hackensack, NJ has natal Mars 2*27' before IC, and t. Neptune 9*31' above Dsc. t. Mars sesquisquares natal Mars, which does count for something, probably, but I still feel that this chart is really about natal Mars.

My March 21st SLR has r. Mars just 0*44' before IC. Aside from that, transiting Mars is 8*34' past MC. Transiting Venus is 3*09' off WP in RA, which is past the threshold from what I understand.
There are no hard aspects (besides a wide semisquare from t. Saturn) to natal Mars in this chart.

Both SLRs hit me immediately once they activated. I was blisteringly reactive, extremely riled up, far outside of the norm (even for me), for the entire duration of the Jan 25th SLR, and so far, in the current one, that is still true.
During this current SLR, I had a really deep psycho-spiritual crisis about wounds from childhood that I have been reacting to my whole life, and essentially reworked my wiring at the deepest level of my personal unconscious that I've been privy to thus far in my life.
(That occurred around 8pm on March 26th, in case anyone wants to explore my transits and progs. There's various minor things going on, plus Saturn exact on SSR Asc, but I really don't think they match up to the intensity of the experience. Transiting Jupiter just left orb to natal Mars at the time of this event.)

In any case, the first one did not feel like what transiting Neptune has felt like, and the second one felt far too strong to chalk up to anything else that I can see besides natal Mars. The dominant tone in both of them was of relentless, reactive, projection-ridden anger. (Although I feel that I "got" the point of these lunar returns, and I have felt a weight lifted since I made the shifts in that experience mentioned above.)

I don't have a catalog of public events to measure, so perhaps this isn't really evidence of the caliber that we're looking for in this discussion - but this happened to be an example so strong for me that I thought it was worth throwing in.

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:29 pm

O.J. SImpson was born July 9, 1947, 8:08 AM PST, San Francisco, CA. His SLR for his murder of two people (one of them his wife) occurred on June 2, 1994 and features the following (in addition to a non-angular 22' Sun-Saturn square):

t Uranus on MC +0°08'
t Mars on Asc +1°49'
t Jupiter on Dsc +1°58'
t Neptune on MC +5°31'

t Mars-Jupiter op. 0°09' in mundo
t Mars-Uranus sq. 1°41' in mundo
t Jupiter-Uranus sq. 1°50' in mundo
t Mars-Neptune sq. 3°42' in mundo
t Jupiter-Neptune sq. 3°39'

It's pretty good, especially with Uranus and Mars leading the pack. The rest, I think, shows the behavior we all saw form him in the few days following, all consistent with someone used to winning by running hard enough.

Adding natal planets we get:

r Mercury on IC +2°28'
r Saturn sq. Asc 1°23'
r Pluto sq. Asc 1°46'
-- Nadir = Sa/Pl 0°12'
r Jupiter on Dsc -5°39'

t Saturn-Pluto conj. 3°09'

Does this show the event on its own, just from the angularity? Perhaps. The Saturn-Pluto is cruel and unfeeling enough. The Jupiter might show a unreasonable confidence (or avarice: it seem to be all about his wanting to have Nicole). It's not bad, but not quite as good as the transits.

When we combine the two, we get some real aspect magic as well as a few strange aspects.

t Jupiter sq. r Mercury 0°30' in mundo
t Uranus op. r Mercury 0°36'
t Mars sq. r Mercury 0°39' in mundo
t Neptune op. r Mercury 2°20'
t Mars sq. r Saturn 2°34'
t Jupiter sq. r Saturn 3°37'

Sticking, for the moment, to those within 3°, Mars to natal Saturn and Mercury are obvious. Neptune to Mercury (maybe with Uranus added) suggests real insanity, at least temporarily. Most of these aspects suggest drama, putting on a show. It's a mixed bag, but quite interesting when we break down the pieces like this.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:38 pm

Mike, thanks for the examples and for joining the discussion.

Since you gave the time for that one eruption, I thought I'd take at least a brief look. The first thing I saw was Saturn conjunct natal Mercury about 12', usually show acute frustration, not being listened to, etc. (you know the drill). More to the point and the hour, though, transiting Mars was 12' from sesqui-square your Neptune, the aspect that, more than anything, removes all the shields and blinders from the psyche and leaves it raw and vulnerable. Sun squared your Uranus but I think Mars to your Neptune as Saturn crossed your Mercury is the big story there.

This doesn't mean the SLR isn't a factor! I don't remember which town you're currently in across the river, but I think your birthplace is close enough, yes? And yes, natal Mars on IC is the biggest thing happening in your relatively new SLR. (Transiting Mars has just a bit.)
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Mike » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:50 pm

I'm in Hackensack, NJ, and have been for all of currently-active charts (including SSR). Yes, its effectively the same place as my birthplace.

Thank you for taking a look for me :)

Yes, I forgot to mention Saturn to Mercury. I've seen that one operating a lot at work (and have thusly been prepared for it), but didn't think as much about how it may have applied to my general mental state as well... the acuteness of the Mars vibe (and all of the emotions corresponding to it) dominated my attention.
It is appropriate for this now that I look more clearly at it, yes. It certainly contributes a hefty amount alongside the other factors.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:38 pm
More to the point and the hour, though, transiting Mars was 12' from sesqui-square your Neptune, the aspect that, more than anything, removes all the shields and blinders from the psyche and leaves it raw and vulnerable. Sun squared your Uranus but I think Mars to your Neptune as Saturn crossed your Mercury is the big story there.
Do you think it was the Saturn to Mercury that facilitated Mars to Neptune having the impact that it did?
I usually find myself underwhelmed with Mars (and Sun, for that matter) transits. Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places.

Not to derail - just wanted to ask about that while the ink was still wet.

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:21 pm

I think... Saturn to Mercury can be really frustrating. While you have early life stuff coming up and your psyche re-equilibrating around it, nonetheless the simple psychological explanation for the event you described is a sudden loss of frustration tolerance. This can drop when our innate tolerance drops, or when we are sufficiently overwhelmed that our normal resources are suddenly insufficient, or when frustration increases beyond our threshold. One thing typical of Saturn-Mercury combinations is an increase in frustration, i.e., "shit don't work right, damn it!"

Within that context, especially if other stuff in your life is leaning a particular way, an aspect that seriously challenges frustration tolerance can break the dam.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by SteveS » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:16 am

Jim wrote:
A single example doesn't prove a rule, though, and most I've seen over the last couple of days look like the angular natal planet is simply inoperative unless it has an aspect.
Unless the angular Natal Planet receives partile 0,90,180 from a transiting SLR planet, or if the Natal Planet is tight or partile cnj a SLR angle with partile Natal aspects, I am going to follow your ‘inoperative’ wording in your above quoted words. I may change my mind after I see how my Oct 2020 SLR manifests covering the 2020 Prez election with my partile Sun-Uranus 90 on the SLR angles.

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:34 am

So far (meaning the last few days), most examples looks like even if the natal planet is partile conjunct the angle it isn't operative. Mike's example is a striking exception, where natal Mars exactly on IC clearly defined the month for him (even though there also were descriptive transits).
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by SteveS » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:14 am

Jim wrote:
So far (meaning the last few days), most examples looks like even if the natal planet is partile conjunct the angle it isn't operative.
So, does this mean some of the past Sidereal Astrology teachings on this Natal Planet angular Return issue needs to be changed?

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:36 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:14 am
Jim wrote:
So far (meaning the last few days), most examples looks like even if the natal planet is partile conjunct the angle it isn't operative.
So, does this mean some of the past Sidereal Astrology teachings on this Natal Planet angular Return issue needs to be changed?
I'm not being hasty with drawing that conclusion. I think we need a lot more examples dumped in here and I'm hoping people have thoughtful examples.

IF (big if) the pattern holds, it means that the truth is more like what Bradley first presented in Solar and Lunar Returns (similar to Fagan's writings from the '40s) that showed the SLR more as a stand-alone chart without consideration of the natal except advised that you had to consider its transits to natal planets. Those transits would be of the usual generous orb if foreground, or partile if not foreground.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:38 am

Orson Welles was born May 6, 1915, 7:00 AM, Kenosha, WI. On October 30, 1938, at 8:00 PM, from New York City his Mercury Theater production of The War of the Worlds broadcast with impact and consequences well known (and documented elsewhere on this site) - one of the great cultural events of its time with unexpected effect and consequences because thousands of people listening thought it was a live news broadcast of the invasion of Earth by Martians. Welles, of course, had to exult in and suffer under the repercussions of this in the days following, and I regard his new SLR (November 1, 2:28 AM) already in effect anyway. (FWIW his prior Demi-SLR is quite entertaining in its description of success.)

The new SLR had the following angularity (in addition to non-angular Moon aspects with Mercury and Jupiter that surely describe his broadcast success):

t Neptune on Asc +0°11'
r Jupiter on Dsc +1°31'
-- t Neptune op. r Jupiter 1°20' in mundo
r Saturn on MC -9°04'

This is fabulous. It;s a horrible example for the current thread because it doesn't have a single natal planet angular outside of an aspect pattern (except natal Saturn which is very weakly angular).

I think it's a fine representation of the event and might be useful in discerning subtler understanding of the chart's working (which isn't particularly useful in the current study).
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:17 am

Yoko Ono was born February 18, 1933, 8:30 PM JST, Tokyo, Japan. On December 8, 1980, 10"50 PM EST, New York, NY she saw her husband murdered in front of their home. Transiting Saturn conjoined her natal Ascendant 0°49' among other aspects. Her SLR occurred not quite two days earlier.

Transiting planets foreground in the SLR include:

t Pluto on Asc -3°11'
t Mars on IC +5°13'
t Saturn on Asc +6°39'
t Jupiter on Asc +7°36'
-- t Jupiter-Saturn conj. 0°57' in mundo
-- t Mars-Saturn sq. 1°26' in mundo
-- t Mars-Jupiter sq. 2°23' in mundo

The chart is good if not perfect. It's closest foreground aspects are descriptive. The ambivalence of some of the symbols might be absorbed in the complexity of her emotions.

Natal planets foreground likely show the shock of her reaction, and are completely tied up in Pluto's transiting aspects:

r Pluto on MC -5°51'
r Uranus on Dsc -6°16'
-- r Uranus-Pluto sq. 0°25' in mundo
-- t Pluto sq. r Pluto 1°19'
-- t Pluto op. r Uranus 2°24'

Nothing here helps with the current inquiry. While I'm on it, though, there are a few other things of great interest to record. Besides the Moon-Sun conjunction (which likely ties the event to her marriage), the following partile aspects are not foreground:

t Sun sq. r Mars 0°27'
t Neptune sq. r Jupiter 0°46'
t Saturn conj. r Asc 0°57'
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:41 am

Wolfgang A. Mozart was born January 27, 1756, 8:00 PM (according to both his father's report and an official birth record) in Salzburg, Austria. He died from kidney failure and general dwindling health December 5, 1891, 1:00 AM, in Wien, Austria.

His November 26 SLR shows the death well. Here are the angular planets:

t Saturn on MC +2°35'
t Pluto on Dsc -8°15'
t Jupiter on IC -9°28' [Venus at 10°31']

This is more than sufficiently descriptive of the death. However, in some ways the natal planets angular are much more direct, close, etc. Note the focus on Descendant, the anaereta. (Contrary to my first impression, natal Sun and Saturn are sufficiently close to be considered conjunct for these purposes, although their midpoint is 0°36' from the angle.) It's not perfect, given some of the ways Jupiter is involved, but these might boil down to the state of estate at that time.

r Mercury on Dsc -2°11'
r Saturn on Dsc +2°14'
r Sun on Dsc -2°57'
r Neptune on Asc -5°05'
r Jupiter on IC -5°12'
-- r Jupiter-Neptune op. 0°07' in mundo
-- r Sun-Mercury conj. 0°45'
-- r Mercury-Neptune op. 1°30'
-- r Sun-Neptune op. 2°08' in mundo
-- r Sun-Jupiter sq. 2°15' in mundo
-- r Mercury-Jupiter sq. 3°01' in mundo

The transiting aspects are:

t Saturn sq. r Saturn 0°21' in mundo
t Pluto sq. r Jupiter 3°03' in mundo
t Pluto op. r Neptune 3°10' in mundo
t Jupiter sq. r Jupiter 4°16' in mundo
t Jupiter sq. r Neptune 4°23' in mundo
t Saturn sq. r Mercury 4°46' in mundo

These are interesting in the sense that the one really close aspect is Saturn to Saturn - meaning that the natal Saturn angular isn't standing by itself, but is part of transiting Saturn's picture. The only other aspect within about 3° is Pluto to Jupiter, which describes the destitution. The other aspects are questionable.

So... not a lot learned, but a really strong example. The transiting planets were spot-on, the natal planets were quite good especially where they were involved in transits. Natal aspects brought to the foreground were not all that intersecting and, in some casts, were contradictory.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Arena » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:29 am

The only other aspect within about 3° is Pluto to Jupiter, which describes the destitution
Do you remember the thread about money making aspects Jim?
Well it turned out that natal aspects of Jupiter - Pluto and Jup-Ven was the most common aspect for those extremely rich people. Jup-Pluto is a success aspect so I am not sure why you want to connect that to destitution in this case. In Mozart's case it is the Saturn that describes his destitution, Saturn is much closer to the angles and the Saturn-Saturn aspect is the closest in mundo aspect.

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:54 am

At rkot, Jupiter-Pluto means a dramatic shift in Jupiter things. Thst CAN mean a miraculously gain, though for most people it means ecinomic devaststion.
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Veronica » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:59 am

Its not my favorite lunar return.
Its my least favorite.
Ive never been the same.

June 16, 1996 Rochester Ny

I dont think that the lunar return chart on its own tells what happened, out in the world, and inside of me unless the angles part is told.

and Jim....
If that moon plutoness you got going on wasnt angular
You might not be examining this. Imho.

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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:18 am

Arena wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:29 am
The only other aspect within about 3° is Pluto to Jupiter, which describes the destitution
Do you remember the thread about money making aspects Jim?
Well it turned out that natal aspects of Jupiter - ....
SLR means Solar Lunar Return. You're talking about natal aspects. Natal aspects work in a fundamentally different way from transits (including returns.) Fagan had some very succinct and basic things to say on the directionality of natal aspects vs transiting aspects.

If you look at Jupiter-Pluto as drawing wealth, natal Jupiter to Pluto draws wealth to the native, while transiting Jupiter to Pluto draws wealth away from the native.

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Arena
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Arena » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:04 am

Actually, I have Fagan in front of me now and he does not say that this aspect draws wealth away from the native. He says it can bring relief to the native after having been under pressure or it can mean money gained or lost. It would be pretty strange JSAD if the natal aspect would mean the total opposite of the transit aspect. If it means a huge wealth in a natal aspect I find it very hard to accept that it would mean destitution in transit. That is not how astrology works I believe. I have also pointed out that a much more likely reason for the destitution would be that angular Saturn and Saturn-Saturn aspect.

But aside from that, I think using Mozart as an example is not a good idea. I would not count on that birth time being precise from 1756, even though recorded officially. Ask any man around you if they know precisely when their children were born, and probably around 80-90% of them will not remember at all. They may remember if it was morning, day, evening or night, but very few of them will remember the actual minute of birth. Not saying his father is in the 80-90%, but I wouldn't easily count on him being in the 10-20% :) ...but that's just me.

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Mike
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Mike » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:52 am

My brand new SLR for Hackensack, NJ (as of April 18th 2019), is another great opportunity to examine how natal planets foreground in SLRs work in the absence of important transiting factors.

The only angular planets in the chart at all, and their aspects, are:
r. Mars on MC -0*32'
r. Venus on Asc +3*18'

r. Mars 90 r. Venus 3*50' in mundo (they have a sextile a little less wide in my natal, but the square is new)
t. Uranus 90 r. Venus 3*15' in eclipto

Also worth noting:
t. Mars 90 r. Asc 0*47'

Here's detail on my transits and progs for April 20th, 2019 (when I'm checking in detail).
Summary: some heavy Saturn transits showing both my perception of increased pressure and workload, and my unwillingness to yield control, and probably sense of rebellion against that control. Mars transits showing general irritability, being "fired up," probably reactive. Lots of Venus showing up in minor ways in progressions and quotidians; this manifested as hanging out with close friends, generally receiving emotional support, and some ongoing inner changes in the way I relate to Venus.

t. Saturn 0 r. Mercury just left 1* orb (I'm technically still "within" the scope of this transit, as it has yet to make its retro and final direct passes)
t. Mars 0 s. Moon
not quite within 1* orb yet: t. Jupiter 0 s. Mars - this is pending and will start activating quite soon.
t. Mars 90 s. Neptune
t. Saturn 0 s. Pluto
t. Saturn 0 s. Asc

P2 Sun 0 P2 Venus (am I using P2 right here, for secondary progressed natal planets?)
P2 Moon 90 r. Venus

t. Sun 90 P2 Sun

And some quotidians that may have affected the last day or so for me:
Q MC 0 P2 Moon
Q Asc 0 P2 Mercury
Q Asc 90 r. Moon
Q MC 90 r. Venus
Q Asc 0 r. Neptune

SQ MC 90 s. Mercury
SQ MC 90 s. Jupiter

Once again, while there are some Mars transits going on right now, I can say that I believe I started really feeling the Mars-heavy SLR the day after it kicked in. Once again, natal Mars partile conjunct an SLR angle seems to feel to me like a near-uncontrollable surge of my own Mars force, but for once, natal Mars is on MC instead of IC in a chart angle - as a result, I feel nearly none of the sensitive, projection-heavy reactivity of previous SLR periods, but instead feel intensely driven, motivated, unusually confident, ready for confrontation and exerting myself physically.

Notably important, however, is that Mars transit to Solar Moon. I started really feeling the martial energy once that entered 1* orb on 4/19/19. This is an argument against the SLR being the root cause of my perceptions.
However, let me say against that that these past few natal Mars-dominated SLRs have been standout periods in my life in terms of how I perceive my own martial energy levels and desired expression, way above what I've noticed for Mars transits to natal/solar bodies by themselves.

I'll keep monitoring how this SLR develops and update this thread as the real-time Mars transits fluctuate.

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Jim Eshelman
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Re: Reconsidering SLR Technique

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:48 am

Very interesting. Thank you.

Meanwhile, have fun with that new SLR!
Jim Eshelman
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