Solar Arc Directions

General Discussion on Transit & Progression matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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Jim Eshelman
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:02 am

Excellent example, Steve. :) And yes, those involvijg angles above are once in a lifetime, taking 90 years for a repeat, even though Mercury-Jupiter will occur at 45-year intervals.

How have you been? I hope your absence has been from enjoyable things and not health issues.

BTW did you see tue Firebrace letters i posted? It occurred to me that the way he wrangles wity different astrology problems would be right down your alley.
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 am

Jim wrote:
How have you been? I hope your absence has been from enjoyable things and not health issues.
Thanks for asking Jim. For the past month I have been very busy painting all the inside of my sole rental property, and installing new carpet—at my age it takes me 3 times longer to do work I use to do. I had deadline to meet in order to accommodate a new rental who moved in last Friday. I can’t complain about my health considering certain problem areas. I am anxious for my new blood tests in July to see if my Kidney numbers have improved moving me out of a danger zone. So far, only going by certain improved symptoms, my experience with acupuncture/Chinese Herbs has vastly improved a-lot of my health problems—I am impressed, energy levels are good for this old man. :)

Jim wrote:
BTW did you see the Firebrace letters i posted?
Yes, and enjoyed reading very much-- read em twice and still want to go over them taking notes for follow-up posts. I would love to secure all issues of Spica for us to dissect, and for your personal files. Have you ever seen any Spica articles on Solar Arcs, or know if Firebrace was a proponent of Solar Arcs? The thought crossed my mind Firebrace may have partly used Solar Arcs to rectify the Boyd Chart? Do you know how he and Boyd got hooked-up for Boyd’s/Firebrace book on the Boyd Chart?

Jim wrote:
It occurred to me that the way he wrangles witty different astrology problems would be right down your alley.
Indeed Jim! I would love to get to know Firebrace’s work in detail--in a Virgo manner. :)

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:17 am

SteveS wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:57 am
Jim wrote:
BTW did you see the Firebrace letters i posted?
Yes, and enjoyed reading very much-- read em twice and still want to go over them taking notes for follow-up posts. I would love to secure all issues of Spica for us to dissect, and for your personal files. Have you ever seen any Spica articles on Solar Arcs, or know if Firebrace was a proponent of Solar Arcs? The thought crossed my mind Firebrace may have partly used Solar Arcs to rectify the Boyd Chart? Do you know how he and Boyd got hooked-up for Boyd’s/Firebrace book on the Boyd Chart?
I haven't seen any of my copies of Spica in 40 years, other than the one I found in storage the other day with my research report on converse SLRs. The others probably didn't make it west with me in 1975. Karen Wilkerson and Joan Piszek bought Spica (rights and left-over issues) in '75. Joan is long dead and I haven't heard from Karen in decades so I don't know what happened to them, that avenue probably doesn't exist anymore.

Philip Graves seems to have a large collection in his archives. I don't know if these are for sale or otherwise available:
https://www.astrolearn.com/astrology-bi ... astrology/

I know that at least someone in Spica used Solar Arcs - Marr? probably Roy at least once? - and Roy wrote about them in his letters with optimism.

On Boyd - I think the connection was just that she wrote about the chart in Spica and it caught his attention. One can't understand Firebrace without remembering that he was foremost a soldier, and a high-ranking and important soldier and critical points in military history. He has already written a book, Wars in the Sidereal, about Sidereal ingresses and the British natal charts.

I didn't know there was a Boyd-Firebrace book. I only know of the one Boyd book on the U.S. chart. I have the original red, white, and blue edition in storage somewhere, and this is what's currently advertised:
https://www.amazon.com/True-Horoscope-U ... 01FEPYWM2/
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:39 am

Jim wrote:
Philip Graves seems to have a large collection in his archives. I don't know if these are for sale or otherwise available:
Probably this would be my best chance for laying eyes on the Spica Issues. I will try to contact Philip.

Jim wrote:
I know that at least someone in Spica used Solar Arcs - Marr? probably Roy at least once? - and Roy wrote about them in his letters with optimism.
Interesting! The more I ponder the short astrological history of Solar Arcs, the more I am intrigued. I don’t believe Fagan or Bradley ever mentioned Solar Arcs?

Jim wrote:
I didn't know there was a Boyd-Firebrace book. I only know of the one Boyd book on the U.S. chart.
You are correct Jim. But Boyd writes in her Introduction to her book: “The True Horoscope of the United States:”
PART 11, being the combined efforts of Brigadier RC Firebrace, C.B.E. and myself, is devoted to a miscellaneous series of maps based on events or historical incidences…
It appears RC played a major role in rectifying the Boyd Chart for Helen.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:00 am

She probably was only referring to his testing it after the fact. I don't think there was ever a change in the time she used from when she sent her first article to Spica. (I could be wrong, but I think that's the way the history went. I'm going on about 50 years of memory.)
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:36 pm

Was Helen Boyd a converted Siderealist?

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm

SteveS wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:36 pm
Was Helen Boyd a converted Siderealist?
I don't recall her work appearing any way but Sidereal, going from memory.
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:22 am

Noel Tyl, who has written a very definitive book on Solar Arc's writes from his book Solar Arcs:
This is very important about procedure and interpretation using the system of Solar Arcs. Since we are working with a generalization of one degree = one year, our orb for the Solar Arc is really one degree or one year, and we can divide that as six months for the arc’s application (very strong) to an aspect with the natal planet or point and six months for the arc’s separation (not as strong). We then will see, time and time and time again, that Secondary Progressed Moon can refine the specific time of arc completion and, above all, there will almost invariably be a major transit to trigger the suggestion of the Solar Arc.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Arena » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:12 am

Just as I was looking at the solar arcs in my son's chart I thought of the retrograde planets. The automatic solar arc movement in SF does not account for any retrograde motion of the planets within the solar arcs. Should we do so manually, or only stick with forward motion?

F.ex. in his chart Saturn is Rx at the time of birth and moves retro for almost two months after his birth ... or about 2°. Venus is also retro at his birth and moves about 8° backwards after his birth before going forward again. I myself also have three planets Rx at birth and wonder if I should count for that in solar arcs.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:47 am

Arena wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:12 am
Just as I was looking at the solar arcs in my son's chart I thought of the retrograde planets. The automatic solar arc movement in SF does not account for any retrograde motion of the planets within the solar arcs. Should we do so manually, or only stick with forward motion?
Solar arcs are directions, not progressions. Individual planet positions don't matter. Everything moves at the same rate, and Sun doesn't retrograde.
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Arena » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:11 pm

Yes I know the Sun and Moon don't, but was rather thinking about the other planets that do retrograde... but I guess the principle of directions means it is always forward.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:14 pm

Arena wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:11 pm
Yes I know the Sun and Moon don't, but was rather thinking about the other planets that do retrograde... but I guess the principle of directions means it is always forward.
Yes. Or, technically, that all points of the chart whatsoever move at the same rate.

This could BTW be retrograde, since "the same rate" allows that it could be a negative rate. This is what you get, for example, when you do converse solar arcs.

Another way to say this is that the distance between any two directed planets should never change from their separation in the natal chart.
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:20 am

In the last 6 months, I have been doing some serious research with Solar Arcs (SA) with my life and other close people in my life who have AA rated timed births. It is becoming obvious to me Solar Arcs are a very important astrological natural law which, at few times, are writing important scripts in our lives particularly with angular hits!

If you are a serious student of Astrology, there is no doubt in my mind a most important book on Solar Arcs is Noel Tyl’s book: Solar Arcs. It should be on the bookshelves of every serious student of Astrology, imo.
It is also becoming obvious to me Solar Arcs is a very modern astrological development. Noel Tyl did not publish his book on Solar Arcs until 2001. Hence, the main thrust of the modern development of Solar Arcs was post the ending era of Cyril Fagan (1971), the father of Sidereal Astrology. I am certain given enough time in their lives, Cyril Fagan and his colleagues would have certainly recognized the vast importance of Solar Arcs in the lives of individuals.

Certain Astrologers in Europe became aware of the potential importance of Solar Arcs before astrologers in the United States. Ebertin and his German cosmological schools (1930s) played a very important part in the development of Solar Arcs with their recognition each individual is born with their own different Directional rate of Solar Arching all the important factors in their Natal Chart. Depending on which Sign of the Zodiac we were born into dictates our individual Solar Arc Directional rate between 57-61 minutes of Arc. Nowadays, the Computer and most modern astrological programs automatically calculates our precise Solar Arc Directional Rates. More later...

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:37 am

Thank you Steve.
I was planning to order the book and will do so.
Regards,
Flo

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:54 am

Flo wrote:
I was planning to order the book and will do so.
Great Flo, there are a couple issues in the book I wanted to ask another astrologer their opinions. And after you read Noel's book post your thoughts. Noel mentions in his book the Danish astrologer Irene Christensen. Are you familiar with any of Christensen's astrological work?

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by FlorencedeZ. » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:28 am

Hi Steve,
I don't know the Danish astrologer. Is she a Sidereal astrologer?

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:03 am

I just posted the following in another thread but realized it would be better here...
SteveS wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:39 am
Arena wrote and asked:
BTW you seem to be using a totally different rate for the SA than I am. I am using SA in Long with SF - what are your settings? What is your rate for "chart angle progression" and "rate for primary directions"?
Arena, With SF I get the exact date for your SA MC 180 NATAL MARS on Mat 23 2008, confirmed with two different options for calculating with SF exacts dates for SA hits. What exact date do you get with your SA MC 180 NATAL MARS??? Maybe we should compare our SF methods/options for calculating exact SA dates?
There are two methods of calculating Solar Arc Directions in common use. One is called Classic and the other Modern by most people writing about them who bother to acknowledge there is more than one technique. I believe both are available in Solar Fire and other calculation programs. Supposedly the Classic has been around pretty much since the dawn of astrology, and the Modern since the 1930s. Can't tell you which technique is which. Don't have time to research it.
Generally "SA" is the commonly used abbreviation for Saturn. The common abbreviation for Solar Arc Directions is "SAD" and the two techniques are identified by "SAD-C" and "SAD-M".

Perhaps you guys might find the above information useful.

Florence see Irene Christensen Instituttet She has a book available in English titled "The Precise Astrological Prediction - A Presentation of Kundig's Method"

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:12 am

JSAD, I can't find anything in SF (and am not aware of anything otherwise) about the two solar arc methods. Can you say more?
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 am

Nope. I tried to find something about Solar Arcs on the net since Steve is so excited about them, which is where I found out there are two techniques, one very old and one more modern, no explanations of which is what, and then a bunch of woo-woo crap and gave up and went to look for Llewellyn.

But since Steve and Arena appear to be using different techniques, I think there must be two techniques.
I found this on alabe which is Solar Fire's distributor. https://alabe.com/solararc.html "arc-openings" Blergh.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:55 am


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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:57 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:28 am
"arc-openings" Blergh.
"Arc-openings," as blerghy as they sound, are at least based on sound principles. They just look weird when described. A few weeks ago (maybe it was on this thread) I wrote about them without using that term.

I consider the following to be solidly established but (caveat) not everything in the following list are of equal strength or importance, and probably none of them is quite as important as things we rely on most like aspects. Anyway, here's the list of things I'm ready to vouch for:

* Midpoints are valid points in a chart, partaking of the nature of the two connected planets.
* Midpoints meaningfully aspect planets and other midpoints.
* Only the 45° series of aspects has been established as meaningful for midpoint aspects to planets or other midpoints (with the 0 - 90 - 180 being a notch stronger and more assertive than the 45 - 135). Orbs are small (I would say never more than 1°, with preference for closer).

Now, back to "arc-openings" ... These are just ways to see aspects of midpoints to midpoints AND (much stronger) to find times when multiple solar arcs are exact at the same time.

For example, on a 90° sort, I have the following planet-pair distances in my chart. (I've put the real distance in parentheses to compare to the 90° sort version.)

Moon-Venus 64°29' (244°29')
Moon-Pluto 64°42' (154°42')
Sun-Moon 64°56' (154°56)
Mercury-Sun 65°07' (335°07')

The really useful thing this tells us is that when my solar arc is about 64° (which is roughly at age 64), I will have all at the same time four solar arc directions:
d Moon to r Venus
d Moon to r Pluto
d Sun to r Moon
d Mercury to r Sun

That's not controversial. "Equal openings" are useful for finding, at a glance, when multiple directions mature all at once.

The more subtle part is that have Moon-Venus, Moon-Pluto, Sun-Moon, and Mercury-Sun all have the same elongation is that I have several natal midpoints aspecting each other. Some people consider these active in a natal chart all the time, others consider them coming alive when something like a solar arc direction sets them off (in fact, that's probably the most used predictive tool of Cosmobiologists).

Having Moon-Venus, Moon-Pluto, Sun-Moon, and Mercury-Sun elongations the same means that there is a simultaneous activation of the following natal midpoint structures:

Mo = Su/Ve = Su/Pl
Su = Mo/Me

So these four directions would be interpreted not only as Moon-Venus, Moon-Pluto, Sun-Moon, and Mercury-Sun, but as activating Mo = Su/Ve = Su/Pl and Su = Mo/Me.
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:25 pm

Thanks for the explanation. Do you know which method of solar arcs this is? Classic or Modern?
I wonder if the difference is calculating from actual solar motion vs using the Naibod (mean solar motion.)

When I said "arc-openings" Blergh, I was saying "jargon" Blergh. Can't we try to use plain language instead of (trying to) make astrology more esoteric and difficult?

I found Llewellyn. He just mentions Directions in the dictionary. No help there.

I give up. I was trying to help Steve and Arena sort out why their calculations are not coming out the same, and trying to get people to stop using "SA" to mean something other than "Saturn" when we already have perfectly good abbreviations for Solar Arcs.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:44 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:25 pm
Thanks for the explanation. Do you know which method of solar arcs this is? Classic or Modern?
No. I'm not convinced there is more than one, but willing to be shown. There are different levels of carefulness on the rate, according to the article you posted (rounding to a degree rounding to Naibod - useful when you're working old school from a table in a book - or using the actual solar arc).
When I said "arc-openings" Blergh, I was saying "jargon" Blergh. Can't we try to use plain language instead of (trying to) make astrology more esoteric and difficult?
I vote "yes."
I found Llewellyn. He just mentions Directions in the dictionary. No help there.

One of the things Firebrace suggested I take up as a research project - and I never did - was exploring the different proposed methods of direction. I know in my early Tropical days there were popular systems of moving everything 4°/year, everything 7°/year, etc. I'm not optimistic, but I did get reminded when I typed Roy's letters that he'd suggested this.
I give up. I was trying to help Steve and Arena sort out why their calculations are not coming out the same, and trying to get people to stop using "SA" to mean something other than "Saturn" when we already have perfectly good abbreviations for Solar Arcs.
Agreed on SA! - On the other, without having tracked closely, my two best guesses are (1) somebody is estimating 1° a year instead of calculating, or (2) there is confusion between solar arc directions themselves vs. using the solar arc rate for secondary progression of angles - that seemed to be implied in the last interchange. (The two give identical MCs but different Ascendants.)
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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:32 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:44 pm
Agreed on SA! - On the other, without having tracked closely, my two best guesses are (1) somebody is estimating 1° a year instead of calculating, or (2) there is confusion between solar arc directions themselves vs. using the solar arc rate for secondary progression of angles - that seemed to be implied in the last interchange. (The two give identical MCs but different Ascendants.)
When I said
Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:25 pm
Do you know which method of solar arcs this is? Classic or Modern? I wonder if the difference is calculating from actual solar motion vs using the Naibod (mean solar motion.)
that's what I meant.
There's also two options, one using the motion of the MC to move everything else, and the other using the motion of the ASC to move everything else. I know Solar Fire offers both options.

I found it - you, the cosmobiologists and the Uranians are all using the "Classic" method. From alabe:
"These schools look at the arc openings between every pair of points, even when the openings aren’t any of the standard aspects. They concede that while aspects may have a stronger effect, any other kind of arc opening can also assume importance if it is repeated in the chart. "

About the other "modern" method: "Some astrologers treat them much like progressions, noting when solar-arc planets enter new houses or signs, and when they make aspects to natal planets.

When you use aspects from solar-arc-directed planets in this way, one peculiar thing happens. Around the age of 30 each of the solar-arc planets and other points in the chart makes an exact 30-degree aspect to its own position at birth."

This "modern" method is the one that has only been in use since around the 1930s.

So I think that sorts out everything I couldn't figure out except why Steve and Arena are getting different results.

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Re: Solar Arc Directions

Post by SteveS » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:57 pm

Jim wrote:
Some people consider these active in a natal chart all the time, others consider them coming alive when something like a solar arc direction sets them off (in fact, that's probably the most used predictive tool of Cosmobiogists).
Exactly! The Cosmobiologists in Germany in order to define the ‘cosmic state’ of a Solar Arc hit to points in the Natal always used midpoint analysis for Solar Arc hits. For example: If they saw a Solar Arc aspect to r. MC, they would always look at the ‘cosmic state’ of the MC with midpoint analysis (direct & indirect) involved with the MC. They would also analyze the 'cosmic state' of the Solar Arc factor. For example: Arena is under a Solar Arc Neptune to her Natal MC. The German Cosmobiologists would carefully analyze the midpoint structures of both Arena's Natal Neptune and her Natal MC.

Jupe wrote:
was trying to help Steve and Arena sort out why their calculations are not coming out the same, and trying to get people to stop using "SA" to mean something other than "Saturn" when we already have perfectly good abbreviations for Solar Arcs.
Thanks Jupe. It doesn’t matter to me what abbreviation we use for Solar Arcs on this forum. The main reason I am using SA for Solar Arcs is Arena tells me she is using SF to calculate Solar Arcs, and I know Jim uses SF.

Jim wrote:
On the other, without having tracked closely, my two best guesses are (1) somebody is estimating 1° a year instead of calculating, or (2) there is confusion between solar arc directions themselves vs. using the solar arc rate for secondary progression of angles - that seemed to be implied in the last interchange. (The two give identical MCs but different Ascendants.)
I could be wrong, but I think in the ‘Dynamic’ mode of SF using ‘Directions to Radix’ box, all Solar Arcs are automatically calculated with the program using one’s on individual Solar Arc rate. There is only one person on this forum who could maybe prove this, and that is Jim.

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