Solar Arc Analysis

General Discussion on Transit & Progression matters for which a specific forum does not exist
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ODdOnLifeItself
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Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:01 am

I recently was going through the Solar Arcs thread here (yeah, the one with 6 pages) and thought it might be interesting to do a little test for the major solar arcs, as mentioned in one of SteveS' posts in the above-mentioned thread. (He mentions that the idea came from Noel Tyl, who was one of my mentors. I was given a scholarship into Noel's Master Class, though I left, due to let's say "creative differences" [more Sun-Eris, Jim? ;) ] Alexander Marr has written that a directional system has to have orbs of less than a quarter of a degree (stated as under 12' of arc), or it's likely that one could find relevant aspects in the lifetime event list, using ANYONE ELSE'S chart. ie. random results, but seeming confirmation.)

Because of this, I thought it might be interesting to look at my lifetime list of Solar Arcs, for times when SA planets conjoin the Angles of the natal chart, as a little spot-check. Noel (RIP) had mentioned that dramatic events normally transpire when these major alignments happen. Of course, if I use two years' time (+/- 1°orb), we'd very likely find some event that somehow could relate to the factors, so I am only examining the solar arcs for events/circumstances that happen relatively closer in time to the partility of the direction.

Without further ado...

SA Sun conjunct natal Asc: May 1970 - the main thing that happened around this time is that my Brother Darin was born 2 months later. (ie. about 10' of arc)

SA Jupiter conjunct natal MC: February 1982 - three months after this (+ 15' of arc), I graduate from a local junior college (where I had won two scholarships, due to my 1st Place state (Illinois) math award)

SA Pluto conjunct IC: January 1987 - to me, this would seem symbolically to relate to the loss of my Grandmother (my adoptive Mother), however the death and issues that led to it, didn't actually even start until almost a whole year later, so I am discounting it. I can't remember any other intense or traumatic event +/- 3 months to this date.

SA Mercury conjunct Asc: November 1992 - less than 2 months before this, my twin daughters were born.

SA Uranus conjunct IC: July 1997 - I can't think of any major events around this time. I certainly didn't move nor have any unexpected changes relating to home/family (or work, relating to the opposition to MC).

SA Venus conjunct IC: October 2006 - my daughter was born about 3 months after this.

SA Node conjunct IC: November 2015 - my Wife had moved her (successful) jewelry store from the artsy district in town to somewhere closer to home and was only going in by appointment, so long-story-short, she was at home a LOT more.

SA Saturn conjunct MC: February 2016 - this is the one (of all on the list) that perplexes me the most. I can't think of anything relating to career/work, my direction/status in life, my parents, or even home/family (the opposition) remotely around this time.

SA Mars conjunct Asc: May 2017 - no personal injury or conflict, nor anything relating to sport or increased expenditure of energy.

Summation: For the ones that appear relevant, the symbolism is sometimes too exact to easily dismiss as coincidence. On the other hand, there are seemingly major alignments where nothing of note happened, or at least nothing that left a lasting impression. Certainly, for Saturn coming to the Midheaven, I would expect something memorable to be going on at that time.

Have others made this type of analysis in their lives?

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by SteveS » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:37 am

James wrote:
Summation: For the ones that appear relevant, the symbolism is sometimes too exact to easily dismiss as coincidence. On the other hand, there are seemingly major alignments where nothing of note happened, or at least nothing that left a lasting impression. Certainly, for Saturn coming to the Midheaven, I would expect something memorable to be going on at that time.
James, I can definitely relate to where you are coming from. It was not until my serious study of Noel’s Solar Arc book that I found what I consider to be a valuable key in determining WHEN/IF the symbolism of a major angular Solar Arc will manifest big-time within a solar years’ time frame, and that has to do with outer planet transits to the Natal. For example: If you had a Solar Mercury to Natal MC without important outer planet symbolism to Natal factors, particularly Natal angles, the major angular Solar Arc symbolism may not manifest.

I also include as most important: "outstanding incident" SSRs combined with Solar Arcs. For example: Take your current SSR with the symbolism of losing to death close family members. Note your Solar Arc Sun partile conjunct your Natal Pluto as a reinforcing possibility how the main events will manifest with your SSR. Solar Arcs need to be analyzed for finer details combining outer planet transits and “outstanding incident” SSR’s, imho. If Noel had studied the importance of “outstanding incident” SSR, I am sure he would have included the technique in his Solar Arc book. I now always look at new SSRs combined with possible important Solar Arcs hits.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Danica » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:57 am

Solar Arc hits with natal planets and angles (dynamic aspects between planets are easier to recognize in experience than the static ones) are operative within 1 degree - from when the aspect begins (applying) until it gets out of orb.

It's important to understand that they represent processes, and within this, usually transpire as sequence of multiple events , rather than a single one instance of experience in time-space that we call 'an event'.

It's most usually so that the focalization of these processes happens during the period when the aspect is closest to the 00*00', which doesn't make it less of a process, nor is it a guarantee that there will be some specific, particular 'event' that can be marked out as such during this time of focalization.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by SteveS » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:47 am

D wrote:
It's important to understand that they represent processes, and within this, usually transpire as sequence of multiple events , rather than a single one instance of experience in time-space that we call 'an event'.
Yes, processes of multiple events are always there manifesting before a major angular solar arc life development/main event. Looking back on my angular Solar Arc hits, I can easily see the processes in detail that led to the main major angular Solar Arc events in my life. Its take age to look back on your angular Solar Arc hits with better clarity, which for me led to a well defined major event for my life. I think Noel got it right: Its important to look closely at the times of major outer planet transits to the Natal, particularly Natal angles, and when you see these partile orb times with outer planet transits, look more closely at what is going on with your Solar Arc Chart. All of our layered charts are working together for our life experiences.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:54 am

Thank you SteveS and Danica for your comments...

I of course, being a Tyl-ian in many respects (though diverging in at least as many other ways), know of his outer planet transit factor in solar arcs. My problem is, in order to study a particular factor, the more isolated it is, the more likely its sole influence will be seen.

When I have a major solar arc aspect, but only have an actual large event when there are transits, it seems a parallel to the following:

If I have a bell that rings (the Solar Arc) when it's time for the dog to go outside; I note that the dog will only go out if I open the door (the outer-planet Transit). My problem is, if the bell doesn't ring, but I still open the door, the dog still goes out. ie. the bell is in no way required, it's technically not even a factor as to whether the dog will go out... Solar Arcs in many ways seem directly analogous.

Re: One year applying, one year separating

I can't see using such large orbs in a directional system. (as with such a large time-frame, there will be relevant-seeming events at some point throughout the 2 years timespan that would seem related to the symbolism, no matter which symbolism it happened to be. Especially, when searching through time periods, one would tend to latch onto SOME relevant event that SEEMS related.)

Again, let me use a hypothetical example... I'm going to use MY EVENTS, but Malcolm X's Solar Arcs for 3/1999->3/2000.

There are only 2 (4th harmonic) Solar Arcs for Malcolm X during that time period:

Uranus conjunct Venus - during that time period *I* suddenly started a new, exciting romantic relationship, liberating *me* from a then-current terrible one
Sun square Saturn - *I* took on more work responsibility in this year and my Father became a personal focus, since we moved in with him for some time

It doesn't matter what year I pick... let's try 1989, with Malcolm X's 1999 solar arcs from above:

Uranus conjunct Venus - during this time *I* met a woman on a computer forum and moved in with her, and suddenly started making a lot more money at this time
Sun square Saturn - during this time *I* started working at the Postal Service and had the additional responsibility of paying all the bills

My current year with Malcolm X's solar arcs:

Uranus conjunct Venus - during this year, *I* suddenly began receiving a work-premium of an unexpected but exciting extra 700 € per month, my wife has had one sudden event after another, whether suddenly having the gall bladder removed, losing her Father, suddenly receiving a work-related compensation, or my setting up a computer website to better show her art
Sun square Saturn - during this time *I* lost a father-figure, my Father-in-Law, and am facing much more responsibility at work, everything having to do with me personally in this year feels HEAVY and I keep weighing myself against what I feel *I* am supposed to be doing

All I can say is, I'm tired of having my life constantly dictated by Malcolm X's 1999 Solar Arcs! lol

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Danica » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:34 am

James, the way you posited the initial post/"inquiry" of this thread implies that the Solar Arcs need (more, further, over and over again) testing in order for us to prove whether they do or do not work.

It's akin to setting off to "find out" is there such a thing as woods, by looking for presence or absence of specific, particular trees at specific, particular locations, and upon not seeing any at some given location concluding that a "proof" toward non-existence of woods themselves, while at encountering a such (a specific tree, at a specific location) not really, actually seeing it for what it is at all, due to failing to understand that a particular tree does not exist by and of itself, but its being is a part (and result of interwoven processes) of the whole pertaining ecosystem.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by SteveS » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:05 am

James, all I really know is relative to my life at the time in my life (July 8 1985), the single most important event occurred in my lifetime, or as Noel puts it: the single most important "Life Development"occurred in my life. This event was primarily timed by partile aspected angular (conjunctions) symbolism with my Solar Arcs, t Saturn partile to my Natal ASCand SSR Mars partile cnj my SSR DSC. These 3 techniques are what I consider the most important astrological techniques to analyze when you see processes developing in your life which you think could lead to life altering things. My huge July 8 1985 event actually started developing with a series of processes that began in Dec 1984. However, I am now beginning to beleive I need to include AH and its angular hits along with the above 3 techniques with major life events :) . All I am saying is: if you don't see major angular symbolism with the 3 above mentioned techniques--more than likely nothing major in life is going to occurr. Of course everyone has their own defintion of "major" life developments pertaining to major life events. Astrological symbolism is all relative to "whats going on" (the processes) in one's immediate living environment, imo, which shape our psychological spheres. Matthew Quellas who was (RIP) one of my main Sidereal Astrology teachers, taught me to weigh potentials for major life developments by the question to yourself: Are there any "out of ordinary" things going on in your immediate environment? If the answer is yes--then better possibilities for major angular symbolism with the above techniques.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:35 am

Danica wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:57 am
Solar Arc hits with natal planets and angles (dynamic aspects between planets are easier to recognize in experience than the static ones) are operative within 1 degree - from when the aspect begins (applying) until it gets out of orb.

It's important to understand that they represent processes, and within this, usually transpire as sequence of multiple events , rather than a single one instance of experience in time-space that we call 'an event'.

It's most usually so that the focalization of these processes happens during the period when the aspect is closest to the 00*00', which doesn't make it less of a process, nor is it a guarantee that there will be some specific, particular 'event' that can be marked out as such during this time of focalization.
This is exactly on point! - I consider it a hallmark of Solar Arc directions, something that simultaneously one of the best and one of the worst things about Solar Arcs (i.e., that makes them most interesting and useful AND that makes them so frustrating).
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:40 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:01 am
Alexander Marr has written that a directional system has to have orbs of less than a quarter of a degree (stated as under 12' of arc), or it's likely that one could find relevant aspects in the lifetime event list, using ANYONE ELSE'S chart. ie. random results, but seeming confirmation.)
The issue of "random" hits is quite important. It's always a struggle in research. In examining an event in a given system, we are (as everyone on this thread knows) looking both for contacts that are sufficiently close and contacts that are symbolically correct. To find something reliable, we need to find a balance on precision vs. elasticity in both of these factors. If we loosen one of them, we have to tighten the other one. In practice, this means that if we use larger orbs, we have to be much more narrow on what contacts we find acceptably descriptive (since there are always enough malefics and near-malefics around to account for any bump of the head); and if, instead, we are more elastic on symbolism, we require narrower orbs.

Integrity of planet symbolism is, of course, key to astrological integrity. So, on the matter of orbs, how narrow is narrow enough?

It helps to keep in mind how common aspects are. The math is slightly different with transits vs. progressions vs. directions because of the number of points used, the different kinds of aspects involved, etc., but the principle is about the same. (Using a 10-planet model, with transits we have 10 transiting factors x 12 natal factors, since we're not usually concerned with transiting angles. With directions, it's 12 moving factors to 12 natal factors. With progressions, it's 12-to-12 plus 66 possible progressed-to-progressed hits.)

For solar arcs, the most common model involves eighth-harmonic aspects. There are eight such aspect points around the circle. Orbs are bilateral (as much on one side as on the other), so this eight doubles to 16. With a 1° orb, a single planet or angle has 16° of the zodiac within which it is within 1° of a single other planet, meaning a single directed planet A will be within 1° of aspect to a single natal planet B 16/360 of the time, or about 4% of the time. With 12 directed factors moving across 12 natal factors, we have 144 of these possible hits meaning that - purely randomly - we expect six aspects at any given moment.

You may already thing this way but, in case it's a new idea, think about it for a moment: Using 45°-multiple aspects with 1°00' orbs, we will, on average, have six Solar Arc directions at any moment in time. (Sometimes we have more, sometimes we have less.) If we allow all of these, we place a very high requirement of symbolic integrity on the aspects themselves: They need to describe the event without much wiggle-room. In practice, what I see myself doing, and tend to see others doing, is that we come up with secondary rules, e.g., "they all work but the closest are the most important." With this rule, we're more impressed with the closest of the (average) six aspects primarily describes the event and the others fill in details or supplement the description (or don't apply); and we're less impressed (or not impressed at all) when only one of the widest identifies the event, especially if the closest ones seem contradictory.

I'm meandering a bit. Hopefully, you can meander with me if I stick close to the trail and don't spin off into the grass too much.

We can immediately simplify this average six aspects at any moment condition by dropping back to 4th harmonic aspects - only counting conjunctions, oppositions, and squares - to reduce the average to about three aspects at a time (which is much more manageable). This is tempting, but most users of Solar Arcs don't find this acceptable. Ebertin quite emphatically used all 8th harmonic aspects indifferently. I find octiles slightly less impactful, but I think it's only my wishful thinking that makes it seem so, justifying my simply rotating to Solar Arcs for a particular date and looking at the 90° dial to eyeball whether I see anything.


The other strategy to narrow how much we have to juggle at a given point in time is to narrow the orb. BTW (to put it all on the table), my own view is that SAs are valid within 1° and, more often than not (but hardly invariably) tend to have their strongest impact when they're within about a month (5-10' orb) of exact; but in hindsight examination of events, this is far too narrow to find the aspects one is hoping to find. Also, I'm at least as much interested in state of mind (psychological state) as I am in an event, so I'm not as picky about whether there is an outside event. (I'm not sold on Noel's idea that Solar Arcs need a trigger, e.g., by a transit: It may be true, it may not. If true, it probably singles out those SAs that seem duds - nothing to trigger them - from the ones that seem astonishingly accurate and well-timed. I simply don't have enough evidence to say this for sure. Ask me in a couple of months when we can look back on how my Saturn-to-Sun and Sun-to-Saturn dual directions have turned out.)

So, on the topic of narrowing the orbs...

As we expect Solar Arcs, using 45° series aspects and 1°00' orbs, to produce about six aspects (on average) at any moment, then cutting that orb to 0°30' cuts that number in half, to about three at a time. This is pretty manageable. A careful reading of Noel's book discloses that what he meant by a 1° orb was, in fact 1° total, or 0°30' on either side. (His examples don't always match that, but it IS what he explicitly said.) Since even Solar Arc aspects seem to follow the "curve" model of aspects - the idea that, once they become effective at all, they gradually become stronger until they peak - I'd have no trouble organizing my Solar Arc experience into the form of, "Yes, they're operative from 1° orb but start to get really serious at 0°30'." In any case, with such a model, we expect only (on average) three aspects at a time.

Or, take Marr's idea of an orb that James quoted: A 0°12' orb (0.2°) gives us an average of one aspect at a time. It's a strange threshold, if he calculated it exactly, though. The odds at 0°12' or for an average of 1.28 aspects at a time ("about 1"). The place where the odds become exactly 1 aspect on average is 0°09'. Or, the place where the odds are for an average of 1.5 aspects at any given time ("anything closer than this averages 'about 1'") is is 0°14'. (That might be the target Marr was aiming for.)

That's all nit-picking, of course. Aspects operate more widely than that. We should, however, at least not be too impressed with how many aspects we find for an event, and should be impressed more by how fitting the aspects are for an event.


One more thing on the question of events not happening exactly at peak orb moments: It helps to distinguish between climate and weather. This distinction helps us in so many way. Climate means the range of expected possible weather conditions (with only the most extreme falling outside the range), while weather is the immediate weather conditions or weather events within that climate. For example, Southern California has a climate that tends to have temperatures in the 52°-to-74° range but with a record low of 36° and record high of 96°. Nonetheless, one can generally expect the weather on a typical Los Angeles November day to run in the mid-50s to mid-70s temperature range. Anything outside this range counts as an unusual event.

Other intervening factors - varying conditions outside of the immediate average climate - trigger these unusual events. These analogize in astrology to both life conditions and other astrological contributors.

I most often use the climates vs. weather analogy in contrasting the innate pattern within the natal horoscope (one's personal climate) to predictive phenomena (transits, progressions, returns, etc.) that trigger weather. Usually one's "weather" will be within bounds of one's climate (one's innate nature), but the most extreme weather contributors (equivalent to a polar vortex or off-coast hurricane) can hurl personal weather outside the usual climate bounds.

We can apply the metaphor to many other things, though. My most common: The SSR sets the climate of the year with SLRs tending to operate as "high and low pressure areas" creating shorter term "weather" phenomena during that year. (As with Southern California's climate, a good solar return means that "bad weather patterns" during the year will never be as severe as they would be in Minnesota; etc.)

With regard to Solar Arcs, it seems to me that once the aspect comes into about 1° orb, there is a two-year temporary shift in climate conditions. (One can also call this "a vulnerability to a certain kind of event.") Within that "shifted climate," other weather conditions have impact: Other directions (that might be closer at the moment) have impact, or other astrological conditions (transits, returns) mark shifting weather conditions.

Personal life conditions apply to this, too: A sudden increase in personal stress alters how one responds to things. A person wandering into your life suddenly increases the opportunity for a new relationship. A pandemic or its easing modulates the conditions around finding a job.

As astrologers, we'd like to think that all of these shifting life conditions will show in the horoscope, too, but we already know that some shifts align with minor astrological techniques that we don't usually consult. I think it isn't important to try to consult them all because it takes our attention away from the person who has the horoscope: It's functionally better to allow "shifting life circumstances" to, themselves, be factors in our weather forecasting.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:55 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:01 am
Have others made this type of analysis in their lives?
I have, and it hasn't been too impressive. Part of this is that I just haven't had that many such crossings in my life. Here, though, is the list of conjunctions:

d PLUTO co. r ASC 2/5/85.
Nothing as close as you were checking, though events in the prior November and the subsequent March and then throughout the summer set my life on a new path for several years.

d JUPITER co. r ASC 4/14/13
d URANUS co. r ASC 7/24/13
Nothing exactly at the first time, though an event within a month of the second: My last physically published book, Pearls of Wisdom, came out in August. More important, I think, is that this entire two-year period from 2012-2014 was an apex of status and position as I substantially reformulated and delivered a new generation of material within an organization I had founded a decade and a half earlier.

So, these fit not as precise events but as descriptive of larger time-frames of nothing less than half a degree orb and really absorbing the whole two-year orb. Within that time, there were highly specific events that would fit but, more importantly, two-year periods were marked out. It's not a matter of birth time imprecision because, even if I didn't already know that my birth certificate time is accurate nearly to the second, these events spread out pretty evenly, bilaterally, around the exact aspect date.

Just to add more events, lets flip this and show direct angles to natal planets. This gives a lot more hits.

d ASC co. r SUN 1/7/75
Events fitting this that really come to memory fell in the trailing year. In June '75 I moved to California and arrived as something of a Sidereal community celebrity. Anything attributable earlier was comparatively minor or contributing. (I did rise to minor importance in the Indianapolis astrology community and was an initial board member of the newly founded Indiana astrological association.)

d ASC co. r NEPTUNE 11/17/83
Nothing specific but, again, marking out a stage. I left ACS in San Diego about February or March '83 and returned to LA with an idea for a new business that never took off: I learned that I loved doing the fun part (this was a computer user support and education business at a time nobody was doing it yet) but didn't like doing anything that involved bringing in business or actually running a business, so I flopped around fuzzily for a year.

Oh, wait - something did happen in November, though I'm not sure it was Neptune. This was also my one-pass Saturn return and, on the exact day of t Saturn co. r Saturn, I gave the ballroom keynote lecture at the South West Astrology Conference (SWAC). Clearly a Saturn Return apex, but not recognizably Neptunian.

d MC co. r URANUS 6/6/86
d MC co. r JUPITER 9/15/86
Nothing recalled right around these times, but it was a broad period of a couple of years in which I was on a rise professionally and as #2 officer of an international fraternal organization I had helped reorganize.

d ASC co. r SATURN 5/20/97
Again, the center of a fitting (really rough) period, but nothing exactly in May or June. My longest-term relationship came to a crashing end the prior November. I broke my heel badly in September and was convalescent for nearly six months after. The intervening time was more of a struggle repairing the friendship and working relationship with the mate from whom I'd separated and repairing impact on an organization. I started producing a twice-year journal (started working on it in 1/97) that came out in March as a personal high point. My business (private work injury law practice started in '87-'88) was winding down as planned, closing the following year, with the mixed good-bad of the expiration of the business vs. having a lot of cash piled up that I lived off of (and eventually wiped out) while convalescing and then in subsequent years as I reinvented myself professionally.

d ASC co. r MERCURY 10/7/99
Nothing clear to me that stands out from MANY years either side. For several years before and after, I was writing and publishing a very great deal, including a twice-yearly journal and several books, translations of ancient documents, etc., and in almost non-stop study mode. It was also the center of a time that, while reinventing myself professionally, I worked a lot of clerical temp jobs, as a kind of Mercury transient.

d ASC co. r VENUS 2/4/14
There were so many other purely Venus moments that could have been picked in earlier or later years, that this one seems strange. No exact hits at all. Marion had been living with me for several years already. It was early in a year that eventuated in my leaving my home of 40 years (12/14) as we went off to find a new one (a very hard time emotionally). A two year project did come to the head with a small launch in March - not too far out - but it really had nothing obvious to do with Venus (Jupiter or Sun would have fit for success, Uranus or Pluto for the magnitude of shift, but Venus not particularly unless we generically say I was happy about it).

d MC co. r PLUTO 11/16/14
This is the best, squarest hit. We were in the process of having to leave the home I'd lived in for 40 years, bring permanent shifts in and (a year later) an ultimate end to the longest friendship of my life, with significant, almost traumatic uprooting. This had been in the planning for months without my knowing about it, came into awareness in October IIRC, was in full, uncomfortable, difficult process in November, and climaxed on exiting at the end of December (and some spill-over into January-February). So this one was utterly on point.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:17 am

First off, thanks, Jim for such a detailed response.

I don't know if anyone has said it, but you think like a mathematician. (and I mean that in a good way)

Your list of solar arcs appears pretty much hit and miss...as you have found them as well. These "aspectual diaries" are quite interesting, especially with the background and an intimation of how YOU experienced it, which is often crucial to which aspects are truly appropriate. Excellent presentation.

The way you approached the "filling of the zodiac" by planets and multiplied by aspectual points to calculate how exact we need to be, is extremely reminiscent of Marr's reasoning on this very matter. Obviously, the wider we open it up, the more likely we are to introduce chance into the equation and more quickly be facing giant aspectual lists that could often be used to justify anything that could have happened, with seemingly correct astrological factors.

It's interesting to me to be thinking about Solar Arcs and testing things, because this was perhaps my largest "bone of contention" with Noel. In his books, I found faulty rectifications, perfectly justified by solar arcs! ;)

We both did Pat Nixon rectifications, but received very different results. Using his time, most of the systems requiring tight birthtimes absolutely fail in terms of fitting aspects (within orb) at events. ie. in my opinion, it can not be correct Starkman agrees 100% that his rectification could not possible be right. My thoughts are, if a Regulus Award winning astrologer can use solar arcs masterfully to arrive at the wrong result, then solar arcs too "dangerous" to be considered reliable generally. (or something about the approach needs major modification)

Re: Processes (Danica)

Yes, this makes perfect sense and I know on some level you are likely right. What I am looking for is analytical efficacy and my experience with solar arcs felt more obfuscating than illuminating. Marr was emphatic that the system is fictional and only appears to work, because the orb-leniency would allow appropriate solar arcs, using the wrong chart. (which I can corroborate is possible and on some level demonstrated above)

I am somewhere in the middle... I'll admit they might just work, but try as I might, I don't find them truly useful. While several astrologers I respect use(d) solar arcs, I note they normally are allowing quite wide orbs, which prevents us from really KNOWING. ;)

If I have solar arc Neptune conjoining the MC, I might very well be on the precipice of making a wrong career move (likely wrong "real world wise" and totally right in terms of ideals and spiritual considerations!!!!!), but what am I specifically to do with this info. If it is a process over a large swath of time, I could be facing 3 various milestones and what seems so right in June, might be disastrous advice to follow in July.

I have a meeting, so I will post this now and continue when I can get back on.

Thanks so much for your attention and thoughts on the matter Jim, SteveS, and Danica. You're helping me formulate my thoughts and streamline a few things, perhaps without even knowing it...

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:17 am
Your list of solar arcs appears pretty much hit and miss...as you have found them as well.
No, that's not a fair expression of how I found them. I found most to be quite descriptive provided we recognize that they are showing two-year processes rather that decisive events. (To me, the event is just one detail of the more important ongoing process.)
It's interesting to me to be thinking about Solar Arcs and testing things, because this was perhaps my largest "bone of contention" with Noel. In his books, I found faulty rectifications...
Oh, something you share to draw you closer to each other :lol: [I'm ribbing you.]

Yes, despite my abiding affection for my old friend, I was aghast that he would accept a rectification of Queen Victoria's chart and then use it as his only real example of the "first the Solar Arc, then a progressed Moon trigger, then a transit" idea. But his general presentation was overall excellent IMHO.
We both did Pat Nixon rectifications, but received very different results.
That's a birth certificate time expressed in a 5-minute unit, so I can't imagine why anyone would set off to rectify it.

Using the given time, we find such things as transiting Pluto partile conjunct Dsc for her wedding, transiting Sun minutes from her Ascendant when she became First Lady, and Pluto half a degree from her MC for her death. That's all quite good (without digging into her return charts)!

My first impression would be to question the judgment of any astrologer who felt the need to rectify the time. I think this speaks more about an astrologers need to muck with a given birth time than it speaks about any particular technique.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:06 am

Re: "No, that's not a fair expression of how I found them."

I meant in terms of finding events tight in time, relative to Solar Arc aspect partility. In terms of processes that appear to be running over a much larger swath of time, you did find them relatively descriptive/indicative.

Re: Pat Nixon

To answer your question as to why one would feel the need to tightly rectify a chart that already seems in the ballpark. As I have mentioned, I am studying many additional methods where a tight birthtime is required. In these cases, it's "close but no cigar" when an approximate birthtime is used. As an example, for the charts I (or Isaac, for that matter) have rectified, the Age Harmonics are EERILY spot-on, as SteveS is demonstrating/noting in his personal chart. Using the B.C. time and analzying the Age Harmonics gives RANDOM results. Let's cut to the chase...if i had a client and in the normal methods, most things check out (as per events), then I'd likely run with that time. HOWEVER, for my serious study of these other methods, that time would likely be unusable without syncing it to the appropriate Topocentric Primary Directions, which requires significant effort/time to find and using many other methods, to confirm.

Re: "...mucking with the birth time..."

Firmly disagree. If one is trying to examine age harmonics/TPDs/PSSR aspects, but in general uses a B.C. time that's not rectified, they'll likely be shooting in the dark, with a broken trigger-finger. (with the obvious exception of those B.C. times where they're already within seconds of the absolute time, which is normally not the case, I will personally guarantee that)

Re: "Oh, something you share to draw you closer to each other :lol: [I'm ribbing you.]"

LOL :) Perhaps we had already gotten too close and I got to see what's behind OZ's curtain. ;) I loved Noel. He inspired me greatly and in many different ways. Many of his analysis methods are still main go-to's when I am reading for someone. But looking at everything from Noel as a whole, it's like ordering a surprise bundle of gems from China...there will be some incredibly good pieces, a lot of very usable stuff, but a few pieces where one thinks, that can go right in the dumpster. ;) [Any opinion on the Quindecile, Jim?] ;)

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:17 am

Hi Steve,

Re: "This event was primarily timed by partile aspected angular (conjunctions) symbolism with my Solar Arcs..."

I believe we have stumbled upon the rub in this circumstance. (in terms of solar arcs as processes, as related by Jim and Danica) If we accept this as a given (for discussion's sake ;) ), there is still useful astrological symbolism to be seen for a particular swath of time. As far as actually pinpointing a particular time within that much larger swath of time (one to two years' of time, depending on author/adherent) for expected events, it's admittedly weak.

It seems an appropriate analogy would be an electron microscope with coarse and fine adjustment. In this analogy, solar arcs and raw transits would be like a coarse adjustment. Other methods (of which there are considerable) would be more like the fine adjustment.

In Noel's Master Course, I was to take a chart from my collection and basically do a work-up of it, using ultimately his methods. One of the first steps was, as I am sure you know, to look for major times in a person's life that are indicated by the movement of planets by solar arc to the next available angle. At that time, it made the most sense to take people that I knew extremely well, so that I had information about what happened in their lives and when. Advancing the possible planets to the next angle extremely often just appeared to be downright wrong. When I tried to use these in my short-readings (always more than 18 a day, on weekends at the Readery here in Munich), I got more looks of bewilderment (ie. "what you talkin' 'bout, Willis?") than confirmation. I just quit referencing them. Fast-forward to my meeting Isaac (Starkman) and working together on a few things and we decided to do a few tests with solar arcs. I was still undecided, but admittedly approached it sceptically, as I already felt a hit-and-miss element that was impossible for me to deny. There were extremely stressful periods with wonderful Venus and Jupiter solar arcs as well as extremely positive events, bombarded with Mars and Saturn aspects. Normally, if the astrology looks extremely trying, the actual life is, as well.

Re: "All I am saying is: if you don't see major angular symbolism with the 3 above mentioned techniques--more than likely nothing major in life is going to occur."

That might very well be, I am just (from my opinion) sceptical that there is anything definitively demonstrated by solar arcs, that aren't (generally) more clearly stated astrologically using other methods. [If you HAD to choose between solar arcs and SSR's, which one are you going to choose?]
There are bound to be exceptions to this, but as I showed above, Malcolm X's 1999 solar arcs could APPEAR to be working famously in MY life, in that year or many others for that matter. ie. what are we really looking at, when we see apparent confirmation?

Your Matthew Quellas paraphrased quote imho is completely sound. In working systems, if one's life is in flux somehow, we should expect angular activity. This is one of the major warning signs that the birthtime is wrong, when we have many events, but very little angular activity whatsoever, at these events. If we can already tell it's wrong, I'm all for doing what we can to make it right. (and as I mentioned, since I like studying the Age Harmonics, often the TPDs and PSSR aspects, ballpark accuracy sadly just won't cut it)

Since solar arcs and topocentric primary directions are both directional systems (though only one is primary motion, ie. ROTATION-based, both are on the order of 0° 5' of arc per month), to me it seems intuitive that the magnitude of orbs allowed should be relatively similar... If this WERE the case, we would only be looking at solar arcs within 0° 11' for the conjunction/opposition and 0° 6' for all other aspects. I am hoping that this shows why it feels to me that a 1°total orb (though many are using +/- 1°) appears crazy. Where the primary directions, most assuredly, are linked to events, if we allow the "process model" for solar arcs, then of course the orb would be different, since we're looking at entirely different things. ie. plus or minus 1-1/2 month, on average, compared to plus or minus 6 months (+/- 1 year for many) for solar arcs.

In summation, I can't say solar arcs aren't working, I am only saying they're not (in a useful way) working for me. ;)

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Danica » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:56 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:17 am

In summation, I can't say solar arcs aren't working, I am only saying they're not (in a useful way) working for me. ;)
Of course, for you, and therefore - let's have a whole thread on how we (everyone engaged in the life of this forum) need to be "testing" their existence and workability over & over again - for, what else there is or may be to astrology, other than the looking-for-a-particular-tree in-a-specific-location, right?

Let me repeat what has already been said, in this same thread, in hopes that it may this time stand a chance of being somewhat grasped (I'll put in bold the part that, obviously, needs emphasis):
The way you posited the initial post/"inquiry" of this thread implies that the Solar Arcs need (more, further, over and over again) testing in order for us to prove whether they do or do not work.

It's akin to setting off to "find out" is there such a thing as woods, by looking for presence or absence of specific, particular trees at specific, particular locations, and upon not seeing any at some given location concluding that a "proof" toward non-existence of woods themselves, while at encountering a such (a specific tree, at a specific location) not really, actually seeing it for what it is at all, due to failing to understand that a particular tree does not exist by and of itself, but its being is a part (and result of interwoven processes) of the whole pertaining ecosystem.
Edit/P.S.
My point here being: they certainly are working. The fact that you don't understand how they work is clear enough from everything you posted on the subject so far.
The tone and manner in which you present your own absence of understanding and with it also clear absence of any desire to understand --- as if this is some scientific pursuit endeavor from your side --- is both annoying (being so time-and-energy consuming) and insulting.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:57 am

Danica wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:56 am
The tone and manner in which you present your own absence of understanding and with it also clear absence of any desire to understand --- as if this is some scientific pursuit endeavor from your side --- is both annoying (being so time-and-energy consuming) and insulting.
Not to mention this isn't a free forum. Every time anyone posts, it costs real money for both bandwidth and for storage space. You're using someone else's money to teach ("share") your pet techniques, which you have now said you know are off topic here, and try to justify your behavior.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by SteveS » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:57 am

James wrote:
As far as actually pinpointing a particular time within that much larger swath of time (one to two years' of time, depending on author/adherent) for expected events, it's admittedly weak.
I agree, and that is why I just sit back and see what my life circumstances (processes) are scheduling for me on the calendar. Normally, I can tell if significant processes are happening outside of my direct control, I can go to my astrology and pretty much determine if the processes will developed into an “outstanding incident/event for my life, relative to my mode of living. Lots of times in life these involve meetings with other people which I did not schedule. It takes another person to tango, malefically or beneficially. :)
James wrote:
It seems an appropriate analogy would be an electron microscope with coarse and fine adjustment. In this analogy, solar arcs and raw transits would be like a coarse adjustment. Other methods (of which there are considerable) would be more like the fine adjustment.
Good analogy, I agree.
James wrote:
One of the first steps was, as I am sure you know, to look for major times in a person's life that are indicated by the movement of planets by solar arc to the next available angle.
Exactly! I have a colleague who has been putting in a lot of work (years of processes) developing his own independent business. It’s a sound practical idea. He knows me as an astrologer and keeps asking me when his business dream will manifest for him. I tell him—I don’t know for sure but there is high probability in about 2 years it will blossom. Solar Arcs allow me to talk in terms of high probability when I see in 2 years his Solar Arc Natal Jupiter will conjunct his Natal MC. I could not have told him this unless I understood his well-defined Business Practices he has implemented in his life.
James asked:
[If you HAD to choose between solar arcs and SSR's, which one are you going to choose?]
Definitely SSRs, particularly the kind with tight angular symbolism. Jim taught me this tool is the best forecasting tool we have, and Fagan proved with his historical work into astrology, the SSR was the # 1 go to chart for helping making major decisions about things. I only rely on Solar Arcs when I suspect something is building- up with clearly seen processes that a person thinks may turn into something major. For example: I have a friend who keep telling me his business could explode and come unraveled any day due to specific possible circumstances. He asked me if I saw a time frame when this may happen, and told me if this happened it would be a huge event in his life. I took Solar Arcs and looked into the future for him and saw his Natal MC Solar ARC 180 HIS Natal Mars next year in late 2022. If he continues to tell me if business things are still are still unraveling as a slow continuing process, I will look more closely at his other charts. I only use Solar Arcs when I suspect a major life event/development has good probability of manifesting. This is the core teaching (major life developments) that I summarized from Noel’s book. When I suspect a major life development may be developing and the major life angular symbolism is unclear to me, I will then look to the outer planet transits to natal angles to possibility define more for me. For example: Using hindsight in Dec of 1984 I saw the potential for a major life development starting a process. The first chart I would have turned to would have been my Solar Arcs. I then would have seen in 1985 a partile Paran of my Natal Mars & Mercury coming to my MC & ASC. But, I would not have been able to see clearly how this angular Solar Arc Paran may manifest as a major life-development. But, when I did what Noel told me to do as possible more clarity looking to see if there was an outer planet transit involved to a Natal angle, I would have seen right away t Saturn was partile cnj my Natal Asc in the middle of July. Knowing that a regular schedule stock holder meeting is scheduled twice annually (not scheduled by me—in the corporate bylaws), Jan & July, I now know in Dec 1984 that a major Saturn shit storm with high probability would occur with the July 1985 stockholders meeting. This arms me with a hell of lot of timing information! I will never pay much attention to a Solar Arc Chart unless I see major angular activity, and even then the angular activity may not developed into a major life development. Its relative to other charts and what is happening in your immediate environment trying to determine the potency of a Solar Arc angular hit.
James wrote:
Your Matthew Quellas paraphrased quote imho is completely sound. In working systems, if one's life is in flux somehow, we should expect angular activity.
Exactly James! Never expect anything major happening unless Uranus is involved as a sudden unexpected event, unless one’s life is processing or happening as a major “flux.”
James wrote:
This is one of the major warning signs that the birthtime is wrong, when we have many events, but very little angular activity whatsoever, at these events. If we can already tell it's wrong, I'm all for doing what we can to make it right. (and as I mentioned, since I like studying the Age Harmonics, often the TPDs and PSSR aspects, ballpark accuracy sadly just won't cut it).
I understand, I think most members on this forum would not be interested in a precise birthtime to study major events with the AH, TPDs or PSSRs, whereas I, am highly interested, more later about this as to the whys for me.

James, we get it, you don’t think Solar Arcs are a valid tool, and I can understand why you think this way with the systems of astrology you practice. When I test a system of astrology with my style of astrology and it does not work for me, the last thing I am going to tell a fellow member is that system is not a good system. I am too old to waste my time debating a system, I am only interested in the systems that work for me, and I have definitely proven to my satisfaction AH works with the type astrology I practice. I want to continue a healthy discussion with you on AH. I am interested in learning new systems of astrology, I don’t care what branch or author is teaching it, only if it works for me and my style of astrological practice.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:05 am

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:06 am
Re: "No, that's not a fair expression of how I found them."

I meant in terms of finding events tight in time, relative to Solar Arc aspect partility. In terms of processes that appear to be running over a much larger swath of time, you did find them relatively descriptive/indicative.
My disagreement, which I now reassert, is that you characterized me as finding these hit-or-miss. I do not find them hit-or-miss. I found most or all of them quite descriptive of conditions during the term of the aspect, which is a two-year period of operation.

In fact, surprisingly so: I'm not as big a fan of Solar Arcs as I am of other methods, though I find them generally useful and accurate. I haven't found them to fit the standard Steve has been trying to emphasize, where every most-important event in my life is marked explicitly by a partile Solar Arc involving an angle (I have several big events in my life that don't have meet standard), but there are indeed many big events that hit this standard and, overall, when there are partile SA aspects their effect can be seen in the life.

It's fair for you to say that you find my list hit-or-miss, but please stop asserting that I find it that way. I don't. Inherent in Solar Arc directions is a two-year window of operation and, within that, these did pretty well.

BTW, my disinterested in Age Harmonics is the same kind of thing to which you object with Solar Arcs, but more extreme: I get a hodgepodge of inconsistent results. Last week I went back and ran several big events for myself and got some a mix of good ones and bad ones, with one or two outstandingly good scores and one or two quite miserably bad scores. Let's see... here's the temporary text file where I made the notes as I went... my scores on the events were:

One event had +3; four had +2; three had +1; three had 0 (these were primarily sharp contradictions, have right, half wrong), one got -1; and three got -2. While, on balance, there were 8 positive scores against 4 negative scores, those three -2 events alone make this system unreliable. The best event (the +3) had perfect symbolism but not the orbs you've said you like: It was my enthronement as head of my spiritual lineage after my teacher of many decades died, with Sun conjunct r Moon 14', Jupiter opposite r Sun 28', and a Moon-Neptune square 29'. The worst showing was the decisive event that was the effective start of the most important relationship of my life, marked by Ascendant conjunct natal Saturn 14', which I assure you is utterly wrong. (As a validation, within the HA system, of my birth time, my 2019 marriage had d MC op. r Venus 2', probably the closest correct hit in the series, my 1974 wedding had d Moon op. r MC 6'.)
Perhaps we had already gotten too close and I got to see what's behind OZ's curtain. ;) I loved Noel. He inspired me greatly and in many different ways. Many of his analysis methods are still main go-to's when I am reading for someone. But looking at everything from Noel as a whole, it's like ordering a surprise bundle of gems from China...there will be some incredibly good pieces, a lot of very usable stuff, but a few pieces where one thinks, that can go right in the dumpster. ;)
You and I share something here. Noel stayed in my home (but only after interrogating me firmly on the firmness of the mattress :) ). We were never as personally close as we might of been, partly because of our different astrological universes and probably partly because we both were at a stage of wanting the spotlight ourselves. But we knew each other pretty well, had real mutual affection, and shared a passion for driving astrology forward in the world. I quite treasured the copy of Horoscope of Identity I got him to autograph early on (of all his work, it was the thing that touched me deeply at exactly the right time).

I get along with Leo Moons quite well (I'm married to one), his Moon-Venus touched my Venus-Pluto, his Mercury-Mars-Pluto touched my Jupiter-Uranus, but his Saturn-Neptune was near my Moon - I think those describe the best and the worst the reality between us pretty well :)
[Any opinion on the Quindecile, Jim?] ;)
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:36 am

Hello, Jim...

Was that the link you were meaning to send? (quintile thread)

I followed the link and even did a page-search on that topic, but it says there are no references to the quindecile. (165° aspect that Noel touted as "the aspect of compulsion/obsession")

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:40 am

Not mentioned by name. It's just another square in the 5th harmonic, ie, an 18 degree odd multiple.
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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by ODdOnLifeItself » Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 am

Re: Noel and mattresses

Firm or not...I'm surprised the mattress was long enough.

Several things stood out with Noel. He was an excellent writer, which makes the astrology within his books, all the more enjoyable. Many authors are so dry or lost in an avalanche of data, that it makes some books quite hard to read and actually enjoy. I can't be surprised, since his Mercury-Pluto opposition lines up with his Pluto sitting on my Moon. I was certainly emotionally shocked when he offered me a scholarship into his Master's Class, which appears to me to be indicated potentially, by his Moon sitting right on my Uranus. For such a big guy with a booming voice, he surely wore his emotions on his sleeve, for all to see.

He felt astrology was regal somehow and portrayed it that way (hence the Regulus Award). I feel he could've given a Master's Class on self-promotion. ;)

And to think that, from his perspective, an astrologer in New York launched him in this direction by having told him he'd be writing astrology books. We would've missed out on a lot, if he hadn't.

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Re: Solar Arc Analysis

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:02 pm

ODdOnLifeItself wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:56 am
He felt astrology was regal somehow and portrayed it that way (hence the Regulus Award). I feel he could've given a Master's Class on self-promotion. ;)
He had Sagittarius-Leo luminaries. He thought everything was (or should have been) regal.

But, yes, I remember him bemoaning that astrologers insult the dignity of their science by calling the great Sagittarius "Sag" or saying urine-us or you-RAIN-us for the sacred oo-RAHN-ohs. Of course, I replied, remembering Batya Stark's observation, that "Noel Tyl" is "Tylenol" spelled sideways.

If you haven't done so, read my standard Sun in Sagittarius and Moon in Leo interpretations here on the site. I think they hold up pretty well with Noel in mind.

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