Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Q&A and discussion on Transits.
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Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:06 am

I strongly think this topic is very important to both the event/predicted orientated Sidereal Astrologer (Me) and the counseling Sidereal Astrologer for psychological healing damage with nasty malefic stuff. Most of my life’s work with Sidereal Astrologer has been associated with Business Readings for businessmen/women colleagues and predicted stuff with major sporting events. I also help my friends/family through troubling times with certain malefic Solunar Charts, mainly the Sidereal Solar Return (SSR).

IMO, certain Return Chart transits to the Natal Chart helps rate the potency of transits to the Natal Chart; but, these type return chart transits to the Natal are quite rare. Jim will probably have to help me clean-up my wording of this thread for clarity sake. There are only two brief places (sentences/couple paragraphs) I have read anything about these type Return Chart transits to the Natal Chart, one from Cyril Fagan related to the SLR/Demi, and Jim’s Interpreting Solar Return book which I will quote later. For terminology sake we need an abbreviated form for these type transits. Since they involve Return Charts (which actually are transits) with the Natal Chart, I will label them RCTN’s (Return Chart Transits Natal).

By what I have read and relative to my Sidereal Astrology understanding with my life experiences, I will label two classes of RCTN, s---RCTN 1, RCTN 2.

RCTN 1: Whenever you see a partile transit to the Natal Chart involved in the immediate foreground (5 deg or less) of a Solunar Chart, you are encountering serious eventful planetary manifestations.

RCTN 11: Whenever a partile transit to the Natal Chart occurs on the DAY of a Solunar Chart, no matter if it is not in the foreground of the Solunar Chart; this transit is more potent than a normal everyday partile transit to the Natal.

RCTN 1’s I have much personal experience by taking my few SLR’s and one SSR and relocating myself to optimum gambling and recreational locations, and I know for sure in my own personal psychic, they are much more potent than a regular everyday transit to the Natal Chart. This type RCTN involves the simple principle of Sidereal Astrology—Angularity in Solunar Charts are the ‘cornerstone’ of Sidereal Astrology.

RCTN 2’s involve vague understandings/research and I have no personal experience with this type RCTN registered in my own psychic.
More later.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:53 am

Excellent idea to start a thread on this, Steve. I've rolled this over in my mind many times over the years, and have been actively thinking about it (on and off) over the last couple of days - probably stirred by our conversations a few days ago.

What I've gained from thinking about it over the last few days is complete clarity - That is, I'm completely clear that I don't have a clue about this topic! <vbg> I have ideas and thoughts and chains of thought that I'll jot here with the idea that "thinking out loud" might help me get more clarity on a path, or might stimulate someone else to uncover something.

I'm unusually qualified on this topic because I have watched transits to my natal and SSR (and sometimes more) every single day of every single month from 1976 through the present. It's the bedrock of my personal astrology, the one thing I know I can count on above everything else to tell me the nature of a particular day. And, on this particular question (which I call the rheostat effect regarding transits), I have almost nothing to say that is concrete and definitive.

But, in the next post, I'll jabber aloud and see if that gets me anywhere.

Meanwhile, here is a sample of what I prepare for myself every month and watch every day. It has things I rely on, and things I don't rely on but am watching. I use font size and other visual emphasis to relatively rank categories of things to filter (at a glance) more important from less important (this way of doing it changes periodically).

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ansnmu2xbktak5xvDFIFFOVxIq4PEw

Since somebody will ask, I'll mention now what some of the less obvious things are: Na9 and No9 are Navamsa and Novien, respectively (only Moon is listed). Cer is Ceres (I'm watching for something, so far fruitlessly). while s, of course, is "solar" (i.e,, my SSR), s-DEN are my Denver SSR angles (where the SSR set up this year). L is local (of the natal), LP is local progressed - not used for transits at all (they're worthless), but appearing here because of a progressed Moon to local progressed angle aspect this month.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:26 am

My thoughts on relative importance of transits...

First, I think there are language issues to address if we are going to discuss this. They pertain to our expectations. As you will probably see below, I think you and I are looking for different things, and our expectations color how these things seem to us (and what we are able to easily see).

I see every single hard-aspect transit to my natal chart, my SSR, and my progressed luminaries as important. - Except for the ones that aren't :lol: I'll spend more time below writing about that last point, but want to establish a base line that (1) I pretty much expect every transit in this category to be important and (2) I nonetheless recognize that some of them seem to be duds.

Steve, I know you are especially interested in significant events. This is where our expectations part ways because, to me, events are just one variety of non-event experiences. That is, I have been long practiced in watching the process of my own thoughts and inner images, and witnessing how this reflects or precipitates into my life, and I don't see a LOT of difference between having an event happen that somebody else can see vs. having psychological shifts that, in fact, move my relationship to my life every bit as much as most "outside" events.

It's all the same to me most of the time. Obviously, some physical events have much more importance to me than "mere" psychological phenomena; but it's also true that some wholly internal phenomena have much more importance to me than "mere" physical events :) So, in this sense, they are on equal footing for me.

My current SLR has Mars exactly on EP in partile conjunction (05') with natal Saturn. Boy, did my knee-jerk reaction set off an alarm when I first saw that! The negative effects have been quite mild, so mild as to make me wonder if I should have "wasted" a whole nasty SLR on them <g>. The virus I got in mid-November has never quite resolved (so much for breaking my rule this year about not getting a flue shot - they always have resulted in my getting sicker than in other years), and I've been home and down the last few days. Nothing horrible or miserable, just a big ol' brain fog, a serious loss of energy, and relatively mild other symptoms. My vital signs that I track routinely (e.g., BP) have been more stable than in months. The biggest event of the time is rather positive - something I see quite often with Mars transits to Saturn - a breakthrough of tension, a gentle resolution of a locked, tense situation. One might have thought this would be hugely bad, and it really hasn't been.

Meanwhile, creativity has surged, a number of small inner breakthroughs have occurred, and (despite loss of energy) I've felt inwardly pushed to see how much work I can get done while at home. This "purely psychological" stuff intermeshes seamlessly with the "event" of being sick. There is no clear boundary between them.

Yesterday, an old friend died. (I learned of it yesterday.) We hadn't been in touch in decades. In the '80s, we had a very significant time of hanging out a lot and doing some work together, then occasionally intersected as we moved through overlapping circles, each "doing our thing." I always felt fond of him, we just didn't have any reason to get pulled together. I last saw him by accident on a bus a dozen years ago, and we'd exchanged emails a few times in between. Nonetheless, in a quiet way, learning of his death was more important to my day yesterday than anything else directly going on with me. I was reflective, reminiscent, had a Facebook chat with his ex-girlfriend from "back in the day," exchanged a couple of notes with other friends from the time. I jotted his passing in my diary because, down the road, there is a sense that yesterday will turn out to be a karmic transition - perhaps some old duties gone, some new responsibilities picked up. (As people move in and out of our lives, they change the landscape, the balance of what is there. A departure rearranges the pieces.)

I don't see this event, and my reactions to it, in my SLR. It's hardly a Mars-to-Saturn event, though it had elements of Saturn. But, one day earlier (Monday), transiting Saturn semi-squared my progressed Saturn. I normally wouldn't pay much attention to a semi-square to a progressed non-luminary, but this was by a slow-moving planet so it was worth noting and, in fact, it describes yesterday's event perfectly, down to the fact that the "minor-ness" of the transit (semi-square, involving an outer progressed planet) is proportionate to the scale of the event (hardly a major event in my life), and yet characterologically exactly descriptive - it symbolized the outward event and, even more, described its internal meaning and psychological consequences.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:33 am

Where I'm going with all of that is this:

Steve, since you are focused more on significant events, you look especially for those things more likely to produce outstanding outwardly visible consequences. From a "top down" view, you will (for example) pay more attention to the Solunars, and are now (my paraphrase) looking to see what else you might have missed that speaks in those Solunars. You put your baseline somewhere near where Solunars operate, and many transits fall below that "outstanding" baseline.

I think I agree with distinctions you'll find, but would have written about them in an almost upside-down fashion. I see the daily transits as my baseline - something on which I can rely almost every day of my life - and see phenomena in Solunars as sometimes isolating bigger or more spotlighted results.

I mention this just to align our language and expectations on what we're looking for.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:55 am

I should state what I see as an "event;" or, rather, as I like to think about it, "when an event is necessary."

I'll use event in an etymologically pure way: The e- is the same as the Latin ex-, and means "out." "Event" literally means "out-come" (a coming out). Though I speak often of "psychological events," I'll try not to slip into that here. I'll try to reserve "event" for something that comes out, that is an outcome visible out in the world.

Having said that, I think the main requirement of an astrological occurrence (a transit or whatever) is that we have an experience (from the same root as experiment, and meaning something we have "tried out," from an Indo-European root mean "to try or test"). An experience is always a psychological phenomena, which may or may not be linked to an event. That is, the psychological shift or state of an experience can be related to something we perceive to be outside of us, or entirely to things "happening" inside of us.

The experience itself is entirely internal, and is the only thing that matters. We see this more easily in major astrological patterns, such as long-term transit, which I think all have the purpose of growing us and rounding us out by taking us through different shifts in consciousness.

The only thing that life and the universe demands of us is the inner shift arising from an experience. It isn't necessary that there be an outer event at all UNLESS our psyches aren't going to budge without some event to push us this way or that.

This is important, and I just realized it may not have been written down in anything I've ever read in the astrological literature: Events - "outside" happenings - are all, in one sense, corrections of a failure to make an internal shift. There isn't any need for them (from the perspective of our personal growth in a given lifetime) unless we are unwilling to make the necessary shift - to have the necessary experience - without something "outside" to force us into it.

When a strong astrological pattern is active requiring an inner shift, or inner growth, if we are aware of this and merely adopt the point of view of the aspect (willingly take it up and incorporate it), then there is no requirement that something "external" happen. Usually external events arise when we don't get the message, and the universe needs to crank up the volume a bit until we do get it.

Ah, but life and the universe are complicated, eh? The planets people have the hardest time with are those which, by their nature, focus us more on materialization (Saturn: outward focus on things you can bump) and physicality (Mars). Perhaps we could resolve most of these internally as well, except, when passing through Saturn or Mars phases we are less likely to keep our attention internal, more likely to focus on the material or physical, so we're much less likely to "just get the message, make the shift, and flow with the changing tides." Result: It hurts more!
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:12 am

The next topic, I think, is: What is the natural life cycle of a transit? (Any transit.)

We are used to seeing that a transit is operative for the time it is within a 1° orb (coming or going), usually peaking somewhere near the point it is exact. (Other things can deflect it a little early or late, but we'll skip that for now.)

Is there any difference between applying and separating transits? In a sense, yes; but only in a sense. The sense is this: As a transit marks a process of an internal shift, coming to a peak of an experience, then there is kind of a "resolution" of the psychic pressure for this experience that "pops" when an event or experience pops about the time the aspect is exact. Sometimes there is a sense in which it feels like "it's all over," not because the aspect has stopped but because we are now different - we are dealing with the energies from the perspective of having made a psychological shift, so we have a new experience and new resources (or at least a new framework) for interacting with those energies.

But the aspect is still operative.

This gets more complicated with retrogradation. With retrogradation, we see much more of a process in which we get recursive opportunities to get a particular lesson (i.e., incorporate a new point of view into ourselves or make a particular shift). This is because the real life-cycle of a transit, I am convinced, is that it operates from the FIRST time it enters a 1° orb until the LAST time it leaves a 1° orb. Thus, Pluto square my Sun was a process that ran from February 1, 2016 through Decvember 21, 2017, even though most of that time it was not in a partile orb. (It was exact thrice during that time, the last one being about a month before the 22 months were over.)

In these multi-pass transits, we see many phenomena described by what I have written above. For example, most astrologers notice that most people have the highest impact from Pass 1, the most grinding and aggravating difficulties in Pass 2, and the easiest time in Pass 3. I simplify this by saying: It all depends on when you "get the lesson" and make the internal shift. Once that has happened, the outer circumstances are lighter and may not even be necessary.

Ah, but going back to Pluto square my Sun, which officially "ended" in December, there's a complication: The partile transit occurs exactly on the angles of my current Sidereal Solar Return.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:20 am

This is one of the main complexities in the transit model: The usual rule about partile orb of transits is relaxed when a transit occurs in the foreground of a solar or lunar return.

This tells me that the transit has really been effective much sooner, but probably at a level "below the radar" - below some threshold of sensibility. In practice, we can usually act like "it wasn't there" until it became partile, but aspects are gradual, gradient dynamics that flow from nothing to peak, and from peak back to nothing, and we are surely setting up our lives for the partile manifestation ahead of time.

This becomes especially obvious with solar and lunar returns. A transit to a natal planet, if foreground in a solar or lunar return, is probably operative out to about 5°, and certainly within about 3°. Without the solunar angularity, we probably wouldn't notice it, though. Being foreground in a solunar has at least two effects on a transit:

1. It draws out into the open, when we might have not seen it otherwise.
2. It locks it in for the lifespan of the return chart.

Thus, the partile transiting Pluto square my natal Sun lasts at least ten months past when the transit left partile orb, because it's on the angles of a Solar Return that expires in October 2018.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:29 am

I want to loop back and touch on transits that seem to be duds.

Nearly always, these are for obvious reasons. Sure, some transits are stronger than others, and some are more likely to have impact. We could compile a list of rules, but most of it is common sense.

Faster transits scoot by faster. Slower ones "burn in" longer. However, this means that the faster ones aremore likely to mark the distinctive characteristics of a particular day.

Semi-squares and sesqui-squares are valid, and somewhat weaker than conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. (Notice, on my monthly spreadsheet, I put them in a smaller font so they "jump out" less.) Mercury transits are voluminous, and often undetectable in my life simply because my life is so full of Mercury activities that there is no easy way to say, "Today was a Mercury day, and tomorrow is not." They're all Mercury days!

So some transits are minor, some are flitting, and some are "lost in the jungle" - hard to single out from everything else going on, or from the normal flow of life.

For the most part, though, you can see these operate day-by-day. Every day. Every transit. Except, as I mentioned way back near the start of this thread... except the ones that seem duds. That misfire for no obvious reason.

This is where I am most interested in the topic Steve raised at the very top. Is there some sort of rheostat ? Some sort of "dimmer switch" that scales the importance of a transit up or down? Something that explains (where common sense and simple observations fail) the transits that seem a really big deal, and those that are duds?
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:47 am

The big question, for which I have no answer: Is there a rheostat - a "strength of the current regulator" - that helps us determine which transits are strongest and which are duds?

If so, I'd like to find it, and have never been able to find it.

I can easily find things that are more likely than not to measure whether some external, manifest event occurs, but that's pretty boring to me. That's not a matter of strength, but of externalization. (Angles externalize expression.)

First of all, most transits are "full strength." Lesser aspects (45°, 135°) are a bit weaker, while slower planet crossings are generally more impactful. But I start from a place of all of them being fully active.

So, for me, the real question is: Does anything suppress some transits? How do we account for the occasional "miss" that isn't one of the "life & astrology are complicated" examples above?

Regarding partile aspects at the time of the Solar or Lunar Return: This is the question that started it all. I don't think this is a valid way to judge the effectiveness of transits, in the sense that Fagan proposed. Instead, I think it's part of determining what the return chart says. I don't agree with Fagan's statement that the only transits that matter are the ones that are partile in a return chart, because I'm used to nearly all transits being effective. I do, however, agree, that all partile transits at the time of the SSR or SLR are important - important to the meaning of the chart itself! Thus, Donald Trump recently had a splendid, benefic-laced SLR, and he travelled Asia and seems to have had a wonderful time; but, in the background of the same SLR, Pluto squared his Jupiter (partile) and Uranus squared his Saturn (partile). There was no escaping these aspects. However, they manifest as "background factors," not the main "Here's another toast to you, Mr. President!" message. While he was travelling and toasting, his status was being assaulted and his foundation crumbling - Pluto-Jupiter and Uranus-Saturn were continuing "off camera" as part of the same period.

Here's how I see the question:

Are there astrological factors that dial up, or dial down, the intensity of individual transits? That make some of them more important and obvious, and others less important or even duds?

I think we need to distinguish this from the separate but closely related question of what aspects are operative WITHIN a given solar or lunar return. For example, my next SLR has natal Pluto on Westpoint. It is also exactly squared (05') by transiting Mars. Fine, Mars square natal Pluto is obviously an important aspect in that SLR. But separately is this a gauge that any other transits to my natal Pluto are unusually important during the month? When Venus opposes my natal Pluto February 8 is that a stronger Venus-to-Pluto than usual? Will it have outstanding significance in some way? I doubt it. I've never seen this sort of thing work.

Or, in that same January 21 SLR, my natal Mercury and Saturn are on a cadent cusp. Does that mean that transits to my natal Mercury and Saturn during the month will be weaker and ineffective? If so, I haven't seen this sort of thing to be true either. When transiting Venus squares my natal Saturn January 25, and my Mercury on the 27th, I expect them to be as likely to mark those individual days as ever.

If the angularity of natal planets in a current lunar return is any measurement of how strong ongoing transits will be throughout the month, I've never seen it.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:16 pm

In theory, what kinds of rheostats could we have? There are two categories: personal and mundane (or collective).

Let's start with personal rheostats.

It would be the most lovely and perfect of worlds if the following were true: Transits are all fairly minor things unless they fall on a quotidian angle, making them a really big deal for that day. In theory, they would be even more likely to manifest fully when in a strong place than when in exact orb.

But I don't see this being true. Even if you allow three or four separate quotidian methods, their angles don't seem to isolate those days on which a transit is whoppo-bango-joyjoy a bigger deal than any other day. For example, I have an ongoing Uranus transit to my Mars, and Uranus was on the SNQ IC on January 4. There was no unusually obvious Uranus-Mars transit phenomena that day. They will next cross SNQ angles January 23, and I doubt that day will be any more Uranus-to-Mars either.

This sounds, to me, like the most theoretically perfect kind of "dimmer switch," but it just doesn't seem to work.

Or, we can consider the subject of the last post, the relative angularity of the planets in the SLR. I don't mean this this as part of interpreting the SLR itself, but of determining the openness to transit impact of a natal planet during the course of the month. For example, as my natal Saturn is background in my next SLR, does this mean it is more resistant to the impact of transits during the month? Or, because my Pluto is on an SLR angle, does that mean its transits will be more intense for four weeks? My experience suggests that there won't be any difference.

Furthermore, there are so many overlapping layers affecting the natal chart - wheels within wheels, a dozen return charts, three or four quotidian methods, etc. - we would have to find some "layering" or prioritizing. Presumably the obviously stronger factors, such as the current SLR, would be expected (in theory) to be most responsive.

Now let's look at the mundane or collective factors.

How (if at all) do our natal charts operate within the framework of solar and lunar ingresses and the main quotidians? Of al the methods available, this would be the most personally satisfying if it worked, for two reasons: (1) It is a much simpler framework than all the stuff happening to the natal chart - far fewer techniques and charts than we apply to the natal. (2) It would demonstrate a continuity between mass-mind phenomena and individual activity that would solve all sorts of philosophical problems.

For example, were it true that personal transits were most powerful when they fell near the angles of the Capsolar Quotidian, this would substantially solve the philosophical problem of, "How to you explain a mass disaster that affects certain people if it's just shown in the mundane charts?" For example, if malefics on mundane charts show a local life-claiming disaster, and the malefic transits to individuals' charts were most likely to be effective when on CapQ angles, then odds are dramatically increased that most of the people killed in a disaster had important malefic contacts to their individual natal charts.

So far, I haven't seen this to be true. When I have checked the mundane charts against the nativities of personal charts of people involved (e.g., the natals of people assassinated vs. the ingresses and quotidians), there hasn't been a clear connection. It's as if the individuals have their own experience, shown by factors in their own charts, and the world at large has its collective experience, shown by the mundane charts.

Nonetheless, this could be an important area for astrologers to research. We could gather a lot of data in a short time if everybody would start watching their own charts against the CapQ day-by-day. I think the focus should not be simply on when a natal planet comes to a CapQ angle, but to this question of transits: When does a transit to the natal chart fall right on the CapQ angles for your locality, and is that transit outstanding somehow, even if a minor-seeming transit?

Going back to an earlier example, I have Uranus transit opposite square my Neptune for different periods from last April until this March. On March 5, when the aspect is 13' wide, CapQ Ascendant conjoins my Neptune and opposes transiting Uranus. Will that day single out a very strong expression of Uranus to my Neptune unlike a week earlier or later? I don't think it will, but I suppose a more concentrated effort should be expended to find out.

And, at the moment, I think that's all I have to say on the subject.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:24 pm

In response to your first post.
Jim wrote:
I don't agree with Fagan's statement that the only transits that matter are the ones that are partile in a return chart…
I understand Jim. I think most partile transits register something in the psyche, but I think Fagan recognized an important discernable difference with the partile ones in return charts. But, I don’t know how we could test/prove. I don’t believe Fagan isolated enough of these type transits to write/report about them in Solunars Column, but still recognized something important. What I am interested in exploring with return charts are fast transits with the social planet Venus and business transits with Mercury (more hits vs slower transits), partile aspected with Natal on Day of Return Charts. We are probably dealing with something that can’t be explored from a research standpoint, but still, it is something that each member could become conscious of in their own return charts for possible future reporting manifestations as being more of an out of ordinary incident vs normal living. AFAIK, never has been tested by a Sidereal Astrologer. I could easily take each member birth times posted on this forum and calculated all 26 SLR/DEMI’ s, isolating these type possible transits, and then let the members report back as to possible measuring the effects associate with possible more important incidents vs ho-hum everyday living. I/we will push on with thread for possible exploration/discovery.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:19 pm

Jim wrote:
It would be the most lovely and perfect of worlds if the following were true: Transits are all fairly minor things unless they fall on a quotidian angle, making them a really big deal for that day. In theory, they would be even more likely to manifest fully when in a strong place than when in exact orb.
I have already tested this in my personal life. Only when you know there is a set scheduled date in the future that is definitely involving an ‘out of ordinary’ occurrence in your life that has you ramped-up psychologically will partile transits to the q angles be meaningful. Otherwise, partile transits to q angles are basically useless---unless an ‘out of ordinary incident’ occurs that is unexpected (not planned).
Jim wrote:
Or, we can consider the subject of the last post, the relative angularity of the planets in the SLR. I'm not using this as part of interpreting the SLR itself, but of determining the openness to transit impact of a natal planet during the course of the month. For example, as my natal Saturn is background in my next SLR, does this mean it is immune to the impact of transits during the month? Or, because my Pluto is on an SLR angle, does that mean its transits will be more intense for four weeks? My experience suggests that there won't be any difference.
To clarify specifically. When looking at angles of a SLR or SSR, it is a ONLY a partile transit to a natal planet or angle that falls tight orb on the SLR or SSR angle which possibly distinguishes this as a super-duper potent partile transit to a natal planet or natal angle. Very rare, may be once in lifetime situations, I dunno. Again, no solid research to examine, only common sense with the ‘cornerstone’ of Sidereal Astrology---Angularity.
Jim wrote:
Furthermore, there are so many overlapping layers affecting the natal chart - wheels within wheels, a dozen return charts, three or four quotidian methods, etc. - we would have to find some "layering" or prioritizing. Presumably the obviously stronger factors, such as the current SLR, would be expected 9in theory) to be most responsive.
I understand Jim. This is why I asked you the other day if there was a short-cut with SF to isolate these types transits in a list—instead of having to examine all the SLR/DEMI in the future. With this thread, I am only interested in possibly examine these type transits to the Lunar and Solar Return Charts.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:24 pm

SteveS wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:19 pm
To clarify specifically. When looking at angles of a SLR or SSR, it is a ONLY a partile transit to a natal planet or angle that falls tight orb on the SLR or SSR angle which possibly distinguishes this as a super-duper potent partile transit to a natal planet or natal angle.
No, not in theory. It would be on a scale of "the closer it is, the more likely to manifest it is," although partile is a good place to test.

My point was that I don't even see partile angularity of natal planets having this effect of cranking up a planet's sensitivity to transits occurring throughout that month. I'm not yet convinced that there is any such mechanism. It would be like the Golden Fleece to find such a thing, but it might be just as mythical.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:17 pm

Jim wrote:
No, not in theory. It would be on a scale of "the closer it is, the more likely to manifest it is," although partile is a good place to test.
My point was that I don't even see partile angularity of natal planets having this effect of cranking up a planet's sensitivity to transits occurring throughout that month. I'm not yet convinced that there is any such mechanism. It would be like the Golden Fleece to find such a thing, but it might be just as mythical.
OK, For the first time in my life, I am going to put Fagan's words pertaining to transiting partile aspects to the natal chart, only when these partile transiting aspects occur only on a SLR Day. I want to test and see if these type transits last for a SLR time period. IMO, these type transits will best be proved with the faster moving transiting planets. As Fagan said, I will only use the partile/tight 0, 180, and to a 'lesser degree' the 90.

In next post, I will use my next SLR for discussions on these thread issues, with very close psychological examinations.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:29 pm

Sounds great!
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:48 pm

My next Jan 12 SLR (Moon cnj Moon): SLR (inside wheel), Natal (outside wheel)

https://imgur.com/a/Oz2C3

OK, we see in the SLR, a foreground partile Mercury-Saturn cnj, partile 90 my Natal Venus(interesting-i already know what this is symbolizing in my immediate environment to be explained later). Fagan is saying this combo will have more potency than any other t. Mercury-Saturn cnj partile 90 Natal Venus in my lifetime-- because partility falls only on my SLR DAY! But, this is actually not telling us anything new by just analyzing the SLR itself, following Jim’s Return guidelines. But, since Mercury is a fast-moving planet, this partile t. 90 Mercury-Natal Venus is much more important than all the other t. Mercury partile Natal Venus in our lifetimes, because most t. Mercury partile 90 our Natal Venus does not occur on the DAYS of our SLR’S. too be continued

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:58 pm

Steve, I see why you want to focus on faster planets making these transits - the slower ones are in force longer (even without regard of the SLR) and harder to distinguish. But we already know that a partile transit that close to the angles will be operative. Are there non-foreground partile transits that (under more common rules) wouldn't be counted?

Here are the partile transits I see in your next SLR:

t Uranus sq. r Mars 0°12'
t Saturn sq. r Venus 0°22'
-- t Mercury sq. r Venus 0°12'
t Jupiter sq. r Saturn 0°10'

I'm curious whether Jupiter=s transit to natal Saturn - quite background in the SLR - has a strong "say" in the next month. This might be especially hard to discern with so foreground a Saturn square your Venus, but will be even more interesting if it "hits."
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Danica » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:00 pm

Steve, thank you for starting this thread and prompting Jim to write what he wrote here.

Jim, this is great stuff!!!

The following passage I find to be especially valuable, and want to reiterate by quoting it in whole:
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:55 am
I should state what I see as an "event;" or, rather, as I like to think about it, "when an event is necessary."

I'll use event in an etymologically pure way: The e- is the same as the Latin ex', and means "out." "Event" literally means "out-come" (a coming out). Though I speak often of "psychological events," I'll try not to slip into that here. I'll try to reserve "event" for something that comes out, that is an outcome visible out in the world.

Having said that, I think the main requirement of an astrological occurrence (a transit or whatever) is that we have an experience (from the same root as experiment, and meaning something we have "tried out," from an Indo-European root mean "to try or test out"). An experience is always a psychological phenomena, which may or may not be linked to an event. That is, the psychological shift or state of an experience can be related to something we perceive to be outside of us, or entirely to things "happening" inside of us.

The experience itself is entirely internal, and is the only thing that matters. We see this more easily in major astrological patterns, such as long-term transit, which I think all have the purpose of growing us and rounding us out by taking us through different shifts in consciousness.

The only thing that life and the universe demands of us is the inner shift arising from an experience. It isn't necessary that there be an outer event at all UNLESS our psyches aren't going to budge without some event to push us this way or that.

This is important, and I just realized it may not have been written down in anything I've ever read in the astrological literature: Events - "outside" happenings - are all, in one sense, corrections of a failure to make an internal shift. There isn't any need for them (from the perspective of our personal growth in a given lifetime) unless we are unwilling to make the necessary shift - to have the necessary experience - without something "outside" to force us into it.

When a strong astrological pattern is active requiring an inner shift, or inner growth, if we are aware of this and merely adopt the point of view of the aspect (willingly take it up and incorporate it), then there is no requirement that something "external" happen. Usually external events arise when we don't get the message, and the universe needs to crank up the volume a bit until we do get it.

Ah, but life and the universe are enormously complicated, eh? The planets people have the hardest time with are those which, by their nature, focus us more on materialization (Saturn: outward focus on things you can bump) and physicality (Mars). Perhaps we could resolve most of these internally as well, except, when we passing through Saturn or Mars phases we are less likely to keep our attention internal, more likely to focus on the material and physical, so we're much less likely to "just get the message, make the shift, and flow with the changing tides." Result: It hurts more!
QUID VOLIS ILUD FAC

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:11 pm

:) Thought you might like some of that :)
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:32 am

Danica wrote:
Steve, thank you for starting this thread and prompting Jim to write what he wrote here.

You are welcome Danica. This is how I (we) learn more Sidereal Astrology :) Back before this forum was born, I had a full notebook of questions about Sidereal Astrology, with no seasoned Sidereal Astrologer to ask a-lot questions. Jim helps me with clarity filtered through my natal Mercury-Neptune cnj. :) Danica, your quoted words by Jim is priceless. I have made a hard copy for my Sidereal Astrology notebook.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:50 am

Fagan wrote:
Transits and the Lunar Return
In regard to the more rapidly moving planets, their transits only become significant if they should closely configure the birth planets on the date of a lunar return. For example, if Mars should be in exact opposition, conjunction, or to a lesser extent, square the radical sun on the date of a lunar return there will be a liability of an accident, hurt or illness. Otherwise such a transit may pass without anything untoward occurring. So it is always advisable to note all the transits to the birth planets, especially to the natal moon, that are exact or nearly so, on the date of a lunar return for they are certain to be effective. Indeed the Indian Janma-Rasi method of monthly prediction, which has proved so astonishingly successful, was probably originally based on such transits.
I want to explore Fagan’s above words with my new SLR which begins late this evening, link below with Jan 12 SLR (inside wheel), natal (outside wheel).

https://imgur.com/a/sBZfB

Note: t. Saturn is partile 90 my Natal Venus. So far, I have noticed no major symbolism from this partile Saturn 90 transit to my Natal Venus, maybe in a very indirect minor way related to a business client, but certainly not in a personal major way with my immediate living environment. Now Fagan with his above quoted words are telling us that transits of the faster moving planets to our natal planets will not produce any significant occurrences unless they are partile/tight aspected to natal planets on the DAY of the SLR.
Well, beginning this evening, t. Mercury partile cnj t. Saturn in the heavens, partile 90 my Natal Venus in the foreground of my new beginning Jan 12 SLR 9:56 pm. I want to see if this t. Mercury excites t. Saturn partile my Natal Venus into operation for my Jan 12 SLR. I will update, when/if, I see this Mercury-Saturn-Venus combo manifesting in my SLR.

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:29 am

Of course, you have another four weeks to see if it shows :) And because you picked one that is foreground, we expect it to operate independent of whether this "transits are valid if partile in the SLR" rule works, i.e., foreground Mercury-Saturn square natal Venus is basic to the SLR anyway, in the same way that your natal Sun-Uranus square on the angles is.
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:52 am

Speaking of Scorpio Moons and their new SLRs, Donald Trump's new lunar is another worthwhile example to study. It occurs late tomorrow (1/13) and, by long-established principles, its main features are Mercury-Saturn conjoined on IC square natal Neptune rising.

But, in terms of partile transits, there is a lot more to watch. Here are all partile transits:

t Uranus sq. r Saturn 0°11'
-- t Venus sq. r Saturn 0°16'
-- t Sun sq. r Saturn 0°54'
t Pluto sq. r Jupiter 0°46'
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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by SteveS » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 am

Yes, and the t. Uranus partile 90 my Natal Mars kicked off in a very minor way last Friday. I want to see if this SLR brings out more of the partile 90 t. Uranus to my Natal Mars. But. what I think Fagan is trying to relay to us is to basically not expect any partile transits of the fast moving planets to our natal factors to register much of a manifestation unless these type transits are partile on the day of the SLR. I am just experimenting with this SLR--mainly to see if this SLR with t. Mercury partile 90 Natal Venus heightens all the other partile aspects in this SLR. I am pretty sure most all of your Return guidelines in your book covers what Fagan is saying with his above quoted words, but maybe with some added refinement--but I don't really know for sure. :)

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Re: Natal Transits "Rated" by Potency TIMED by Solunar Charts

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:29 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 am
But. what I think Fagan is trying to relay to us is to basically not expect any partile transits of the fast moving planets to our natal factors to register much of a manifestation unless these type transits are partile on the day of the SLR.
I agree, that's what he's saying; and I agree that it deserves an attentive, conscientious look.

I think it's wrong, unless he means a substantially different standard of "manifestation" than I see day in and out. Nonetheless, the way to find out for sure whether this is right is to actually look. (Or, as Fagan spoofed on Gilbert & Sullivan, "go to see.")

Sunday, Venus squares my Neptune. This was not partile in my SLR or Demi-SLR. I already know it will be outwardly effective since Marion and I are spending the day together driving to north Santa Barbara County to hit some of our favorite wineries. No big deal, not a life-changing event, but a clean, accurate hit. Now, it may be that there is a new distinction to identify here - that a certain magnitude of event is more likely to happen if the aspect is exact in the SLR. That may be exactly what he was saying ("only for big stuff," etc.). But that's a long way from saying that the other transits aren't valid.

On the 18th, the downtown office of our firm is having an after-holidays party for everyone in my department (everyone in IT + billing) at an exclusive, elegant club. The CIO set out the invitations and made a point of nudging me hard to be there despite the fact that it's a hard dash across LA at rush hour to make it. On that day, Sun opposes my Jupiter-Uranus (not exact in my SLR or Demi). Now, I don't think his pushing me to be there means there is a "surprise reward" (for example) - nothing that big - but, at the very least, I'll be going to a new experience in a new place that is elegant (even stuffy) to be wined and dined on a day Sun opposes my Jupiter and Uranus - so, we already know it will be an accurate transit.

I'm thinking, therefore, that what we're going to learn has something to do with scope of the transit, not its operability. However, regardless of what I think on the matter, the real key is for all of us to actually look and see - as you are doing!

PS - I know I keep pushing the other side of this. One half, which you are testing, is, "Are transits invalid if they aren't partile in the SLR." The other side, which I was emphasizing with Trump and other examples, is, "Are all partile transits to the natal in the SLR valid, regardless of where they fall in the chart?" I have been finding that they are, provided we don't let the interfere with our basic analysis of the SLR - using them as supplemental or, literally, "background details" (pun intended). The primary meaning of Trump's new SLR is Mercury-Saturn square his Neptune; but, having that basic meaning in place, the question is whether, for example, Sun-Venus-Uranus square his Saturn is all fully operative as part of the meaning of the month.
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