Gut punch

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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abby
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Gut punch

Post by abby » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:54 pm

Hi all.
There’s a boy in my life i’ve known for a few years now, but we have gotten much closer than we’ve ever been before over the course of the past few months. I feel closer with him than i’ve ever felt with anyone and, despite the fact that we aren’t really “together”, I can’t imagine life without him. I feel he protects me, teaches me, and makes me complete in a way that is just larger than life, and in a way I can’t bear to lose. He promises to protect me from the bad in the world and I can’t possibly imagine belonging to anyone else, i’m completely devoted and my world belongs to him. He is my sun, moon, and stars. Things are going pretty well now, we’ve had some serious problems in the past where he’s left and then come back but for now there’s harmony, he is proud of me and happy with the way that i am and this makes me feel completely safe, happy, subdued in my soul. However, our synastry is god-awful. I’ll leave the birth info attached below. I didn’t even know just how bad it is until now, and it feels like...a death sentence. I have been investing my hopes and dreams in this person, reveling in the harmony we have and loving every second of it, but the synastry says, “this will all end terribly”. I kind of find it baffling that things could be so good (for now) in reality (and that I could be so drawn to him and completely, hopelessly devoted), but so bad in the synastry - I’m thinking it’s the individual natal charts allowing for these things, not anything in the synastry. I don’t really understand how to cope with this, i wish it would just not be true, I find myself hoping something was calculated wrong, but it stays there, just staring me in the face. I’m trying to focus on how things are good right now, but this is sitting like a heavy weight on my chest.

My question is, how do I navigate this? How does one cope with the road map of the relationship with someone one cherishes so deeply, someone one really wants things to go well with forever, spelling disaster?
What are the silver linings here? And maybe most importantly, how can I ensure this goes as well as possible, or rather, how can I best play to my strengths?

My info:
March 12, 2001
Memphis, TN
8:29pm

His info:
May 2, 1995
Los Angeles, CA
8:03am

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Re: Gut punch

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm

Abby, the synastry is not "god-awful." It has some serious problems; it also has some remarkably positive factors.

Since you've probably already looked at this, I don't need to detail all of it. There are some strong, positive factors of attraction that generally mark excellent relationships. There are also factors that are merely intense - very intense - without being necessarily good or bad. And then there are some rather rough aspects also.

Rough. Genuinely rough. Things that need work and strength. But coexisting with extremely positive matters also. The two of you have to decide what to do with all of that.

First, though, I need to emphasize that this won't be an easy relationship. It's intense. It will never work as a casual relationship. It demands intensity, presence, focus, and being willing to ride strong waves together. It only will work as equals - both standing equally strong and alive in each other's presence. The synastry is good either for a quick, intense encounter or for a sustained long-term mutual willingness to be gigantic together. There's not really any room in between.

With that preamble, here are the main problem areas. (I may not hit every nail on the head, but what I'm about to say will be representative of the areas and themes of difficulties.)

First, your Mars exactly opposes his Moon. (It's part of a bigger pattern - his Moon-Jupiter to your Mars-Pluto - of which most of the aspects are purely positive or neutrally intense; but Moon-Mars is in its own category. I once wrote of this aspect in synastry that time ends all things including immortal love - a phrase intended to emphasize the intensity, even immortality, of how the connection feels. Moon-Mars is ferociously sexual - ferociously! - no less so given the Mars-Jupiter and Moon-Pluto aspects that go with it. Generally, this relationship demands more or less uninterrupted ferocity that tends to show as {shag}-or-fight. I've sometimes jokingly (exaggeratedly) described this by saying that when you have to catch a breath between rounds, be careful - a fight will work its way in; and I've had people say no, that's not a joke, it's pretty right on. The main thing is that sustained ferocity and intensity is pretty much a requirement of the chemistry between you, each responding to and requiring fairly sustained ferocity of the other. - Yes, it's a hard thing to sustain (everybody gets psychologically tired sometimes) and yes, most such relationships burn out. It takes communication, clear emotions, and intention to keep it working.

Speaking of communication, you have an exact Mercury-Saturn square that falls on his angles (your Saturn not too far from his Mercury). This probably means that you aren't at your communication best around him and, especially, tend not to really listen to him. Perhaps there are uncomfortable things you don't want to hear - perhaps something else - but it's an area that won't come easily especially with the amount of natural, raw emotion in the relationship. That's something you can work on.

Also, besides aspecting his Moon and Jupiter, your Mars-Pluto straddles his Descendant. You are especially aggressive - explosively, perhaps almost impersonally so - around him. This is so strong that it shouldn't be suppressed or blocked - that would only make things worse - but you do need to be mindful of it and consciously wield that potentially explosive aggression.

Finally, and perhaps more important than any of these except the Moon-Mars, your Sun conjoins his Saturn. This is a complex aspect that has a very sophisticated, layered meaning. With the other aspects it suggests power struggles - each of you struggling to feel and prove that you have control of things in the relationship (coming from both of you feeling enormous needs for power combined with feeling suppressed, blocked, limited somehow). In simple terms, his Saturn on your Sun means that his actions/behaviors block, control, darken who you fundamentally are, shutting down your authentic self expression. Your Sun on his Saturn mean you stir his inner demons, his sense of insufficiency, the terror dark corners in his psyche. There is probably a great deal more to this than I've set, reciprocity that seems to flip what I've said on occasion, echos through your individual relationships with your parents, all sorts of things. It requires that you be willing to go into the darkness together and abide there, clear-headed.

As I said, this is rough stuff - it needs some work.

On the other hand, there are remarkably positive things: Your Moon opposite his Sun, his Jupiter to your Mars (both of those, btw, show each of you being genuinely supportive and helpful to the other)your Venuses near each other, and the intensity of his Moon to your Pluto on his angles and his Mars opposite your Uranus.
Jim Eshelman
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Re: Gut punch

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 am

Are you still in Tennessee? That's where your IP address seems to originate.

You're going through some serious life shifts. Right now, transiting Saturn is exactly on your IC with Pluto square your Ascendant. Despite what I've said above, we'd expect that you're going through major separations that aren't actually about the relationship (even if that's where the separation occurs) - it's about you, your autonomy, your sense of experiencing yourself in isolation as who you fundamentally are without any blinders. This will take a month or two to work its way through and will come back for a couple of months later in the year. It's an important maturing time that might give its best benefits from your being alone.

At the very least, it demands no {bs} - no trying to paint dark walls a bright color - but naked, candid, stripped-bare self-inspection.

Almost contradicting what I just said, Jupiter is about to square your Venus (before February is over). From that, I'd expect some happiness, especially in matters of love or comfort. (Perhaps these two extremes are not incompatible?)

Where (geographically) to you expect you'll spend your birthday?
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Re: Gut punch

Post by abby » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:31 am

Mr. Eshelman, first of all, thank you so much for this reply - this is even more in-depth than I possibly could’ve hoped for, and this insight is and will continue to be hugely helpful for me. This is the area of my life I struggle in most, the thing I think about more than anything else, and your willingness to dive into all this with me is very special to me.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
Abby, the synastry is not "god-awful." It has some serious problems; it also has some remarkably positive factors.
this is good and I know you’re right, in the face of such unexpectedly difficult factors it’s easy to develop a pessimistic view. It won’t hurt me to be more positive about it.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
It's intense. It will never work as a casual relationship. It demands intensity, presence, focus, and being willing to ride strong waves together. It only will work as equals - both standing equally strong and alive in each other's presence. The synastry is good either for a quick, intense encounter or for a sustained long-term mutual willingness to be gigantic together. There's not really any room in between.
This is definitely exceedingly apparent, it’s the most intense and transformative thing I’ve experienced in my life. I never knew it was possible to have a connection so deeply intense. That being said, the opportunity for a quick encounter has long passed. My life, my friendships and relationships, my worldview have all been totally reshaped by this person. However, from the start theres been no commitment to me here, and there isn’t any now. he didn’t come to me as a lover, never for anything serious for that matter, that was never his intention. He didn’t do anything to influence me to feel this way. That didn’t matter though, in no time, just from talking to him and receiving the things he shared with me, he became my everything, and i became hopelessly devoted, seized by a love I couldn’t control even if I tried. I was done for from the start.

What in his natal chart, by the way, could be responsible for that?

Anywho, he knows i feel this way, and we talk about it - he doesn’t feel the same, but he is kind enough to let me feel how I do, share things with me, connect with me, have pride in me. My feelings for him dance around in my heart, and although he does know how I feel, I keep them mostly to myself. We sometimes talk about me finding someone new to love someday, I say I don’t feel ready to even think of belonging to anyone else, he says well, that’s alright. And so we just let it be, knowing my feelings are there, letting them run their course without really acting on them. I know this may sound like it would be sad, but honestly, I’m not unhappy with the way things are. I feel lucky to have what I do with him. I enjoy the connection i do have with him, I enjoy learning from him, I enjoy our sharing things with each other. I feel safe, protected by him. despite knowing i’ll never really get what i want here, i want only to be as close to him as possible, whatever shape that takes, because i feel that he makes me the very best version of myself I can possibly be. without him I feel lost, things don’t feel right, and even though I can’t be his I would rather have any proximity to him than none at all.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
First, your Mars exactly opposes his Moon. (It's part of a bigger pattern - his Moon-Jupiter to your Mars-Pluto - of which most of the aspects are purely positive or neutrally intense; but Moon-Mars is in its own category. I once wrote of this aspect in synastry that time ends all things including immortal love - a phrase intended to emphasize the intensity, even immortality, of how the connection feels. Moon-Mars is ferociously sexual - ferociously! - no less so given the Mars-Jupiter and Moon-Pluto aspects that go with it. Generally, this relationship demands more or less uninterrupted ferocity that tends to show as {shag}-or-fight. I've sometimes jokingly (exaggeratedly) described this by saying that when you have to catch a breath between rounds, be careful - a fight will work its way in; and I've had people say no, that's not a joke, it's pretty right on. The main thing is that sustained ferocity and intensity is pretty much a requirement of the chemistry between you, each responding to and requiring fairly sustained ferocity of the other. - Yes, it's a hard thing to sustain (everybody gets psychologically tired sometimes) and yes, most such relationships burn out. It takes communication, clear emotions, and intention to keep it working.
To me, This sounds a lot like what we experienced when we first started talking. I had a lot of obstinacy, i pushed his buttons, we argued and argued, and when we weren’t doing that, it was sexual. We’ve come a long way since then! This has cooled off in a huge way (the dynamic is pretty unrecognizable from what it was), mostly through defining clear boundaries for a while and a whole lot of strained communication, but I can’t overlook the viciousness and - precisely, ferocity - that time held.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
Speaking of communication, you have an exact Mercury-Saturn square that falls on his angles (your Saturn not too far from his Mercury). This probably means that you aren't at your communication best around him and, especially, tend not to really listen to him.
despite this not being the most intense configuration we’ve got here, this is probably what hits me the hardest. Nearly every argument or separation we’ve ever had has centered around problems with my communication. At the start, I wasn’t even aware of the array of issues I had with the way I communicated, and even now, I still struggle with it sometimes. If there’s anything that taxes my dynamic with him still, it is definitely communication. It took months of restructuring my habits, and a lot of grace from him when I messed up time and time again, to have the degree of harmony we have now. I’ve changed a lot for the better, but I am still working on it and putting effort every single day into restructuring how I communicate. I definitely want to listen to him and receive what he identifies as a problem; I really want nothing more than to become better and repair the issues he’s shown me I have - and I feel I have gained a lot of ground by doing just that - but even now, much to his (and my) frustration, I still slip up sometimes.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
You are especially aggressive - explosively, perhaps almost impersonally so - around him. This is so strong that it shouldn't be suppressed or blocked - that would only make things worse - but you do need to be mindful of it and consciously wield that potentially explosive aggression.
Again, I think this definitely describes what we experienced at the start, but I think this aspect has cooled down a lot. I don’t feel aggressive toward him at all anymore, I feel purely receptive, but It’s useful to know the potential is there
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
Finally, and perhaps more important than any of these except the Moon-Mars, your Sun conjoins his Saturn. This is a complex aspect that has a very sophisticated, layered meaning. With the other aspects it suggests power struggles - each of you struggling to feel and prove that you have control of things in the relationship (coming from both of you feeling enormous needs for power combined with feeling suppressed, blocked, limited somehow).
At first this kind of confused me, but the more I think about it, I can definitely see it. From the start, my behavior needed a lot of work, and I fought hard against it at first. I was the furthest from receptive one can be. In time, with, as I mentioned, a lot of friction and strained communication, I came to understand that the way he saw things was correct and positive, and once I understood that, I surrendered my obstinacy and wanted only to work on what displeased him. But even recently, even though things have gotten miles better, I’ve made mistakes and he’s all but walked away, only for me to promise that I can address and repair the things that frustrate him. Each time this happens, things do genuinely improve - the problems are so much fewer and far between than they once were, and I think I’ve finally gotten the hang of it all now. Nevertheless, a clear pattern has always been: I mess up, he loses faith and pushes against me, and I push back, promising that I can improve. I never want to stand against him and I don’t feel a need for power, but in this way, a struggle regarding control has repeatedly happened.

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
It requires that you be willing to go into the darkness together and abide there, clear-headed.
For this, for him, I’m more than willing to face anything head on
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:59 pm
On the other hand, there are remarkably positive things: Your Moon opposite his Sun, his Jupiter to your Mars (both of those, btw, show each of you being genuinely supportive and helpful to the other)your Venuses near each other, and the intensity of his Moon to your Pluto on his angles and his Mars opposite your Uranus.
these are indeed so hopeful and lovely - a breath of fresh air!

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Re: Gut punch

Post by abby » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 am
Are you still in Tennessee? That's where your IP address seems to originate.
Yep, still in Memphis.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 am
You're going through some serious life shifts. Right now, transiting Saturn is exactly on your IC with Pluto square your Ascendant. Despite what I've said above, we'd expect that you're going through major separations that aren't actually about the relationship (even if that's where the separation occurs) - it's about you, your autonomy, your sense of experiencing yourself in isolation as who you fundamentally are without any blinders.
At the very least, it demands no {bs} - no trying to paint dark walls a bright color - but naked, candid, stripped-bare self-inspection.
Remember when I said this person completely changed my worldview? That’s certainly still actively happening now. I have been experiencing pressure from all sides, redefining the way I see my future, and definitely getting to know myself more deeply than I ever have before. It all feels intense, like I’m venturing somewhere I’ve never been before, dropping barriers left and right, but despite the pressures and separations, I’ve definitely been finding some positives in myself I couldn’t see before
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 am
Jupiter is about to square your Venus (before February is over). From that, I'd expect some happiness, especially in matters of love or comfort. (Perhaps these two extremes are not incompatible?)
I wasn’t aware of this, and it’s supremely relieving to hear - I could certainly use it.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 am
Where (geographically) to you expect you'll spend your birthday?
It’s kind of funny you ask, I am in the process of planning to relocate my SSR to LA for my birthday (visiting the person in question in the process). I know it’s not looking so hot in memphis.

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Re: Gut punch

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:29 am

Your new Solar Return, set for LA, has a nice Moon-Venus exact opposition near the meridian. Not a bad move!

It sounds like you are presently seeing the relationship mostly through the lens of his Sun opposite your Moon. I think you're being a little blind that the other stuff has quieted down (but, then, you're in the relationship and I'm not).

A great deal of what you're going through seems related to your natal chart more than current patterns - especially to the very strong Neptune activity. Moon squares Neptune within 0°05'. Sun semi-squares Neptune 0°19'. Your Solar Return Moon-Venus is exactly atop your natal Moon-Neptune, so it will be a major factor in your birthday trip to LA (and a strong factor wherever you would be). I suggest you learn everything you can bout Moon-Neptune and Venus-Neptune aspects ahead of that.

You might want to start a new thread for the purpose of digging into your natal chart.
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Re: Gut punch

Post by SteveS » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:50 am

Jim wrote:
You might want to start a new thread for the purpose of digging into your natal chart.
Indeed. I see some important aspects with Solar Arcs to your Natal factors which may help offer you some directions.

Abby, could you elaborate further on your following words:
I feel closer with him than i’ve ever felt with anyone and, despite the fact that we aren’t really “together”,
I am not sure I understand what you mean saying:
we aren’t really “together”,

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Re: Gut punch

Post by abby » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:13 am

I don’t know what to say about the idea that i’m being blind, really. Despite the fact that he has been frustrated with me at times, after the first couple months of talking to him, any aggression I might’ve felt toward him was dropped. Maybe it’s my natal at work or his, or maybe the Mars is just manifesting as pure sexual attraction/fantasy on my end, but I don’t ever feel angry or vicious anymore, I honestly just feel eager to work on any problems that are identified. It does sound strikingly like his Sun to my Moon at work. I want to fulfill all his wishes and expectations, I want badly to be anything he wishes me to be, and I trust him completely to lead me despite there being extremely high stakes and risk of me being hurt in the end. Fulfilling his expectations makes me happier than anything else - not just in the relationship, but in my whole life, making the changes he’s spurred has made everything in my life better, easier to manage. Reading what I first said with the interp for Sun-Moon in mind, It may sound like I’m being controlled or suppressed even, but things aren’t bad this way, I feel good beneath his wing. Maybe this is part of that Sun-Saturn manifesting, too, the whole thing seems pretty dark as described above, but maybe he just represents a state of order for me, a state where my usual neptune fog is cleared and I can follow him instead of getting lost in it.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:29 am
Your new Solar Return, set for LA, has a nice Moon-Venus exact opposition near the meridian. Not a bad move!
Yes, hopefully it makes things a bit more harmonious than they would’ve been before :)
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:29 am
Your Solar Return Moon-Venus is exactly atop your natal Moon-Neptune, so it will be a major factor in your birthday trip to LA (and a strong factor wherever you would be). I suggest you learn everything you can bout Moon-Neptune and Venus-Neptune aspects ahead of that.
This is good to know, thank you, I will familiarize myself with it as well as I can. What with the strength of moon-neptune in my chart i’ve already been working toward understanding moon-neptune as intimately as I possibly can, but I’ll be sure to delve into venus-neptune, too
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:29 am
You might want to start a new thread for the purpose of digging into your natal chart.
Will do.

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Re: Gut punch

Post by abby » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:30 am

SteveS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:50 am

Abby, could you elaborate further on your following words:
I feel closer with him than i’ve ever felt with anyone and, despite the fact that we aren’t really “together”,
I am not sure I understand what you mean saying:
we aren’t really “together”,
Hi Steve, I described it a bit more here:
abby wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:31 am

However, from the start theres been no commitment to me here, and there isn’t any now. he didn’t come to me as a lover, never for anything serious for that matter, that was never his intention. He didn’t do anything to influence me to feel this way. That didn’t matter though, in no time, just from talking to him and receiving the things he shared with me, he became my everything, and i became hopelessly devoted, seized by a love I couldn’t control even if I tried. I was done for from the start.

What in his natal chart, by the way, could be responsible for that?

Anywho, he knows i feel this way, and we talk about it - he doesn’t feel the same, but he is kind enough to let me feel how I do, share things with me, connect with me, have pride in me. My feelings for him dance around in my heart, and although he does know how I feel, I keep them mostly to myself. We sometimes talk about me finding someone new to love someday, I say I don’t feel ready to even think of belonging to anyone else, he says well, that’s alright. And so we just let it be, knowing my feelings are there, letting them run their course without really acting on them. I know this may sound like it would be sad, but honestly, I’m not unhappy with the way things are. I feel lucky to have what I do with him. I enjoy the connection i do have with him, I enjoy learning from him, I enjoy our sharing things with each other. I feel safe, protected by him. despite knowing i’ll never really get what i want here, i want only to be as close to him as possible, whatever shape that takes, because i feel that he makes me the very best version of myself I can possibly be. without him I feel lost, things don’t feel right, and even though I can’t be his I would rather have any proximity to him than none at all.
It was clear from the start he never intended this relationship to be more than a friendship, or at most something casual, but that turned out not to matter. I fell deeply in love anyway. He doesn’t feel that way with me and I knew that from the start, but as my feelings come, we kind of just let them ebb and flow, rather than cutting the whole connection off because of them.

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Re: Gut punch

Post by SteveS » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:00 pm

Thanks abby for more details which I missed with your earlier post. This helps me understand better. I have not looked at his chart but have found the main aspect in your charts which imo is timing your past-- present feelings about your relationships. I will get back with you later on my astrological opinions about the once in a lifetime time frame you experienced recently. Its a good learning example for all of us who are interested in Solar Arcs.

How long have you been studying astrology? Have you read any material on Solar Arcs?

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Re: Gut punch

Post by abby » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:21 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:00 pm
I will get back with you later on my astrological opinions about the once in a lifetime time frame you experienced recently. Its a good learning example for all of us who are interested in Solar Arcs.
Oh thank you so much, this sounds very interesting and useful too, I look forward to it
SteveS wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:00 pm
How long have you been studying astrology? Have you read any material on Solar Arcs?
I’ve been interested in astrology and dabbling around in it for a few years, but studying sidereal more in-depth (and using this forum as a resource) for around 5 months.
I actually haven’t read anything on Solar Arcs though.

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