Novienic Nodal aspects

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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Danica
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Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:16 am

Hypothesis:

Presence [or lack thereof] of conjunction, square or opposition between the Lunar Node (NLN) in one chart and a planet in another, between Novien and Novien (N-N) or between Radix and Novien (N-r), within 5* orb, describes the overall nature and impact of the relationship.

List multiple aspects (if/when existing) by orb, for gradient of what's-strongest; look into all of them together, listed by orb and prioritizing the smallest-orb ones, for he whole-picture view.

The planets involved describe the gist of the relationship.


I would even go as far as to say: If there was nothing else we knew about the contact, except for these aspects, and we list all of the existing inter-aspects by orb for a relationship, it would form enough basis to give us info on the essential nature and impact of the contact (life-long scope) for each of the parties included.

Have embarked upon this as an idea to test, out of the blue, last night, and after running 15 test-examples (pairs of charts), I am left feeling there's something very substantial here, requiring further serious investigation. [I'll share some examples later here]
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:43 am

P.S. I think this has been the missing piece, regarding the Lunar Nodes; if we look at them in H1 only, it doesn't show the whole picture; my findings with it have been consistently showing an interesting mixture of hit & miss: it's been either a miss (nothing there) - more times than not, or a mind-boggling spot-on hit that illuminates the Whole in a new, very valuable, way.

The theory behind why exactly the 9H aspects work - I sure have some, but would rather gather more data first, before venturing into speculating too much on it.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:09 am

In Marion's and my case,

Novien to Novien:
We already have a planet-to-planet complicated system because my Novien Moon-Mercury is right on her Novien Mercury-Uranus, which is hugely descriptive.

But with her Node-Uranus conjunction, this also means her Novien Node 4°23' Libra conjoins my Novien Moon 6°36' Libra and squares my Novien Mercury 6°10' Cancer. I'd have to count these as descriptive and the Node-Moon as quite connecting.

OTOH, my Novien Moon 19°23' Sagittarius most closely conjoins her Novien Pluto 18°00'. Yes, it also conjoins her Novien Moon (23°53' Sagittarius) within the orb specified, but at the wider end of it: The primary impact is Node-Pluto. (I can "make this fit," but it's not the most obvious fit.

I admit that a two-way Moon-Node link is descriptive if we don't think of orbs. I'm hesitant to over-value the second one because the orb is wide (in charts that have numerous aspects much closer) and the Node-Pluto link is much closer and I'd expect it to "own" the day.

Her Natal to My Novien
My Novien Node squares her natal Jupiter 1°25'. Her natal Node does nothing to my Novien.

My Natal to Her Novien
Her Novien Node squares my Jupiter-Uranus. My natal Node conjoins her Pluto.

Afterthoughts
Some preliinary thoughts after looking at these:

The one connection of her Novien Node conjunct my Novien Moon is impressive and catches my attention - a first impression that there is something here.

The others, though, include a mix of "yes, I suppose that could fit" - some more persuasive, some less persuasive - and at least one strong contact that is suspicious. If I were to just line all of these up in order of orb and try to read the relationship from that, I'm not sure I could tell what kind of relationship it would be. In contrast, the simple natal-to-natal is quite descriptive, and the planetary Novien-to-natal contacts (especially her Novien Moon closely square my Sun) is clearly descriptive of the relationship.

One of my current opinions (which could change in the future, as it has changed in the past): I'm sometimes stunned by natal-to-Novien contacts, as I've documented elsewhere on this site, but - to my initial surprise - I've become skeptical of Novien-to-Novien connections. I can't explain why they wouldn't be operative. My reason for thinking this is that I've seen many examples where a very close Novien-to-Novien aspect was completely misrepresentative of a relationship. Novien-to-Novien may have strong correct-seeming aspects but they also have aspects that seem very wrong. Logically, if Novien-to-natal works (and they certainly seem to!) I can't think of a logical reason Novien-to-Novien do not, but experience suggests it has quite wrong aspects. (Marion's and my Moon-Mercury and Mercury-Uranus are an example of these seeming to work really well; but I've run into many such connections that were clearly wrong.) I'm unsettled on this and may change my thinking again in the future.

Another current thought: I do allow a 5° orb within a Novien, and push come to shove I sometimes allow it in synastry, especially for primary connections between luminaries and key planets; but, generally, I'm uncomfortable basing a test like this on so wide an orb. If the case could usually be made with a 3° orb, I'd be much happier.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:18 am

To help keep us aware of the probabilities:

Within a given chart, a single point (the Node or any other) would have a plus-or-minus 5° orb in conjunction, opposition, or square touching 10° x 4 = 40° of the zodiac. On average, there will be 40/360 of a chance of such an aspect existing (one time in nine).

When we take Novien-to-Novien, Natal A to Novien B, and Natal B to Novien A, we have six instances of a Node from which we are measuring an aspect. Thus, such an aspect will exist 6 x 40/360 of time time = 240/360 of 2/3 of the time.

In two chart pairs out of three, there will be some aspect of this type. The question, then, is whether the contact is to a planet that is correctly descriptive of the basic nature of the relationship.

(This seems smaller odds than I expected. I've shown my work in case I've made a mistake someone else can catch.)

I do note that in Marion's and my case there are six aspects (unless I miscounted), which - just on raw number of contacts - is far more than chance (about nine times as many aspects as one would expect in the average case).

You've stirred up an interesting thing to investigate.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:49 pm

My examples, and what got me to consider this seriously:
[the highlighted aspects are under 3*30', which I'd go with as cut-off for the tighter-orb-zone;
5*00 as the orb to consider seems appropriate, though; listing all of them gives a complete picture of the kind that listing only under 3*30' doesn't]


The two hugely important, life-formative relationships, that have overall been characterized in experience for me with feeling unseen, in one way or another suppressed, violated etc from the other side (the other person and their world representing "a burden to carry", and "a limit within which to move" - unconsciously chosen so, for sure, but quite definitely so, I see in retrospect):

--- with my mother, listed by orb, the picture formed by these aspects:
her r Node - my r Ma
her N Node - my r Sa, Pl, Su
her N Node - my N Me
my r Node - her r Su, Me
my N Node - her N Sa


--- with Z.V., the former life-partner:
his r Node - my r Ma
my r Node - his r Mars
my N Node - his N Sa


The five important (life-scope impactful) relationships in my life that are primarily characterized by the teaching-learning dynamics of soul-nourishing kind, and contact with whom has been for me supportive of growth (in the sense of: being aligned with my own authentic needs), enriching, uplifting, all have their Jupiter to my Node, with the four most important among them having Ju-Node both ways!
Three of these will be illustrative to give full aspects-list here:

--- with my father, who taught me astrology, basics of Qabalah, yoga, philosophy, etc from early age, exposed me to various World religions and spiritual systems, played the role of my first mentor and teacher:
his r Node - my r Ju, Ve, Ur
his N Node - my N Ju
my r Node - his r Ju, Ne, Me
my N Node - his N Ju


--- with you Jim, the second-biggest life-impactful teaching-learning relationship in this life for me:
J. N Node - D. N Ju
D. r Node - J. N Ju, Ur
D. N Node - J. N Pl, Ve, Su


--- with a friend and Brother in spirit, C.A., the contact with whom has been profoundly important, mutually healing, uplifting and supporting:
his N Node - my N Ju
my r Node - his r Ve
my N Node - his r Ju

my N Node - his r Ne

When it's my Jupiter and the other person's Node, this same tone of teaching-learning dynamics is present (and predominant, when orbs emphasize it over the other aspects), but with myself being in the mentor/tutor/protector role and the Node person in the student/tutelage-receiver role.

Here's the list for inter-aspects with my daughter:
her N Node - my r Ve, Ju, Ur
her N Node - my N Node
my N Node - her N Su


****************************************************************
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:07 pm

As I go through examples from personal experience, what becomes clear is: relationships that have Saturn involved with the Node as sole or strongest-by-orb factor, are characterized by heaviness, burden, harshness, duty, stern limitation, etc. experienced from the Node side as main characteristic of relationship with the Saturn side.

When there's Jupiter involvement, there's mentorship, tutelage, growth-nurturing and authentic support, as a theme, experienced from Node's side in the relating with the Ju side. (Again, orbs, and presence of other aspects will give the more detailed picture and depict the overall priority-gradient of this factor in the relationship).

I haven't seen enough examples yet to substantiate the same about Mars and Venus, with their peculiar 'effect', but it does make sense that the overall "malefic" and "benefic" tone of the relationship can be easily seen based on predominance of one or the other kind of factors clustering (piling up).
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by SteveS » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:59 pm

Danica wrote:
As I go through examples from personal experience, what becomes clear is: relationships that have Saturn involved with the Node as sole or strongest-by-orb factor, are characterized by heaviness, burden, harshness, duty, stern limitation, etc. experienced from the Node side as main characteristic of relationship with the Saturn side.
Not sure if this fits. My wife was born with Saturn 02,53 Virgo; Node 04,07 PI. This is how this aspect has manifested in her life--still manifesting. She has had to care for 3 close friends, 2 who died of cancer, one dying of cancer now, all much older than herself. If anyone dying needs someone to truly care for them in a very human nurturing caring manner---choose a Woman with an Aquarius Moon if given a choice. Her Saturn partile cnj my Sun appears to have manifested with a long stable marriage. :)

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:19 am

Re orb-gradient: I'd go with 1*30' as the inside-layer cut off, to further distinguish the primary ones inside those under 3*30'.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Hannah » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:35 am

Okay, so I am very overwhelmed by this area of astrology and am very much a tyro... but I thought I'd contribute with the information Danica gave me regarding my partner and my's novienic nodal aspects which is really quite fascinating!!

(Also.. excuse my lack of knowledge on the proper way to write these things)

His Natal Node squares my Natal Pluto 3°02'
My Natal Node conjuncts his Natal Venus 4°20'


From what I remember you saying, Danica.. The Node is like life, a more overarching theme of the impact of the person on my life, or vice versa. I can say that I probably have a transformative effect on my partner's life, while he definitely has a loving and supportive effect on mine.

His Novienic Node conjuncts my Novienic Saturn 39'
His Novenic Node conjuncts my Novienic Moon 3°03'
His Novienic Node squares my Novienic Venus 3°02'
My Novienic Node does not have any aspects with his Novienic Planets


Now, I am not sure how to interpret the difference of the natal node to novien node, but the first thing that pops out of this for me, is my willingness to get hitched with him. I have never been that interested in marriage or child-rearing, but with him, it is like a biological clock started to ring and I found myself proposing the idea of marriage and children to him first. I easily see myself spending the rest of my life with this person.

My Novienic Node conjuncts his Natal Moon 1°28'
My Novienic Node opposes his Natal Mercury 1°31'


Again, unsure how to interpret the differences derived from the novien node, but my life seems to encourage his mercury/moon opposition that is very strong in his natal chart. We sit for hours and hours talking, and I seem to draw out much inspiration for him concerning topics of writing and teaching.

Thanks Danica! Cool stuff, I'll have to learn how to use solar fire soon to look at more of my relationships ;)

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by SteveS » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:52 am

Yes, interesting stuff D. When you have time would you take a look at Me/Wife (Gayle) Novienic Nodal aspects:

Her AA birth: Oct 20, 1950; 11:07 PM; Columbus, Georgia---32N28--084W59

Thanks. :)

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:13 pm

For these to show the full scope of what's their worth, one needs to look into as many different as possible pair listings of relationships from own life (noting of what's there in the "full picture" aspect list between N and rx Nodal connections with planets and Nodes; only conj, sq and opp inside 5* orb), and reflect on the findings in light of experience - and the patterns will start to emerge.

In simplest terms, from what I can see now, the Nodes seem to represent "how the person is affected" and the Planet from the other chart "what kind of affect" is taking place.

I've settled with calling the Lunar Nodes (- so far, on the go) the Connectivity Axis. These are points on the ecliptic where the Soli-Lunar paths intersect, so symbolically, those are the meeting points of the polarized currents/ergies in our psyche. (Theoretically, they could be hence connected to Art and Creativity as such - a field to investigate on its own!)

What I've found about the Nodal contacts:
- the nature of all planets involved, taken as a group to portray a single picture, depicts the essential nature of the contact;
- the Planet tends to function as active/giving, while the Node as the receiving part of the interchange; yet the inner polarization may be flippant (- I need to look into this more).
- the level/scope at which these operate: it seems that these aspects depict the nature of contact in its simplest terms, and on the general, life-scope level. They don't give much details; they paint a crude, but sharply clear overall picture.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by SteveS » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:19 pm

Daniac wrote:
I've settled with calling the Lunar Nodes (- so far, on the go) the Connectivity Axis.
Without a doubt! My same experience by tracking the Lunar Node aspects in my life with my natal and Sidereal Astrology return charts.

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:28 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:52 am
Yes, interesting stuff D. When you have time would you take a look at Me/Wife (Gayle) Novienic Nodal aspects:

Her AA birth: Oct 20, 1950; 11:07 PM; Columbus, Georgia---32N28--084W59

Thanks. :)
Steve ---- Gayle

r Ve - N Node 20'
N Sa - N Node 31'
r Su - N Node 1*16'
r Su - r Node 1*17'
r Ur - r Node 2*01'
r Node - r Ju 2*24'
r Ve - r Node 3*19'
r Ur - N Node 5*00'
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by SteveS » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:44 pm

Brings blessed tears to my eyes D. Thanks Kid. :)

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Arena » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:11 am

Yes this topic is a very interesting one and worth looking into. I've always looked at the Nodes as a very important point of relationships. But I would like to encourage you to also look into the nodal contacts of the directed natal charts. I don't remember exactly how to cast the Novien, but I'm guessing that the same aspects will be shown simply by casting a 9th harmonic chart for both parties, so I'm using those.
As I go through examples from personal experience, what becomes clear is: relationships that have Saturn involved with the Node as sole or strongest-by-orb factor, are characterized by heaviness, burden, harshness, duty, stern limitation, etc. experienced from the Node side as main characteristic of relationship with the Saturn side.
I can indeed tell you that this is the feeling I have now from my ex relationship with my children's father. Maybe not harshness (although the past year of communication has been difficult), but really characteristic of duty & limitation. But it is by his n. Saturn exact on my EP and I do think that we can not isolate the Nodes - we have to take all contacts to the angles as well to really get a fuller picture of a relationship. Our angles as well as nodes activate that planet in the other's chart and vice versa.

I am using the 9th harmonic chart to read the aspects

He is H:
A ------ H
A r. Node partile 0,37 sq H Pluto
A r. ASC 5,28 conj H r Node
A r. Uranus 4,33 sq H r Node
A r. Saturn 4,15 sq H N node
A r. Node 3,24 sq H r Nep

A N Node 0,31 opp H r Moon
A N Node 0,26 sq H r Jup
A N Nep 2,58 sq H r Node

A N Sun 0,00 sq H N Node
A N Node 0,01 opp H N Mars
A N Node 1,08 opp H N Mer

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:26 am

Arena wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:11 am
I don't remember exactly how to cast the Novien, but I'm guessing that the same aspects will be shown simply by casting a 9th harmonic chart for both parties, so I'm using those.
You can use these for Novien to Novien aspects; but Novien to Natal requires a chart that would look like the 9h one Solar Fire gives but rotated 120* ahead in the zodiac, so for example, a planet shown in this chart to be at 15* Taurus is at 15* Virgo in Novien.
You only need to know where is the Node, for this specific analysis between the charts; and see if something from the other person's Natal touches it by sq, opp or cnj inside 5*.

I have two info for your birth data in my file: 23:20 and 23:40. Which time is correct, and do you have the Birth Certificate information available?
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Arena » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:26 am

Hey again Danica.
My registered birth time is 23.40. I've been experimenting with an earlier birth time because I've so often found that it fits better... but have not come to a final conclusion yet :)

Moving the 9H forward 120° would mean that his N Node is partile conj my n. Mars and Mer is within 3° and my n. Moon would be squaring his N Node.

Moving my 9H Node forward 120° would mean that it is conjunct his r. Node.

Since I'm born before him I directed my chart to his birthday to see where my d. Node falls onto his birth chart. My d. Node is 2,31 opp his r. Moon.
My d. Node is 2,43 sq his Jup.
My d. Sun/Moon is 1,01 conj his r. Node
My d. Jup is 1,13 opp his r. Node, Pluto squares it and my Venus is conjunct it.

It is pretty obvious by all counts that all in all we connect as a couple. With the Moon&Jup contacts it may be our children. However the fact that his r. Saturn is exact on my EP and my r. Saturn is widely sq his 9h node probably did make it both long term (for me 12 yrs is VERY long), but also very serious, the duty may in the end have made us both feel it as a burden.

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Arena » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:02 am

If you want to investigate nodal contacts in the harmonic chart, you should always note the normal 9th harmonic as well. It is widely used in the vedic astrological tradition and worth examining.

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Danica » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:06 am

Arena wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:02 am
If you want to investigate nodal contacts in the harmonic chart, you should always note the normal 9th harmonic as well. It is widely used in the vedic astrological tradition and worth examining.
Yes, 9H to 9H gives much more info than this 'lens'-technique I described in this thread; I think it's a valid (and valuable!) synastry tool, and do consider it, but prefer calling the specific form of 9H that I'm working with the Novien, to emphasize the Zodiac alignment of this chart.
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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Arena » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:05 am

Just got back to this thread now and want to share findings of the Nodal Novien contacts with my new partner. Although I must say there are plenty of great contacts by analysing our synastry and solar arc directed charts - also with our nodes.

The star of this Nodal show is his Novien Venus 0,01° conjunct my Novien Node.
My Novien Venus, however, is 5,41° conjunct his Novien Venus.

The natal charts.
My Sat partile sq his r. Node.
His Mer 4,13° conj. my r. Node.

My Novien to his natal:
Novien Sat sq his r. Node
Novien Node sq his r. Saturn

His Novien to my natal:
Novien SNode conj r. Pluto and squared by my Ven&Jup - Novien Nodes are in my Ven-Jup/Pluto T square.
Novien Nodes are square my r ASC.
Novien Mer wide square my r Nodes.

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Re: Novienic Nodal aspects

Post by Arena » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:18 am

Noting the nodal aspects with my three children.

Inter-aspects with my oldest:
his r Nodes conj my r Nodes
his N Mer conj my r Node
his N Node conj my r Moon sq my r Mer
his N Venus partile conj my N Node
my N Node partile conj his r Jup-Pluto
my N Node sq his r Sun-Mer

Inter-aspects with my middle son:
his r Nodes conj my r Sun
his N Node sq my r Sat
his N Node sq my N Sat
my N Node partile 0,01° sq his N Sun and wider sq his N Sat

Inter-aspects with my daughter:
her r Node conj my r Ven-Jup and sq Pluto
her r Node conj my N Mer - my N Node
her N Node partile sq my N Mar-Nep
my N Node sq her N Nep and opp N Uranus

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