How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Q&A and discussion about Synastry, i.e., relationship analysis through the comparison of two horoscopes.
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Jim Eshelman
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How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:09 am

On my mind lately has been a new layer of examining the impact of one person's nativity on another's. In my mind, it's the most important insight I've had into synastry in the last 30 years or, maybe, ever. I've proposed a possible report to assist in this when Mike starts adding synastry features to TMSA but, in any case, I want to describe the method for your consideration.

It's a method of more uniquely identifying what an interchange (co-aspect) means in the context of a specific person's natal chart - things we miss or don't think of when applying interchange interpretations more generically. It relies on principles with which everyone probably agrees, builds on what we already understand of aspects, and shows us - at a glance, intuitively! - where the specific interchange falls in terms of impact in a specific person's life and psyche.

Consider the following: When we meet and begin to interact with a person, we arrive having already our natal horoscope and its aspects. If one of your planets aspects one of my planets that natally has few (or wide) aspects, then your planet will have a much more powerful impact than my own planets. For example, my Sun is essentially unaspected: If someone's planet aspects my Sun, they have a stronger impact on it than anything in my chart except its Virgo sign placement.

Similarly - same principle - any planet you have aspecting my planet comes into a psyche / person / chart system that already has various configurations on my planet. My mix of aspects is much more complicated than simply the planet interchange. If you brought Jupiter to my Venus and I already had Venus conjunct Saturn, I would react differently than someone who, say, had a Venus-Moon aspect instead.

In some ways, this "how do you take into consideration each person's natal chart when judging synastry," or "how do you really consider what they are bringing to the relationship," is the long sought Golden Fleece of synastry. Everyone says you should do it - and nobody has proposed a way of doing it (other than the Tropical-heavy idea of house rulerships in which your Uranus on my Sun means it affects my Sun-ruled 12th house and your Uranus-ruled 11th house - which is rubbish). Repeat: I don't know of anyone ever providing an actual method of discerning what each person brings to the mix of energies other than the reasonable global overview of read the entire chart and get an idea what kind of person this is and what they want in a relationship. (And this approach, as theoretically sound as it is, remains, at best, unsatisfying in real-world practice.)

But there's an easy way to do - an absurdly easy way!

Simply collate the interchange into the table of "planetary state" TMSA will soon have - i.e., add the interchange into a natal aspect sort by relative strength - and the astrologer will intuitively, quickly, and accurately know what to do with it!

Consider: My wife's Venus opposes my Mercury 2°08' and her Mercury opposes my Venus 3°22'. At first look, the aspects are straightforward and accurate: Smooth, flowing, fluid communication has come easy to us since we first met. When we were building our relationship, we'd spend hours (often until dawn) talking together non-stop.

But it's more complicated than that. Even ignoring for a moment that her Mercury and Venus each have their own very strong aspects, these planets are aspecting my own Venus and Mercury with their own aspects. For example, my Mercury has one natal aspect, a 2°24' conjunction with Saturn. The more deeply I settled into connection with my wife, the more my Mercury was also in 2°08' opposition to Venus (in this case, her Venus). This means that my Mercury changed from one aspected only by Saturn to one aspected by Saturn and (almost as closely) Venus.

Just how much weight do I give this "new" aspect? (This is always an important question, right?) The answer is that, if I collate the interchange into my list of things affecting my Mercury, it will become quickly obvious to me - I don't need new rules - it will simply be evident to me. I will be able to see, usually at a glance, how strongly that one aspect affects my Mercury, and almost as quickly see how important it seems in my overall psyche. It's a strong measurement of exactly how I "become a different person" while in relationship with her.

Here is a concrete example. First, I will create a "state" report similar to what I think TMSA will soon have. This is just my natal chart:

Code: Select all

Mo Aqu FG | sx Ma 1°31'   tr Ve 4°29'   tr Ur 5°56'   tr Ju 6°13'   
Su Vir    | sq Ma 6°28'   co Ne 8°53'   
Me Lib    | co Sa 2°24'   
Ve Sco-   | co Pl 0°13'   tr Ur 1°27'   tr Ju 1°44'   sx Ma 2°57'   tr Mo 4°29' 
Ma Sag    | sq Ne 0°07'   sx Mo 1°31'   sx Ve 2°57'   op Ur 4°45'   op Ju 4°41'   sq Su 6°28'   
Ju Can+   | co Ur 0°17'   tr Ve 1°44'   sq Ne 2°16'   op Ma 4°41'   tr Mo 6°13'   
Sa Lib+   | co Me 2°24'   
Ur Can    | co Ju 0°17'   tr Ve 1°27'   sq Ne 2°00'   op Ma 4°45'   tr Mo 5°56'   
Ne Lib    | sq Ma 0°07'   sx Pl 0°46'   sq Ur 2°00'   sq Ju 2°16'   sq Ma 0°07'   co Su 8°53'   
Pl Leo    | co Ve 0°13'   sx Ne 0°46' 

Now, I'm going to modify it only by adding the aspects (the ones I consider valid in synastry) that my wife's planets make to my chart. This will tell you the "different person" I am to the extent I'm in relationship with her, and also show how her aspects to my chart fit into the mix and balance of how my chart is on its own.

In the following table, I have not calculated mundane aspects (of her planet to mine in the framework of my chart), but perhaps I should. In a case where I have planet A aspect planet B, and she also has B aspect my A, I have gone with the smaller orb (e.g., my 0°46' Neptune-Pluto sextile wins over her 1°00' semi-square of Pluto to my Neptune).

Code: Select all

Mo Aqu FG | sx Ma 1°31'   tr Ve 4°29'   tr Ur 5°56'   tr Ju 6°13'   
Su Vir    | oc Ur 0°21'   op Ju 4°30'   sq Ma 6°28'   co Ne 8°53'   
Me Lib    | co Ne 2°04'   op Ve 2°07'   co Sa 2°24'   
Ve Sco-   | co Pl 0°13'   oc Ju 1°05'   tr Ur 1°27'   sq Ma 1°58'   sq Sa 3°00'   co Me 4°22'   tr Mo 4°29'   
Ma Sag    | oc Su 0°06'   sq Ne 0°07'   oc Pl 1°25'   sx Mo 1°31'   sx Ve 2°57'   op Ur 4°45'   op Ju 4°41'   
Ju Can+   | co Ur 0°17'   tr Ve 1°44'   sq Ne 2°16'   op Ma 4°41'   tr Mo 6°13'   
Sa Lib+   | co Me 2°24'   co Ne 4°29'   op Ve 4°31'   
Ur Can    | co Ju 0°17'   tr Ve 1°27'   sq Ne 2°00'   op Ma 4°45'   tr Mo 5°56'   
Ne Lib    | sq Ma 0°07'   oc Mo 0°21'   sx Pl 0°46'   sq Ur 2°00'   sq Ju 2°16'   sq Ma 0°07'   co Su 8°53'   
Pl Leo    | co Ve 0°13'   sx Ne 0°46'   co Ma 1°45'   oc Ju 0°52'   sq Sa 3°14'   sq Me 4°35'   co Ur 5°01'

What kind of difference does this make? For one huge difference, look at my Sun in the two charts and think how you would interpret the natal Sun of those "two people." Or notice how her Saturn square my Venus, though not a very wide orb, is only the fifth-strongest aspect to my Venus and takes a proportionately minor role, while her wider Jupiter opposition to my Sun (because of where it falls in the mix of my chart) is dramatically more important). Or how her Jupiter to my Venus makes my natal Venus-Jupiter stronger (and, by nature of the aspect, more dynamic). There is much to see!

For another example, here is my "state" report with Mikestar13's aspects to my planets added in. Look at how it shifts attention on my Moon. Notice that his Mars to my Neptune doesn't even appear - seems to have no effect - because my own Mars-Neptune is already much stronger. Similarly, his Mars to my Moon pales before my closer natal Moon-Mars, but his Moon to my Jupiter-Uranus is much stronger than my natal Moon-Jupiter and Moon-Uranus. There's more to see:

Code: Select all

Mo Aqu FG | sx Ma 1°31'   op Ju 3°22'   tr Ve 4°29'   tr Ur 5°56'   
Su Vir    | sq Ma 6°28'   co Ne 8°53'   
Me Lib    | oc Ju 1°30'   co Sa 2°24'   
Ve Sco-   | co Pl 0°13'   oc Su 0°39'   tr Ur 1°27'   tr Ju 1°44'   sx Ma 2°57'   tr Mo 4°29' 
Ma Sag    | sq Ne 0°07'   sq Me 0°46'   sx Mo 1°31'   sx Ve 2°57'   op Ur 4°45'   op Ju 4°41'   sq Su 6°28'   
Ju Can+   | co Ur 0°17'   sq Mo 1°19'   oc Sa 1°29'   tr Ve 1°44'   sq Ne 2°16'   sq Me 3°56'   op Ma 4°41'   
Sa Lib+   | oc Ju 0°54'   co Me 2°24'   
Ur Can    | co Ju 0°17'   sq Mo 1°02'   tr Ve 1°27'   oc Sa 1°46'   sq Ne 2°00'   sq Me 3°39'   op Ma 4°45'   
Ne Lib    | sq Ma 0°07'   sx Pl 0°46'   op Mo 0°58'   sq Me 1°39'   sq Ur 2°00'   sq Ju 2°16'   sq Ma 0°07'   co Su 8°53'   
Pl Leo    | co Ve 0°13'   oc Su 0°26'   sx Ne 0°46' 
It seems to me that this is a worthwhile approach.
Jim Eshelman
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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:14 am

I'm making a copy of my basic planetary state below because I want it conveniently available for me to test with other charts. (Everybody else can ignore this duplication.)

Code: Select all

Mo Aqu FG | sx Ma 1°31'   tr Ve 4°29'   tr Ur 5°56'   tr Ju 6°13'   
Su Vir    | sq Ma 6°28'   co Ne 8°53'   
Me Lib    | co Sa 2°24'   
Ve Sco-   | co Pl 0°13'   tr Ur 1°27'   tr Ju 1°44'   sx Ma 2°57'   tr Mo 4°29' 
Ma Sag    | sq Ne 0°07'   sx Mo 1°31'   sx Ve 2°57'   op Ur 4°45'   op Ju 4°41'   sq Su 6°28'   
Ju Can+   | co Ur 0°17'   tr Ve 1°44'   sq Ne 2°16'   op Ma 4°41'   tr Mo 6°13'   
Sa Lib+   | co Me 2°24'   
Ur Can    | co Ju 0°17'   tr Ve 1°27'   sq Ne 2°00'   op Ma 4°45'   tr Mo 5°56'   
Ne Lib    | sq Ma 0°07'   sx Pl 0°46'   sq Ur 2°00'   sq Ju 2°16'   co Su 8°53'   
Pl Leo    | co Ve 0°13'   sx Ne 0°46' 
Jim Eshelman
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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Veronica » Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:55 pm

Wow.
Thank you for this.
I never really grasped how hard it must be for people who are in my life to gain my unique aspects themselves.
That must be utterly terrifying for some people.
I'm sorry if I have ugly aspects to any of you and you are just being polite.

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Danica » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:24 am

Veronica wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:55 pm
Wow.
Thank you for this.
I never really grasped how hard it must be for people who are in my life to gain my unique aspects themselves.
That must be utterly terrifying for some people.
I'm sorry if I have ugly aspects to any of you and you are just being polite.
Your aspects, exactly as they are, are reflection of Perfection of the Universe.
And our interactions - the processes happening in our interchanges - are the "food" of the ongoing al-chemical processes that we call the movement of Life.
Nothing to be sorry about any of it - quite to the contrary! :D
Amate Se Mutuo Cum Corda Ardentia

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:13 am

Veronica, I haven't checked whether our inter-aspects are ugly or not, but the way you treat me has never been.
Time matters

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:23 am

I haven't worked out details yet, but I have now definitely decided synastry will be the focus of version 0.6 of TMSA, but the upcoming cosmic state report in version 0.4.5 will be a good head start, and the predictive techniques in version 0.5 will provide both learning and some reusable code.
Time matters

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Veronica » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:05 am

Danica wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:24 am
Veronica wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:55 pm
Wow.
Thank you for this.
I never really grasped how hard it must be for people who are in my life to gain my unique aspects themselves.
That must be utterly terrifying for some people.
I'm sorry if I have ugly aspects to any of you and you are just being polite.
Your aspects, exactly as they are, are reflection of Perfection of the Universe.
And our interactions - the processes happening in our interchanges - are the "food" of the ongoing al-chemical processes that we call the movement of Life.
Nothing to be sorry about any of it - quite to the contrary! :D
Thank you, it is a blessing to receive the gifts of your friendship!

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Veronica » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:13 am

mikestar13 wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 9:13 am
Veronica, I haven't checked whether our inter-aspects are ugly or not, but the way you treat me has never been.
Thank you for saying so Mike. :)

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Arena » Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:15 am

The Magi astrology society puts a great emphasis on this kind of astrology. Their focus is the tightest aspects the two individuals make, not really the houses. They also look at geometry created within the charts.

They identified what they call super aspects. Enhancing aspects. F.ex. Jup-Pluto enhancement is 'super success aspect' while Jup-Uranus is 'super fame aspect'.

You would probably not like their approach of 'good & bad' aspects. Anyway it's an interesting read.

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Veronica » Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:08 am

Interesting info Arena,
I really resonated with what Jim was explaining and showing us here with TMSA charts. It seemed to echo an idea that I had deep down about picking up traits/aspects from relationships.

It would be very interesting to me to see Jim and Mike break down you and your Lover in TMSA and demonstrate this method. I say this because you do seem to me to have picked up a lot of aspects since your new lover, that do not seem to be solely displayed in your personal charts.
Unfortunately you do not know your correct birthtime though, so that really puts a damper on the accuracy of your charts.

I googled Magi Astrology and found a site that IMO was not a pleasant or easy to understand site and didnt find any article relatable to Jim's methods. I'm not even sure they are Sidereal astrologers, and if not then they aren't using the correct time and correct methods for comparison.

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Arena » Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:53 am

Thank you for responding Veronica. Yes it is interesting to find ways to interpret how people can bring out or emphasize aspects when interacting with each others' charts. Whether this is the case in my new relationship and the changes that have happened within myself, I don't know - but it could be a combination of that as well as my own solar arcs, transits and solar returns. I'm not sure how to do this TMSA method. I believe a combination of methods is required to see the whole picture in synastry. Maybe this one will turn out to be a good method combined with composite, progressed composites etc.

I also find it very interesting to look at the directed solar arc chart of the older person in a relationship to the natal chart of the younger person. This is so very interesting in my case. I'm seven years older than him, so when I direct my chart to his birthday I see many VERY important features emerge. My Jupiter-Venus opposition comes to his ASC/DSC. With Jup being partile his ASC. My dir. Moon comes into an almost partile opposition to his n. Moon (1.07). My dir. Sun comes into a partile trine to his Venus and my Nnode comes into partile conj. to his Sun-Mars.

It's true that the Magi society website is not very good. It's a bit chaotic. Here is a little book I read a few years back, in case you're interested. https://magiastrology.com/mini-book.php
It doesn't really matter if people are using sidereal astrology or tropical when it comes to just looking at planetary interaction and aspects being made in synastry.

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Re: How Am I Changed When in a Relationship?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:16 am

Arena wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:53 am
I also find it very interesting to look at the directed solar arc chart of the older person in a relationship to the natal chart of the younger person.
In theory, this should work. I've long known that quotidian secondary progressions of each person's chart to the moment and place of the other's birth gives sometimes wonderful results.

Directing my chart to Marion's birth isn't impressive, though. The one aspect is d Sun co. r Neptune, which isn't descriptive. But converse-directing her chart to my birth is pretty remarkable, starting with d Sun co. r Asc and d Venus-Neptune sq. r MC. Other contacts include d Moon-Pluto co. r Uranus, d Mercury co/op r Venus-Neptune.

My longest-term relationship did have my converse directed Moon to my natal Venus-Pluto.
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