2018 Cansolar

Q&A and discussion on Sidereal Solar & Lunar Ingresses, and transits & quotidian progressions of solar ingress.
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2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:29 pm

Here is the breakdown of what we find in Washington's new Cansolar July 16, 2018.
  • Moon on Asc 0°22'
  • Saturn on IC 8°40'
  • Moon-Neptune sq. 0°16' PVP
  • Moon-Venus sq. 1°45' PVP
  • Venus-Neptune op. 2°08' PVP
By supplanting the Arisolar, Sun's Cancer ingress relieves us of the Moon-Mars + Moon-Saturn severity of the prior quarter. Worldwide, it also quiets the volatility of last year's worldwide Mars-Uranus Cansolar themes. The new Cansolar is much more benign.

For Washington, the new Cansolar has Moon exactly rising (0°22') in 0°16' PVP square to Neptune, part of a Moon-Venus-Neptune PVP T-square. Saturn is widely foreground. This construct primarily suggests passionate waves of populism sweeping us toward the fall elections.

Moon foreground shows powerful response by the masses feeling strongly about things, the herd’s collective will, surging up powerfully from mass mind. Human-interest stories move the public emotionally to an unusual degree and children are highlighted in the news (so, for example, the current story about immigrant children being separated from their families likely will continue. Moon-Neptune reiterates extreme waves of emotional reaction, fervor, herd-mind arousal, and even hysteria accompanied by confusion, disorientation, uncertainty, and an undermined sense of security. Venus-Neptune signals intense devotion, passionate belief, compelling fantasy or role-playing, and performance art; disillusionment, betrayed alliances, perceived offenses, diplomatic embarrassment, or loss of esteem.
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Arena » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:06 am

I would think the Moon-Neptune aspect stands for the American public being both very confused by their presidents actions as well as hugely embarrassed. The Americans I've met over here are very apologetic and It is obvious that they are really embarrassed. Other European people I know have told me the same.

Since I can't do ingress charts now...might I ask you guys to make a new thread with 2019 Capsolar and Cansolar? I am wondering where the upcoming Saturn-Pluto conjunction will be angular in the Cansolar? I believe that might be the timing for an economic recession and possibly outbreak of a new war. The tropical Cansolar shows me a conjunction of Sat and Pl in opposition to Mars&Mer, looks very grim. But the sidereal ingress has Mars in a wide distance from that opposition.

I believe we will also see a huge loss of human lives, beyond the occasional tornado, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions... I think next year we will see unusually many occurrences of these on the Saturn-Pluto lines and also where those planets square the ingress chart angles and around them.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:42 am

Arena wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:06 am
Since I can't do ingress charts now...might I ask you guys to make a new thread with 2019 Capsolar and Cansolar? I am wondering where the upcoming Saturn-Pluto conjunction will be angular in the Cansolar? I believe that might be the timing for an economic recession and possibly outbreak of a new war.
I'll do my regular new thread on the 2019 Capsolar in early January, but I'll give you the main points you request here.

At the Capsolar (January 15, 2019, 6:09:58 AM EST), the Saturn-Pluto is still 10° apart, so that aspect per se isn't an issue. However, both planets have secondary impact (angular, but not that angular) for the U.S. in different ways. Here is the break-down for Washington:

Uranus on IC 2°36'
Sun on EP 1°33'
Mercury, Saturn, Pluto more widely angular
-- Sun-Pluto conj. 2°31' in mundo
-- -- Su/Pl on EP 0°21' in RA
-- Mercury-Pluto conj. 2°35' in mundo
-- Mercury-Saturn conj. 2°46'

The 2019 Cansolar occurs July 17, 2019, 5:17:03 PM EDT. For the world, it has an exact Moon-Uranus square (0°19'). For the U.S., it's dormant - no other contribution of note, meaning that the Arisolar persists for the U.S. Now, THAT chart (April 15, 2019, 2:17:20 AM) is the one that concentrates the severity on the U.S.! Saturn is 0°04' above Asc, Pluto is 2°29' below, and they are conjunct (slightly closer mundanely than ecliptically). For the U.S., the Arisolar covers the six months April 15 to October 18 and it won't be pretty!

Worldwide, the Arisolar has Saturn-Pluto angular in Central America (roughly Guatemala down to Nicaragua, but the whole region), western Cuba, Florida, and up to the U.S. (Whatever happens geopolitically or economically, this sounds like horrible hurricane damage across the whole region). In Europe, is strikes high, through upper Scandinavia (but not too far from Iceland - you might want to see just how close it is in Reyk). In Asia, it comes down through several -stans, especially hitting Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the whole body of India. New Zealand gets it on IC squarely - really squarely (Saturn exactly through Auckland and Wellington) - one might almost anticipate the eradication of New Zealand. The MC will also have important impact: Great Britain, a tip of France, the body of Spain (from these, one expects Brexit consequences on Britain and the EU), then western Africa (Morocco down to Ivory Coast).

With such economic centers as the U.S., Britain, and the EU center being so impacted, a large economic catastrophe is hardly out of the question. Saturn-Pluto isn't typical for economic crises, except that Saturn itself is. Saturn-Pluto at the solar ingress level carries an almost apocalyptic feel, a sense of unrecoverable devastation, which is easiest to grasp in climate/weather terms but could, of course, also be profoundly severe economic matters.

Russia is strangely protected from this part. Its Arisolar is dormant and has a mundane Moon-Jupiter square that the world in general doesn't have. China also has a dormant Arisolar.


Switching to the Cansolar... Ecliptically, the aspect is 5° wide. We wouldn't even count it in an ingress. Of much greater interest to me is the partile Venus-Saturn opposition, which (depending on where it falls angular) will be the most severe effects of the year. I've looked for places where the Saturn-Pluto becomes much closer mundanely and don't find them: Saturn-Pluto concentrates out of the Arisolar, not the Cansolar. But let's look for places the Venus-Saturn lands angular, as well as the separate (not aspect-connected) Pluto.

These miss most (not all) of the economic-leader areas. For example, the Saturn-Pluto on IC (and Venus on MC) cuts through Alaska and little else. Venus-Saturn setting, though, slices through nearly the entire body of South America, entering around Santiago, Chile and exiting through Surinam. Sun-Venus-Saturn-Pluto squeeze together through upper Scandinavia, otherwise missing Europe altogether, then turn south through the body of China. Venus-Saturn and the separate Pluto straddle the Philippines, and pass through central Australia.

Russia has a Pluto line. Of all the lines running through China, it is the Sun line that hits Beijing most squarely. Meanwhile, the U.S. is still feeling the Arisolar due to the Cansolar's dormancy. The Venus-IC and Saturn-MC passes through Turkey, then down the eastern edge of Africa.
The tropical Cansolar
As a point of formality, the terms like "Cansolar" are unique to the Sidereal system, not just because they were coined for it but because (thankfully) the Tropical mundane astrology community never picked them up. "Summer Solstice" chart (which, of course is "Winter Solstice" for half the globe) or "Cancer Ingress" are the preferred terms.

But I knew what you meant :)
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:42 pm

I should, perhaps, add that Saturn-Pluto combinations are most common for the following categories of events: Disasters in General, Earthquakes, War, Populist Uprisings & Suppressions, Massacres. These are big deal crises, for which the following interpretation is typical:
Harsh, dramatic tragedies or hardship with a sometimes apocalyptic feel: catastrophic disasters with profound feelings of irrevocable loss or separation. (Earthquakes, hurricanes, wars, riots.)
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Arena » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:47 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:42 pm
I should, perhaps, add that Saturn-Pluto combinations are most common for the following categories of events: Disasters in General, Earthquakes, War, Populist Uprisings & Suppressions, Massacres. These are big deal crises, for which the following interpretation is typical:
Harsh, dramatic tragedies or hardship with a sometimes apocalyptic feel: catastrophic disasters with profound feelings of irrevocable loss or separation. (Earthquakes, hurricanes, wars, riots.)
Thanks Jim. I see there was a valid reason to my instinctual worries.

Yes. I listed those above, but this is going to be so widely felt/experienced, it is beyond what we have been witnessing in recent years. I can feel it in my bones, something huge is coming. I think it will also be a huge economic impact.

Russia might feel"blessed" since they won't have the floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, fires and all the natural catastrophes we will see in coming year/s. I believe we will soon see the ice in the polar regions melt at a much more rapid rate than has been projected/predicted so far, which will cause sea levels to rise very rapidly and we will need to seek homes at higher ground.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:57 am

Jim wrote:
For the U.S., it's dormant - no other contribution of note, meaning that the Arisolar persists for the U.S. Now, THAT chart (April 15, 2019, 2:17:20 AM) is the one that concentrates the severity on the U.S.! Saturn is 0°04' above Asc, Pluto is 2°29' below, and they are conjunct (slightly closer mundanely than ecliptically). For the U.S., the Arisolar covers the six months April 15 to October 18 and it won't be pretty!
Relative to my life experiences, I learned in the commodity world, Saturn-Pluto is/can be associated with dramatic shortages. We all know the globe's weather is getting very crazy. Since the Arisolar is associated with Springtime, my mind in Spring of 2019 will be very focused on the weather occurring in the 'food belt' region of the USA. I was taught a long time ago, if a severe drought ever occurred in the 'food belt' growing region of the USA, beginning in the Spring Time (seed planting time), food prices would quadruple. I also was taught that the most strategic spot on the entire Planet was in the Mideast which is supplying the West most of its energy sources (Oil). If for some reason this pipeline of Oil (Straits of Hormuz), the price of gas/oil would quadruple overnight. We have a Madman as Prez with his relocated DC Natal Asc and Mars partile cnj. It is obvious to Sidereal Astrologers, how Trump is using his rising Mars in DC on the World Stage, its with the USA military might! Will this same Mars threat (War) work with Iran? We don't know. But with Jim's keen symbolic observations with this Arisolar, I damn sure will be focused on the situation with Iran/Trump/USA. The most sensitive commodity on the Planet is Oil! And, without the Mideast energy source the West's economic engine comes to a grinding halt! I was told a long time ago if this Mideast Oil Pipeline was ever cut off, the West would immediately respond with its War Machine(s). Look what the Bush's did when this Mideast Oil supply was put into danger in the past. An ancient Chinese saying--meant as a 'curse.' "May you live in interesting Time." We are certainly living--not only in 'interesting times' but very dangerous times, and it does not take a genius to know the dangerous times we are living in.

As I have stated on this forum many, many times: Never in my astrological life studies have I ever seen a more reliable forecasting mundane astrological system as Jim's work on Sidereal Mundane Astrology with Sidereal Solar Ingresses, when properly analyzed/studied. We may not the exact specifics of what is going to happen with a heavy malefic Saturn-Pluto ingress, but our minds can at least stay abreast of Jim's SMA work to plan as best as our individual environments will allow us, using the most practical means at our individual disposal. So far, Trump has been able to win-out on all his malefic astro cycles, it literally amazes me as an astrologer how Trump has been a win-out so far, but, DC's 2019 Arisolar may be Trump's biggest hurdle yet...

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:18 am

BTW, Steve, Texas has recently passed the combination of Iran and Iraq for the amount of oil production - not sure if that was in general, or just in the U.S. supply line. Saw the report a week or two ago.
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:08 am

Jim wrote:
BTW, Steve, Texas has recently passed the combination of Iran and Iraq for the amount of oil production - not sure if that was in general, or just in the U.S. supply line. Saw the report a week or two ago.
I no longer keep abreast of any kind of commodity news anymore, no need too. But I have a cousin who lives in Houston who was in the oil refinery business who would maybe know for sure, but he also has been long retired. I will e-mail him to see if he can supply confirmed details. Both me and my cousin was told in 1977 by a former high government official there would be no way the Western economies could survive a prolonged cut-off of Mideast Oil. I really don't know if this is still true today (way over the hill in age :) ), but I know the Oil futures market would know, and maybe my cousin. I think it was the great Saudi Oil fields which the former government official said something to the effect: No matter what you read or hear in the news--never believe that the Western economies can survive without Saudi Oil supply, although I know your above statement has no factors with Saudi Oil Supply. I know this: Americans are burning rivers of gasoline on daily basis on the highways. Thanks for this info Jim, could one day be important to know.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:19 pm

Pertaining to Jim’s very important post in this topic about DC’s 2019 Arisolar with acute angular Saturn-Pluto symbolism; take a good look at this past history related to another acute Saturn-Pluto Sidereal Solar Ingress:

Oil embargo (gas shortages in US), Fall 1973.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

1973 DC Libsolar (link below), time perfectly the gas shortages in the US in the fall of 1973. Look closely at 1973 Libsolar (below) angular Saturn near Libsolar IC, partile 90 Pluto. Since the late 70’s, Jim has been teaching: Angular planets in partile (1 degree or less) aspect-- 0,90,180—TIME ‘outstanding incidents.’

https://imgur.com/a/Hy9jaH9

This Oil Embargo and acute gas shortages extended into March 1974. Take a look at DC’s 1974 Mundo Capsolar (link below). A Mercury-Pluto Paran. Sidereal Astrologers have often written in the past about Mercury-Pluto symbolism times having your ‘Back Up Against the Wall’ or being ‘backed’ into a corner, which is exactly what happen to US with this Oil Embargo! Or a Transportation (Mercury) Crises (Plutonian)!

https://imgur.com/a/DQ7QB61

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Arena » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:44 pm

If I remember correctly, either WW1 or WW2 or both started under Sat-Pluto.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:09 pm

I have not done any SMA work on WW1 but I could have forgotten if Jim has written about it in his SMA book.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:29 pm

Britain's entry into World War II was around the time of a Saturn-Pluto square, and (more importantly) a Mars-Saturn-Pluto combination. This was important mostly for Moon aspects but, in at least one chart, for angularity.

The most common feature for these charts is in Moon-Mars aspects, but I'll give a wider overview. The Capsolar was dormant, but with Moon conjunct Mars 1°03'.

The Cansolar then became the effective Year chart. Neptune rises and Moon opposes Mars 0°06'. This, time, though, there are more planets involved:

6°43' Ari Saturn
6°58' Can Pluto
7°11' Can Moon
7°17' Cap Mars

This cluster unfurled in various way. The most important, I think, is that t Pluto transited Cansolar or CanQ Moon from July 16 to September 6, and t Saturn squared Cansolar Moon July 17 to September 20. (Uranus was also opposite Capsolar Moon July to October. Notice these are all ecliptical Moon aspects, i.e., affect the whole world evenly for a worldwide effect.) Anyway, this narrowed the most severe period to July 17 - September 6.

The extraordinary Caplunar was then the key chart you're probably remembering. Pluto is near MC square Saturn (their square is partile), while Moon and Mars are conjunct within 0°03'.

The Arilunar kept Moon-Mars going with a 0°41' square. This one added Mercury-Uranus on the angles.

The daily timing then went ballistic. On September 1, when Hitler invaded Poland, the focus was on Mars. London’s CapQ Mid-heaven at 28° Capricorn (the exaltation degree of Mars) exactly squares an opposition between transiting Uranus (28° Aries) and Capsolar Mars (28° Libra); but this angle had moved on, beyond the 2° orb, by September 3. At noon on September 3, CapQ MC was 29°57' Capricorn, with transiting Uranus 28°03' Aries square Mercury at 29°50' Cancer, matching a pattern in the Arilunar that came into force the same day. More importantly, this brought to the CapQ angle transiting Uranus’ 0°14' opposition to Capsolar Moon (28°17' Libra). It was a Uranus event.

Saturn-Pluto does show up for war, therefore (add Pearl Harbor and 9/11), but that almost misses the point: It shows up for unrecoverable, no-going-back loss. It has marked the complete loss of cities or nation historically - the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem that launched the great Jewish diasporas, the successful sieges that overthrew Constantinople, or lesser events like the fall (so-called) of Saigon at the end of the Vietnam War. But also other "all is lost events" like the earthquake that nearly eradicated Avezzano, the Krakatoa and Huayanaputina volcano eruptions, Hurricanes Andrew and Sandy, the start of the Armenian holocaust and other massacres, and more.

I stand by my standard interpretation: "Harsh, dramatic tragedies or hardship with a sometimes apocalyptic feel: catastrophic disasters with profound feelings of irrevocable loss or separation." One way this can emerge is war.
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:11 pm

Thanks Jim. Yes, I now remember doing a-lot of work with London's 1939 Cansolar and other SMA charts which led-up to outbreak of War. But, I can't remember if there was an outstanding SMA Solar Ingress for WW1. The one thing about London's 1939 Cansolar which moved me-- I think it was one of the most malefic aspected SMA charts I have ever seen provided given potent validity to the ASC/MC. This one SMA Chart was responsible for a very severe War which lasted years involving nations. As far as eyeing the midpoints involving the horizon and meridian with Mars-Saturn-Pluto partile cnj these points could explain the longevity of this WAR. Maybe, a lesson here--if we ever see any malefic SMA set-up again with the same planets partile cnj important angular points--could be an indication of prolonged malefic problems in the World.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:39 pm

Either you are going down a wrong path with the Asc/MC midpoint, or we have to throw out almost everything we know about Sidereal astrology. There is no way that it can be a high-importance point AND in one of the weakest part of the quadrants - it dismantles the entire angularity model.

As I wrote here recently with a longer explanation, on a mathematical basis I now seriously doubt that any midpoint between two angles has any validity at all. (It was a long explanation so I won't recreate it.)

Yes, WW I had an important solar ingress, but of a very different type. It was all Uranus. (Uranus typically is the key planet opening and ending wars - "change of circumstance" sort of thing. Notice how, despite all the horror setup for WW II, it was Uranus that delivered in the end.) Here is the breakdown of the charts for England's entry into WW I:

Year (Capsolar): (Dormant.)
Bridge (+2): Uranus (Can).
Year (Cansolar, +2): Uranus (Moon). Moon-Uranus.
Month (+1): Mercury (Uranus Neptune). Moon-Sun Moon-Neptune Mercury-Neptune Uranus/Neptune.
-- Week (+3): Venus (Mercury Mars Neptune Pluto). Moon-Jupiter Mercury-Mars.
Day (CapQ, +1): Uranus.
-- Day (Cansolar transits, +1): Uranus. Moon-Sun.

For comparison, here are the charts for the U.S. entry into WW I:

Year (+2): Uranus. Moon-Venus-Pluto.
Bridge (+1): Pluto (Cap). Neptune (Can).
Month (+1): Jupiter (Moon Saturn). Moon-Saturn.
-- Week (+3): Venus Mars Pluto. Moon-Saturn Venus-Mars-Pluto.
Day (CapQ, +2): Uranus x2. Moon-Pluto.
-- Day (Cansolar, +2): Sun Saturn Sun-Saturn (CanQ). Neptune (transit).
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:59 pm

I hear you Jim and you know I respect your work greatly, but that 1939 London Cansolar resonates with me strongly as THE WW11 chart, and I believe the authors who say several European astrologers recognized the ASC/MC point as a very important chart point. Also, my own ASC/MC midpoint with Neptune resonates as the 2nd most important midpoint in my chart (life). And, Midpoint research originated in Europe (Germany), which counts for a-lot with my senses. No way that ASC/MC= Moon-Pluto forming a partile T-SQUARE with Mars & Saturn in the 1939 London Cansolar is a mundane coincidence with in light what other important astrologers who have said the ASC/MC point is an important chart point. Also, Robert Hand also recognized it as a very important chart point, and he has proved to me with dozens of examples pertaining to Midpoints he knows his research proves-out the validity of his midpoint work. I realize Sidereal Astrologers did not look upon the ASC/MC important, but as you have pointed out to me not everything the Sidereal Astrologers thought had merit has proved- out to have merit. We will just have to agree to disagree. But, if you feel what I have posted about the MC/ASC midpoint does not belong on this forum, please delete my posts, and I will understand.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:20 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:59 pm
...I believe the authors who say several European astrologers recognized the ASC/MC point as a very important chart point.
Oh, I also believe that they believe that. I just think they can't be right if some of our most fundamental things are also right.

That's my main point. On other (I'd have to call them more speculative) matters - where we have too little evidence to say anything for sure - I've come to completely question the validity of any midpoints of two angles, and I seriously doubt that any ecliptical midpoints involving angles are valid. (This last is complicated, and may fail for the following reason: The squares to Asc and MC are also valid ecliptically because they represent celestial longitudes of other angles. So, it could actually turn out that the Ascendant and Midheaven's midpoints don't exist ecliptically, but those of their squares do {!!!}. That would amount to much the same thing and would be a little bit of a mess :) ).
Also, my own ASC/MC midpoint with Neptune resonates as the 2nd most important midpoint in my chart (life).
I know you take that very seriously, but I'd discount it from the gate as being past 1°. If there is any extent where midpoint contacts are at all valid past 1°, the effect wouldn't be a strong one. I'd be much more inclined to take a Neptune factor in your life from your strong Moon-Neptune sextile.

I could make a similar claim that my Mercury is minutes from A/M ecliptically. In my case, the problem is (1) it doesn't add anything, since the Virgo Sun will add a fundamental Mercury quality anyway, and (2) it takes away one of my most defining character traits that is typical of a background Mercury, i.e., the persistent certainty that nobody ultimately listens to me on anything and my lifetime of words will amount to nothing.
No way that ASC/MC= Moon-Pluto forming a partile T-SQUARE with Mars & Saturn in the 1939 London Cansolar is a mundane coincidence
Of course not. It's pivotal to the event. But Moon aspects are going to be important regardless of where in the chart they fall - they're as strong as angle contacts. In this case, it's even better that it's not angular because the event was not just an event for England but, rather, for the whole world - something that ecliptical Moon aspects (what I call Universal Aspects) provide because they're in everyone's ingress everywhere. It was then triggered by important Saturn-Pluto transits for the actual event; and England did get it foreground in one of the lunar ingresses. But the Cansolar doesn't need it, and would seem wrong to imply that it was just an event for England.
Also, Robert Hand also recognized it as a very important chart point, and he has proved to me with dozens of examples pertaining to Midpoints he knows his research proves-out the validity of his midpoint work.
That specific midpoint? Or direct midpoints in general.
I realize Sidereal Astrologers did not look upon the ASC/MC important
Not just unimportant - antithetical to this. Fagan insisted scores of times that the mid-quadrant is the weakest part of the quadrant where effects are nearly null and void. (I think the 'weakest' is a bit off from there, but I'm quoting Fagan.) Bradley's weather research shows that, at least for ingresses, the mid-quadrant taken mundanely is the drop-off point, Are we to hurly this out the window and adopt a model that cites eight "hot" regions - four angles and four mid-quadrants - as the strong spots?

I mean, if that's where the evidence led, we'd need to do it. My point is that the strongest and most persistent evidence doesn't lead there but, rather, says those are points of weakness or inexpression.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
We can do that :)
But, if you feel what I have posted about the MC/ASC midpoint does not belong on this forum, please delete my posts, and I will understand.
Nope, I don't remove responsible, informated astrologers' views just because I disagree with them - thought I'm certainly willing to openly disagree with them :D
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:54 pm

Jim wrote:
Oh, I also believe that they believe that. I just think they can't be right if some of our most fundamental things are also right.
I understand exactly where you are coming from, and I certainly have no defense with your above statement. Since I have not studied the historical examples of midpoints from the German Schools or European Schools, I am only guessing with my experience with Hand’s work with Midpoints, the ASC/MC has some validity. But I know this for sure with all your work with SMA, we don’t have any solid examples of the ASC/MC. I don’t know how long the German Schools with Midpoints were working with the 90 degree dial which, I guess, would show more examples of the ASC/MC validity vs an old the early Siderealist’s who were not working with the 90 degree dial. In other words were Siderealists actually looking at the ASC/MC. I know this: If it was not for modern astro programs with midpoint trees—no way I would have ever looked at the ASC/MC. And then we have the problem: there is no way we can know the details of a native’s life to even do a statistical analysis or sampling with the ASC/MC. I can’t find my old cassette tapes with Hand’s many examples of famous people with his midpoint analysis—even if I found them I have my doubts the actual tape would be in condition to play. Now that I think about it—I don’t even know if I got a cassette player. One SMA Solar Ingress even if it was the greatest War in history doesn’t prove the mundane validity of a ASC/MC, we don’t have any kind of statistics to analyze.
Jim wrote:
On other (I'd have to call them more speculative) matters - where we have too little evidence to say anything for sure -

For sure, as I was stating above. My frigging problem, I was born a natural speculator. :)
Jim wrote:
So, it could actually turn out that the Ascendant and Midheaven's midpoints don't exist ecliptically, but those of their squares do {!!!}.
Do you mean its possible Mars & Saturn in London’s 1939 Cansolar ecliptical squares to the actual ASC/MC are valid, or only when the ASC & MC are 90 degrees apart?
Jim wrote:
I know you take that very seriously, but I'd discount it from the gate as being past 1°. If there is any extent where midpoint contacts are at all valid past 1°, the effect wouldn't be a strong one. I'd be much more inclined to take a Neptune factor in your life from your strong Moon-Neptune sextile.
Yes, I do understand where you are coming from since you didn't walk in my life shoes. Before I had ever read partile aspects reign supreme, Hand taught me the European Midpoint schools allowed 1,30.
One would have had to walk in my life shoes to truly understand how my career life has been completely dominated by Neptune and the business of Movies. I started out as a baby being inducted into this Neptunian World. I know of no other babies who were put into this dominating World of Movies/Neptune and how the business operates, got to be an angle involved Jim, I can’t buy the Moon sextile Neptune explains this dominating Movie/Neptune/World. Believe me, I have met hundreds of people in the commercial movie business of exhibition and distribution, and none of en was born into the Neptunium World of the commercial movie business.
Jim wrote:
But Moon aspects are going to be important regardless of where in the chart they fall - they're as strong as angle contacts.
OK, yes, you have the best Sidereal argument it was just a coincidence London’s 1939 Cansolar Moon fell on the ASC/MC midpoint, but based on my personal life beginning as a baby and work on ASC/MC by European Schools on Midpoints, I will never take it as a coincidence my Neptune falls on my ASC/MC. There are some things in the entire field of Astrological techniques, only the individual astrologer places his faith, regardless if it is misplaced faith. :)

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:02 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:54 pm
I don’t know how long the German Schools with Midpoints were working with the 90 degree dial which, I guess, would show more examples of the ASC/MC validity vs an old the early Siderealist’s who were not working with the 90 degree dial.
That would go back to Alfred Witte's early work. You can probably Wikipedia him to get a time range. Matthew and I were using 90° dials and related tools (especially the 45° ephemeris) from the mid-'70s. I had some training from Eleanor Kimmel about that time, too.
In other words were Siderealists actually looking at the ASC/MC.
Not directly - but Fagan was regularly observing and commenting on mid-quadrant phenomena, and Bradley posted multiple studies with graphs showing that exact part of the quadrants being exceptionally weak for measurable phenomena.
Jim wrote:
So, it could actually turn out that the Ascendant and Midheaven's midpoints don't exist ecliptically, but those of their squares do {!!!}.
Do you mean its possible Mars & Saturn in London’s 1939 Cansolar ecliptical squares to the actual ASC/MC are valid, or only when the ASC & MC are 90 degrees apart?
No. It's more bizarre than that. I'm saying the following:

London's Cansolar before WW II began had Ascendant 23°46' Leo, MC 19°58' Taurus. We know that ecliptical contact to these points within the Cansolar itself is not valid (it needs to be mundane). HOWEVER, the longitude of the Zenith (square Ascendant) is 23°46' Taurus, and the ecliptical expression of the Eastpoint (square Midheaven) is 19°58' Leo. Their midpoint... happens to be exactly where the Asc/MC midpoint is, 6°52' Cancer, and we know that these squares are valid ecliptically. (It's a conjecture. A stretch.)
...Hand taught me the European Midpoint schools allowed 1,30.
It depends on who you ask at what point in time. For the majority of their work (based on reading over a dozen of his books), Ebertin stuck with a degree.
...based on my personal life beginning as a baby and work on ASC/MC by European Schools on Midpoints, I will never take it as a coincidence my Neptune falls on my ASC/MC.
You do know (yes?) that your Neptune is 0°13' from the Southpoint - the southern square to Vertex - the 10th house (MC-like) expression of the Vertex family?
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:52 am

Jim wrote:
London's Cansolar before WW II began had Ascendant 23°46' Leo, MC 19°58' Taurus. We know that ecliptical contact to these points within the Cansolar itself is not valid (it needs to be mundane). HOWEVER, the longitude of the Zenith (square Ascendant) is 23°46' Taurus, and the ecliptical expression of the Eastpoint (square Midheaven) is 19°58' Leo. Their midpoint... happens to be exactly where the Asc/MC midpoint is, 6°52' Cancer, and we know that these squares are valid ecliptically. (It's a conjecture. A stretch.)
:) Jim, without a doubt, you are the only astrologer on the planet who would see this ‘stretch’ from a Sidereal Astrology standpoint! Another damn coincidence, but this time offering some Sidereal Astrology validity with astronomical points; which, was probably the only time in London’s history a Sidereal Solar Ingress presented this particular ‘exact’ astronomical situation, with the malefics ganged-up in partile formation with a T-Square with Cansolar Moon. We know how important the Moon is with Return & Ingress in Sidereal Astrology, it’s a mainstay for Sidereal Astrology. And since we know without a doubt partile 0,90,180 aspects to the Moon in Sidereal Ingress charts are super important, it sure simplifies the 1939 Cansolar for London as the main timing Sidereal Chart for the beginning of WW11, because of the partile Moon aspects--not the MC/ASC. So, coincidentally, even though 1939 Cansolar Moon fell on the weakest point of the 1939 Cansolar wheel, we have to treat this point as acting like an potent angle worldwide, according to your SMA teachings. I appreciate your understanding why I erroneously put too much emphasis on the ASC/MC for the 1939 Cansolar, because of my prior astrological learning from the European Schools on Midpoints before my astrological/astronomical learning with Sidereal Astrology.

Jim wrote/asked:
You do know (yes?) that your Neptune is 0°13' from the Southpoint - the southern square to Vertex - the 10th house (MC-like) expression of the Vertex family?
Absolutely not! This is the first time this astronomical realization has entered my mind. I am beating myself up with these ASC/MC coincidences = valid Sidereal Astrology astronomical points :) . Thanks Jim for pointing this out to me with a Sidereal point of view. I am sure you may now better understand with my Neptune falling on a Vertex related astronomical point, why I personally thought the ASC/MC was very important related to me being born into a Theater/Movie World. I do know this now: I need to train my eyes/brain to start paying more attention to the square points to the Vertex axis, which are easily overlooked.

After all of this discussion yesterday with London’s 1939 Cansolar partile aspected Moon being the Key-not Asc/MC, I awoke this morning with 2021 Cansolar partile aspected Moon with Sun & Pluto (T-Square) applying to the World Stage, but we have plenty of time to discuss this matter later.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:56 am

SteveS wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:52 am
Jim wrote:You do know (yes?) that your Neptune is 0°13' from the Southpoint - the southern square to Vertex - the 10th house (MC-like) expression of the Vertex family?
Absolutely not! This is the first time this astronomical realization has entered my mind. I am beating myself up with these ASC/MC coincidences = valid Sidereal Astrology astronomical points :) . Thanks Jim for pointing this out to me with a Sidereal point of view. I am sure you may now better understand with my Neptune falling on a Vertex related astronomical point, why I personally thought the ASC/MC was very important related to me being born into a Theater/Movie World. I do know this now: I need to train my eyes/brain to start paying more attention to the square points to the Vertex axis, which are easily overlooked.
As I thought about this on the way to work this morning, Steve, it started becoming apparent just how much Neptune on SP is such a perfect fit for you. It hits all the bullet points:
  • It isn't a foreground Neptune. (The Vertex-set doesn't grant foreground-ness.) This fits because you aren't a Neptunian personality per se; in fact, as a Virgo, you're the opposite for the most part (allowance being made for your distinctly Moon-Neptune and Mercury-Neptune traits; but this is quite distinct from a foreground Neptune).
  • It has always had a sense of being "fated." You speak of the Neptune emergence into your life in near-miraculous terms with a strong sense of destiny, a perception of some force outside yourself guiding this. (I think it's your subconscious mind, but what matters with Vertex contacts is the perception of fatedness, almost obliviousness until what seems like something outside yourself intervening.)
  • It has a 10th house style expression, being the southern ("upper") member of the Vertex Family. Therefore, the context of its manifestations would be expected to be in areas of your life such as career.
  • It might (emphasis on maybe) have an implicit aspect with your rising Jupiter - a variation of co-angularity from Jupiter being 1°24' before Asc in altitude and Neptune 0°13' before SP. These are measured in different mathematical frameworks, and I don't think there's a literal geometric aspect, but the co-angularity itself is a kind of aspect. This would make the connection to film, speculative investment industry, etc. even more precise.
It's really kind of spectacular. You may have renewed my interest in the Vertex family for personal charts. (It's clear that it has no value in mundane charts, but, then, neither do trines and sextiles :).)
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:51 pm

Jim wrote:
It has always had a sense of being "fated." You speak of the Neptune emergence into your life in near-miraculous terms with a strong sense of destiny, a perception of some force outside yourself guiding this. (I think it's your subconscious mind, but what matters with Vertex contacts is the perception of fatedness, almost obliviousness until what seems like something outside yourself intervening.)
Exactly Jim!
Jim wrote:
It has a 10th house style expression, being the southern ("upper") member of the Vertex Family. Therefore, the context of its manifestations would be expected to be in areas of your life such as career.
Big time!
Jim wrote:
It might (emphasis on maybe) have an implicit aspect with your rising Jupiter - a variation of co-angularity from Jupiter being 1°24' before Asc in altitude and Neptune 0°13' before SP. These are measured in different mathematical frameworks, and I don't think there's a literal geometric aspect, but the co-angularity itself is a kind of aspect. This would make the connection to film, speculative investment industry, etc. even more precise.
Exactly Jim! This co-angularity interest me in a spectacular way, and it is definitely something new from a Sidereal Astrology standpoint I have never considered. It makes so much sense to me now looking at the Jupiter-Neptune co-angularity explaining explicitly why my life was thrust into the field of market speculation without me really wanting to go into this field because it took me away from my real passion—the Theater business. Ebertin about Jupiter-Neptune:
Principle: …speculation
Probable manifestation: + …the tendency to speculate, gain without effort.

Never would have seen this without your keen knowledge with the astronomy pertaining to Sidereal Astrology along with our discussion in this thread Jim. Very, very interesting-- providing more solid answers about ‘knowing’ who/WHY I am.
Jim wrote:
It's really kind of spectacular. You may have renewed my interest in the Vertex family for personal charts.
And you, my Sidereal Astrology friend-- are the exact person to Virgo-tize this for us with clear Sidereal Astrology details. :)

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Arena » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:53 pm

Thank you Univverse for finally lighting the bulb inside their heads about the importance of the Vx, I tried waking them up a few times, I believe I even pointed at Steve's Neptune a couple of times as well as my own Uranus, which is nothing like Saturn's angularity as some people kept pushing for all the time without knowing me at all...but they didn't have their minds open to be able to listen. Now they finally do. : :idea: :!: :idea: :shock: :D

May this lightning lead to some more opening of minds and new discoveries.

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:27 am

Arena wrote:
I believe I even pointed at Steve's Neptune a couple of times
I believe not---but my 70 year old mind may easily be mistaken. :)

And Jim was writing about the Vertex as being a sensitive chart point since the late 70,s. Jim's writes from his book 'Interpreting Solar Returns:
The Vertex is an important "sensitive point." Planets conjunct, opposite,or square the Vertex are highly accented, but any actual manifestations seem to be unconsciously motivated.
Jim has long recognized Planets square the Vertex are either on the South Point (SP) or North Point (NP) of a chart, and Jim is making a clear distinction here with my Natal Chart, Neptune is partile cnj my Natal South Point, probably something he thought I may be overlooking, and his hunch was dead-on, I have completely over-looked my Natal South Point with Neptune partile cnj my Natal SP.

Arena, you seem to be saying Jim does not think the Vertex is not an important chart point, correct me if I am wrong, but as you can plainly see with Jim's quoted words he recognizes the Vertex as a sensitive point in native's chart. Maybe Jim did not place as much emphasis on the Vertex as you do, and that was the past discussion which prompted your post here. I think, but may be wrong, Jim is maybe seeing in this discussion the SP-NP may be more important in a chart than we all think it is, and Jim maybe wanting to re-think the importance of planets partile cnj the SP&NP as being a easily over-looked aspect as "unconsciously" motivating important things in our lives, depending on the the Planet cnj the SP & NP, which are squares to the Vertex/Anti-Vertex axis.

Arena wrote:
Now they finally do.
You are including me in "they" but you need to clearly understand I completely overlooked my SP in my chart, which Jim was pointing out to me as an important point that I may be missing which would better help me understand all the subconscious/unconscious Neptune things happening in my life. The wording of your posts seems to be aimed at something you recognized about the Vertex which was not recognized by Jim. Don't get me wrong Arena, I don't entirely agree with all of Jim's posts on this forum, we are all entitled to our own astrological beliefs/opinions. What am I missing here about "Now they finally do?" You seem to be lashing-out at the "they" which I feel unjustly includes me.

And Jim recognized my Neptune on the South Point of my Natal as the main astrological cause and effect for a-lot of my important 'unconsciously motivated' Neptune happenings in my life. Arena, I apologize if I am wrong, but I don't remember you ever posting about the South Point pertaining to my Neptune partile cnj the South Point. If I am mistaken, please show me these posts. I do remember you posting a-lot about your Uranus cnj your Vertex, feeling/knowing it was a very important aspect in your life. But, I don't remember Jim saying this was not a sensitive aspect in your chart, after Jim wrote what he did in his above quoted words.

The main reason I completely over-looked my SP with Neptune partile cnj my SP in my Natal-- is my SF Wheel does not show the SP or NP, which leads me to a question for Jim: Is there a way to get Solar Fire to show square aspects with the Vertex/Anti-Vertex in a chart?

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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:43 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:27 am
The main reason I completely over-looked my SP with Neptune partile cnj my SP in my Natal-- is my SF Wheel does not show the SP or NP, which leads me to a question for Jim: Is there a way to get Solar Fire to show square aspects with the Vertex/Anti-Vertex in a chart?
Several ways, depending on how you want to work.

One way - probably the easiest, besides just looking at the face of the chart - is to keep flipping between the horoscope wheel and a 90° dial. That's what I do anyway, to make sure I don'g miss squares to MC and Asc, or to get the fastest grok of what's angular. If you are displaying Vx in the chart, then you'll see its conjunctions, oppositions, and squares immediately.

BTW, I'm increasingly convinced that the ecliptical contacts are only important for the squares (NP & SP), for the same mathematical reasons that squares to Asc (for example) are valid ecliptically as Z & N. (Too long to repeat here, but well kown and well proven mathematically.) Another mathematical quirk (just the nature of the spherical math) is that if a planet is square Vx ecliptically it will also square it in the mundoscope. (That's not a new contact, it's the same one shown through two different windows.) Thus, echoing your ecliptical Neptune-Vx square, your mundoscope has Vertex 14°03' in the 8th house and Neptune 13°49' in the 11th house, 0°14' from square.

The other way that comes to mind is to turn on aspect lines to the Vertex. Click Chart Options | Aspected Points. Open your standard Aspected Points file with the Edit button. Add Vertex. It will now show all aspects to Vertex (which I consider an inconvenience, but you might find convenient).
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Re: 2018 Cansolar

Post by SteveS » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:08 pm

Jim wrote:
The other way that comes to mind is to turn on aspect lines to the Vertex. Click Chart Options | Aspected Points. Open your standard Aspected Points file with the Edit button. Add Vertex. It will now show all aspects to Vertex (which I consider an inconvenience, but you might find convenient).
Got it Jim, I should have been able to figure this function out myself, but I have never paid that much attention to SP-NP. I will never again miss partile or tight squares to the Vertex again with native's charts. Thanks.

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