PSSI of the Arisolar

Q&A and discussion on Sidereal Solar & Lunar Ingresses, and transits & quotidian progressions of solar ingress.
User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:58 pm

I've been calling it the CapP (to go with CapQ) and would just add the M or A to the end of that. CapPA. I like that.

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:45 pm

Jim asked:
Did you calculate the Apparent for comparison? Here they are, that is if ‘True’ is same as Apparent.
Dec 7th 1941:
True Pussy Arisolar DSC 27,56 Ari
True Pussy Cansolar Zenith 19,49 Pi
:)
JSAD wrote:
I've been calling it the CapP (to go with CapQ) and would just add the M or A to the end of that. CapPA. I like that.
Exactly! I was thinking the same, much simpler.

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:18 pm

I like JSAD 'P' abbreviation.

Aug 9th 1945 Tokyo H-Bomb for Hiroshima:
ARIP (Mean)
IC 1,52 Tau
Mo 1,15 Tau
DSC 13,15 Can
Pl 13,56 Can

ARIP (Apparent)
IC 3,26 Tau
DSC 15,15 Can

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:32 am

Steve, instead of ARIPA, all caps, I think it's easier to read if we use AriPa or Ari-Pa. It's CapQ, (mixed case) so AriP would follow that logic. What do you think? Harder to type of course, but not by much.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7050
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:40 am

There are some striking individual charts here. I wonder, though, if we might get back to comprehensively doing the fires (which I assume you were doing as Mean? - they should all be finished by Mean, and then contrasted to the same fires for Apparent).

Dozens of single-case examples aren't worth one clearly defined, contained study. :) (Except that they pique our interest and keep the curiosity flowing.)

If it turns out that (1) there is value and (2) this works best at mean rate, we have a whole new ballgame! (One has to be careful not to force the results to come out that way because of wanting a whole new ballgame.) If it's mean rate, we can get nearly-exact results in seconds form Solar Fire (and tweak to precision the ones that matter to us most), and it would warrant retracing Fagan and Bradley published examples through the decades in American Astrology see if even their hand-picked examples work better under the other model.

But first we need to establish whether the PSSI/PSSR is valid at all, and, if so, whether it operates by the mean or apparent solar rate. For this, I think our best resource is the single largest collection of mundane examples - the fires - which form a pre-defined, contained set, and where the quotidian results are well-known. I give below the distribution of planets on quotidian angles and transiting Capsolar or Cansolar angles for the fires.
Fires Q.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:06 am

Jim wrote and requested:
I wonder, though, if we might get back to comprehensively doing the fires (which I assume you were doing as Mean? - they should all be finished by Mean, and then contrasted to the same fires for Apparent).
Sure Jim, I will get back to the fire list of AriPm, but first, before reading your above post I took a look at the CapQ’s list you provided with “SMA catalogue of events with dormant CapQ (nothing to show, good / bad / indifferent)” , only starting with one with the least scores (hits) for daily timing: It is a solid hit for the CapPa & m with t. Mars & CapP Saturn (take your pick?)

San Ysidro McDonald’s Mass Murder:
July 18, 1984 3:59 PM MST San Ysidro, California:
CapPa:
IC 21,11 Libra
SA 20,33 Libra
t. Mars 22,22 Libra
ASC 26,09 Can
t. Me 25,43 Can

CapPm:
IC 22,04 Lib
ASC 26,54 Can

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7050
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:28 am

SteveS wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:06 am
Sure Jim, I will get back to the fire list of AriPm, but first, before reading your above post I took a look at the CapQ’s list you provided with “SMA catalogue of events with dormant CapQ (nothing to show, good / bad / indifferent)”
Ah, yes, that's what you were doing - so much is happening so fast this week that I'd forgotten about that. Good choice.
starting with one with the least scores (hits) for daily timing: It is a solid hit for the CapPa & m with t. Mars & CapP Saturn (take your pick?)
I'll restructure this a bit to make the comparison more visible for the Cap PSSI.

San Ysidro McDonald’s Mass Murder
20°33' Lib Saturn
21°11' Lib IC (apparent)
22°04' Lib IC (mean)
22°22' LIB t. Mars
26°09' Can Asc (apparent)
25°43' Can t Mercury
26°54' Can Asc (mean)

You're right, they both look good. The most acute angularities are the Mars and Saturn, though there's nothing wrong with that Mercury. Which one is better is a close call: calculating carefully, rounding Mars/Saturn to 21°28':

Ma/Sa-Apparent 0°17'
Mars-Mean 0°18'
Ma-Sa-Mean 0°36'
Saturn-Apparent 0°48'
Mars-Apparent 1°11'
Saturn-Mean 1°31'

Mean vs. Apparent alternates all the way through. Taking the planets alone (as the more important), average orb for Mean is 0°55' and for Apparent 1°00' so there isn't much to distinguish them. (Mean is minutely better.)

Thanks! That's kinda awesome.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Sat Aug 11, 2018 10:32 am

Jim wrote:
I'll restructure this a bit to make the comparison more visible for the Cap PSSI.
Indeed Jim, much better and more visible.
Jim wrote:
That's kinda awesome.
Yes sir!

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7050
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:27 pm

I've just revisited three threads covering PSSI Capsolars or Arisolars that Bradley discussed in print. He, of course, was using apparent rate and got fabulous examples. I recalculated (estimated) with mean rate and every example held up at least equally well. You should see these threads in the Notifications or New Posts lists.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:13 am

Jim, can you explain to us details about the differences and how the apparent & mean rates are calculated.

User avatar
Jim Eshelman
Nabu
Posts: 7050
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 12:40 pm
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:17 am

Yes. Here are the main points to know:

1. Both points average the same speed.
2. Both points start the year at the same spot and end the year at the same spot.
3. Differences, therefore, fall in between the start and stop of the year.
4. The mean rate moves at a smooth, even rate. The apparent rate moves at an irregular, variable rate.

The two different approaches (abbreviated "Mean" and "Apparent") respectively use the rate of the Right Ascension of the Mean Sun (RAMS) and the Right Ascension of the Apparent Sun (RAAS). This was easier to explain in the days when everyone was working out of an ephemeris, but is easy enough to explain now.

RAMS moves at the same rate as the Sidereal Time column of an ephemeris. In fact, in a noon ephemeris, it is identical with the ST column (and in a midnight ephemeris is 12 hours different). It reflects the mean (average) motion of the Sun, as if the Sun moved at exactly the same rate every day.

But the Sun does NOT move at the same rate every day. When it is around 0° Capricorn it moves about 61'/day, and when at 0° Cancer it moves 57'/day. It speeds up and slows down throughout the year as the Earth passes through different parts of its elliptical (not circular) orbit.

The Mean Sun approach uses the steady, even average Sun rate. Another way to say this is that the SSR or ingress precession follows an even flow of time. The Apparent Sun rate does not show time flowing evenly. It speeds up and slows down, and the rate at which it does this is the Sun's actual apparent motion.

The difference between MS and AS is called the equation of time. This Wikipedia article has a couple of nice graphs showing how this difference fluctuates during the year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time

It's the difference between standardized time zone time and sundial time. In fact, before time zones, mechanical clocks moved people from sundial time (apparent rate) to Local Mean Time (mean rate).

Fagan always felt that the PSSR needed to flow at the apparent solar rate, and Bradley followed that definition. This puts it at odds with the SNQ and SQ, except that, at the end of his life, Fagan started thinking the SNQ and SQ also should use the apparent rate. He put the word Neo- in front of them to indicate this. Thus, the SQ is progression of the SSR by the mean solar rate, and the Neo-SQ is the progression of the SSR at the apparent rate. I long ago confirmed Bradley's determination that the SNQ and SQ work by the mean rate, but Siderealists always continued calculating the PSSR by the apparent rate as first defined. My push now is to finally test and confirm (1) how well the PSSR works at all and (2) whether it has a mean or apparent solar argument.

Over half the complexities that have kept people from using the PSSR come from this Apparent Sun issue. That's why the Stahl and Omega ephemerides had the ASSI column, an average increase for calculating the PSSR that just needed a little correction but mostly would give you the PSSR by subtracting two numbers and adding a third - a very fast process.
Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

SteveS
Synetic Member
Synetic Member
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:11 am
Gender:

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by SteveS » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:33 am

Until you can convince me otherwise, I will look at both rates as possibly valid. Maybe a mean of a mean between both rates, but I am just guessing.

User avatar
Jupiter Sets at Dawn
Irish
Irish
Posts: 2331
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: PSSI of the Arisolar

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:39 pm

To put it in a different way, the mean rate is a mathematically derived rate used for the convenience of the person drawing up the ephemeris by hand. The apparent rate is the rate at which the Earth actually moves around the Sun.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest