Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Q&A and discussion on Tertiary Progressions
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Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:27 pm

Arising from Steve's new thread today, the question has been opened as to whether "a day for a month" definition of Tertiary Progressions should be one civil day per sidereal month, or one "sidereal" day (one rotation of Earth) equals one sidereal month. Because the easiest way to flip through these in Solar Fire is to flip the Q2 vs Q1 flag (which evidently changes the definition of length of day), for the sake of this thread I will call the classic method (1civil day) T2 and the rotational day alternative T1.

I'll run a few side-by-side comparisons from my test set. For the present first pass, I will use only birthplace for all events. In a more complete analysis, I would add locality as well (but not in this pass).
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:35 pm

John Lennon for his death by murder.

T2:
p Neptune sqq r Saturn 01'
p Pluto op. r Moon 02'
p Saturn conj r Uranus 11'
p Sun conj r EP 49'
p Moon sq p Mars 52'
p Moon sq p Jupiter 59
-- midpoint 04'
-----------------------------
t Mars sqq p Uranus 06'
t Sun op p Jupiter 58'

T3:
p Moon sq p Saturn 00'
p Neptune sqq r Saturn 01'
p Pluto op r Moon 02'
p Neptune conj p EP 11' [also Asc & MC]
p Saturn conj r Uranus 20'
p Mercury sqq p Pluto 39'
p Sun sq r MC 41'
p Moon sq r Uranus 20'
------------------------------
t Saturn conj p Sun 01'
t Mars sqq p Uranus 02'
t Saturn sqq r Venus 13'


WINNER: T1 easily
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:57 pm

Aleister Crowley for receiving The Book of the Law (completion).

T2:
p Mars sqq p Pluto 01' [r Pluto 42']
p Mercury sqq p Saturn 04' [The Book of the Law]
p Mars ssq p Uranus 17'
p Jupiter ssq r Sun 21'
p Venus ssq r Jupiter 31'

p Sun op p Neptune 57'
--------------------------------
t Jupiter sqq p Uranus 05'
t Sun sqq p Jupiter 10'

t Mercury op p Sun 11'
t Jupiter op p Mars 22'
t Jupiter ssq p Pluto 23' [midpoint]
t Mercury conj p Neptune 45'

T1:
p Mars sqq r Pluto 02'
p Sun op p Neptune 07'
p Jupiter ssq r Sun 08'
p Mars sqq p Pluto 40'

p Moon conj r Saturn 50'
p Mercury sqq p Saturn 57'
p Mars ssq p Uranus 55'

================================
t Jupiter ssq p Uranus 07'
t Pluto sqq p Sun 13'
t Sun sqq p Jupiter 23
p Mercry conj p Neptune 44'
p Mercury sqq p Venus 48'
t Mercury op p Sun 51'

WINNER: T2 (but it's close)
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:15 pm

James Forrestal for his suicide.

T2:
p Uranus ssq r Moon 14'
p Venus tr p Venus 16'
p Mars sqq p Neptune 21'
p Moon tr p Neptune 28'

p Sun conj t Venus 29'
p Saturn sq r Asc 50'
----------------
p Venus conj p Pluto 23'
t Mars op p Uranus 44'
t Mercury sq p Mercury
t Jupiter ssq p Mercury 52'
t Saturn sqq p Saturn 59'


T1:
p Uranus ssq r Moon 10'
p Mars sqq p Pluto 15'
p Sun sqq p Uranus 22'

p Sun op r Moon 33'
p Sun op r Saturn 35'
p Mars sq p Saturn 42'
p Moon sq p Neptune 46'
p Jupiter sq r Sun 53'
---------------------------
t Venus sqq p Mars 09'
t Venus conj p Pluto 24'
t Mars op p Uranus 41'
t Neptune sqq s Jupiter 49'
t Venus sqq p Saturn 51'

p Saturn sq r Asc 58'

WINNER: T1
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:25 am

Richard Nixon, resignation.

T2:
p Uranus ssq r Mercury 02'
p Mars sq p Saturn 03'
p Mars sex r Saturn 11'
p Jupiter sq r MC 13'
p Pluto op r Mercury 16'
p Mars tr p Neptune 19'
p Venus op r EP 27'
p Mercury ssq r Moon 44'
----------------------
t Sun ssq p Pluto 06'
t Sun op. p Uranus 08'
t Mars sq p Asc 16'
t Pluto op p Mercury 23'
p Mars sqq p Sun 27'
p Venus sq p Sun 32'
p Neptune conj p Asc 39'

T1:
p Uranus ssq r Mercury 02'
p Moon sqq p Neptune 03'

p MC sq r Neptune 05'
p Pluto op r Mercury 13'
p Mercury op s p Pluto 19'
p Mercury sq r Mercury 33'
p Mercury ssq p Uranus 35'
p Jupiter sq r MC 42'
p Sun sq r in 45'
===========================
t Moon conj p Sun 04'
t Sun ssq r Pluto 05'
t Sun op p Uranus 12'
t Sun sqq p Mercury 23'
t Neptune sqq p Sun 51'


WINNER: None... there isn't enough difference to tell.
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:55 am

John Kennedy for his assassination.

T2:
p MC sq p Jupiter 02'
p Sun sq r Mercury 08'
p Moon ssq p Neptune 12'
p Sun sqq p Pluto 40'

p EP conj p Pluto 48'
p Sun sqq p Jupiter 58'
--------------------------
t Mercury sq p Venus 01'
p Moon conj p Mercury 14'
t Uranus op p Venus 05'

T1:
p Mercury op p Neptune 02'
p MC sq p Pluto 09' [EP-Pluto 48']
p Mercury tr r Sun 16'
p Sun sq r Mars 18'
p Venus tr p Jupiter 26'
p Sun sqq r Pluto 28'

p Venus sq r Sun 52'
------------------------------
t Sun op p Moon 10'
t Uranus op p Mars 20'
t Mercury sq p Mars 24'

WINNER: T1
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:18 pm

Donald Bradley, apartment robbery.

T2:
p Pluto ssq r Venus 01'
p Venus op r Uranus 16'
p Mars ssq r Mars 20'
p Mars sq r Neptune 27'
p Sun ssq p Saturn 32'
p Venus ssq r Saturn 33'
p Mercury sqq r Venus 33'
p Venus tr r Sun 34'

p Mercury sq p Pluto 31'
p Asc sq p Jupiter 03'
--------------------------------
t Saturn sqq p Venus 05'
t Saturn sq p MC 41'
t Venus sq p Neptune 52'

T1:
p Pluto ssq r Venus 01'
p Venus sex p Saturn 09'
p Venus tr r Jupiter 13'
p Mars ssq r Mars 22'

p Mars sq r Neptune 25'
p Venus op r Asc 24'
------------------------------
t Venus sq. p Neptune 49'

WINNER: Easily T2
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:22 pm

As a pause... so far, we're tied. At this point, there really isn't an advantage of one over the other. I'll keep looking, but thought it worth this interim summary.

I'm going to switch tactics and look at some key events in my life instead.
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:24 pm

In starting to look at examples in my own chart, I'm going to tighten the focus on the aspects that usually perform best. To save time and energy, and minimize "noise," the following won't be exhaustive listings, but more "what seems significant one way or the other."

Wedding (T2 wins)
T2:
p Venus tr r Sun 13'
p EP conj p Venus 18'
p Moon sq p Asc 35'
--------------------
t Pluto conj p Moon 40'
t Moon op p Sun 26' [fast, but distinctive and well timed]

T1:
p Venu conj p EP 01'
p Venus tr r Sun 39'
---------------------------
t Moon op p Sun 15'
t Saturn sq p Moon 39'
t Pluto sq p Asc 42'

Left wife & Indiana, flew to California (T1 inches ahead)
T2:
p EP conj p Mercury 11'
-----------------------------
t Pluto sq p Venus 28'

T!:
p Moon sq p Asc 01'
p Mercury sq p MC 03'
------------------------------
t Moon sq p Asc 07'
t Pluto sq p Venus 27'

Public attack/victory, began with AK (T1 wins)
T2:
p Asc op r Mars 10'
p Venus tr p Saturn 17'
p Sun sq p Neptune 40'
p Moon conj p Uranus 28', r Jupiter 35', r Uranus 52'
-----------------------------
t Jupiter sq p Venus 60'

T!:
p Sun sq p Neptune 03'
p Moon sq r Sun 19'
p Asc op r Mars 23'
----------------------------
t Uranus sq p Mars 52'

Entered new direction, met my guru (T1 inches ahead)
p Sun conj p Venus 25'
p Asc sq r Venus 26'
p Asc conj r Pluto 29'
------------------------------
t Uranus op p MC 60'

T1:
p Sun conj p Venus 11'
p Jupiter sq p MC 43'
---------------------------
t Mars op p Mercury 10'


Succeeded at losing an election &c. (T2 wins)
T2:
p Mars conj p Neptune 08'
p Mercury sq p Jupiter 42'
---------------------------------
t Venus conj p Pluto 02'
t Jupiter sq p Asc 03'
t Sun sq p Venus 17'
t Pluto sq p Uranus 41'
p Saturn conj r Venus 52'

T1:
p Venus op r MC 14'
p Mars conj p Neptune 34'
--------------------------------
t Venus conj p Pluto 02'
t Jupiter sq p Asc 56'

Revelation, started entirely new life direction (T2 wins decisively)
p Moon tr r Sun 16'
p Mercury sex p Mars 21'
-------------------------------
t Sun conj p EP 0°00'

T1: The main thing is the follow structure which is grossly wrong yet unmistakably powerful:
4°05' Tau p Moon
4°12' Sco p Saturn
4°19' Leo p Pluto
4°27' Sco p Asc

Launch date of major new life-product (unclear/tie)
p Mars conj p Saturn 08'
p Mercury sq r Mercury 09'
p Sun conj r Mars 10'
p Jupiter sq p Saturn 14'
p Venus sq r Venus 20'
p Mars sq p Jupiter 22'
p Venus op r Pluto 33'
------------------------------
t Venus op p MC 17'

T1:
p Jupiter sq p Saturn 28'
p Mars conj p Saturn 50'
p Mercury sq r Mercury 54'

Spark-inauguration of new relationship (T1 wins)
p Sun op p Pluto 37'
p EP conj p Mercury 54'
p Moon op p MC 59'
-----------------------------
t Mars op p Moon 24'
t Mars conj p MC 35'
t Saturn op p Uranus 57'

T1:
p Sun op p Jupiter 06'
p Mars sq r Moon 12'
p Jupiter conj r Pluto 17'
p Sun op r Pluto 23' [p Pluto 47']
t Jupiter sq r Venus 30'
p Sun sq r Venus 36'
p EP conj p Mercury 39'
--------------------------------
t Mars conj p MC 47'
t Saturn op p Uranus 54'

Critical, decisive spiritual breakthrough event (T1 wins)
p Moon sq p Venus 12'
p MC sq p Pluto 15' [r Pluto 54']
p Moon sq p Neptue 20'
p Mercury sq r Venus 23'
p Venus op p Neptune 32'
p Mercury op r Pluto 46'
-------------------------------
t Saturn sq p MC 30'
p Saturn op p Pluto 45'

T1:
p MC conj r Venus 18'
p Venus sq p Uranus 23'
p MC sq r Pluto 31'
p Mercury op p Jupiter 37'

Unpleasant end of major relationship (T1 wins)
p EP op r Sun 27'
p Asc sq r Uranus 41'
p Asc sq r Jupiter 58'

T1:
t Neptune sq p Asc 47'

Teacher died, inherited lineage leadership (too close/tie)
T2:
p Saturn conj r Pluto 03'
p Saturn conj r Venus 10'
p Sun sq r Mercury 12'
p Mercury conj p Pluto 43' [r Pluto 47']
p Mercury sq p Saturn 50'
p Mercury sq r Venus 60'
-------------------------------
t Uranus op p Jupiter 46'

T1:
p Saturn sq r Pluto 04'
p Saturn conj r Vens 09'
p Asc conj p Uranus 15'
p Moon sq p Sun 23'
p Sun sq r Saturn 51'

Powerful start of major relationship (T1 wins)
p Mercury op p Mars 08'
p Saturn sq r Pluto 17'
p Saturn conj p Venus 30'
p Sun conj p Pluto 24'
--------------------------------
t Uranus op p Jupiter 58'

T1:
p Sun sq r Venus 04'
p Sun conj r Pluto 09'
p Sun sq p Saturn 23'
---------------------------
t Uranus op p Jupiter 34'
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Conclusions for now

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:31 pm

So... how did these come out? For my personal events, the scores were as follows:

(T2 wins decisively)
(T2 wins)
(T2 wins)
(unclear/tie)
(unclear/tie)
(T1 inches ahead)
(T1 inches ahead)
(T1 wins)
(T1 wins)
(T1 wins)
(T1 wins)
(T1 wins)

Seven times T1 wins (clearly or slimly), and three times T2 wins (one time overwhelmingly). On the basis for this, I'm quite willing to entertain the strong possibility that Clay's reinterpretation of Tertiary Progressions - using the rotational day instead of the civil day - is the better formula.

The cases where T2 was better were not cases where there was much wrong with T1 except one overwhelmingly decisive incident. These outliers are bothersome, which keeps my conclusion from being decisive.

The above could perhaps be sharpened (though it also could be made more obscure) if I went back and added the local angles. Since that's so tedious bouncing in and out of the triwheel to change progression modalities each time, I didn't do it on this pass, and it eventually should be done.

Asked to put a dollar on the table for a bet, my present bet would be that T1 (Clay's variant) is the correct formula, though I feel more persuasion is far from final.
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by SteveS » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:55 pm

I understand Jim. I really appreciate your rapid analysis with this issue.

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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:06 pm

SteveS wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:55 pm
I understand Jim. I really appreciate your rapid analysis with this issue.
We should watch both versions going forward, at least for a while.
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:45 pm

The civil day (=mean solar day) outperforms the sidereal day in quotadians which are solar-based, might the mean lunar day be more appropriate for tertiaries?
Time matters

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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:50 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:45 pm
The civil day (=mean solar day) outperforms the sidereal day in quotadians which are solar-based, might the mean lunar day be more appropriate for tertiaries?
That would be a different progression system, since the lunar day is 25 hours long. That means it would gain about an hour of progressed time for every month of life. Thus, in two years the progressed positions would be about a day different, and by age 30 they would be more than two weeks different.

I'm not saying it isn't a valid, independent progression system - I'm saying terts would never have caught on if progressed Sun were half a sign off before the dust had settled from one's first Saturn return.
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Re: Terts - Rotational Day or Civil Day?

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:16 pm

I'm not saying it isn't a valid, independent progression system - I'm saying terts would never have caught on if progressed Sun were half a sign off before the dust had settled from one's first Saturn return.
Point well taken. I'm still just leaning to understand progression and coherent theories are dear to me--but not if they contradict fact. My history has been doing predictions based on return charts and transits. (Ingress charts for mundane astrology.)
Time matters

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