Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Discussion & announcements concerning Mike's "Time Matters Sidereal Astrology" software, now in development. Keep up on what's happening, download a free copy for use, and give your input on this important project.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:37 pm

Expressing angularity from 0 to 100% divided neatly into three grounds: foreground 66 2/3% to 100%, middleground 33 1/3 % to 66 2/3%, background 0% to 33 1/3%.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:46 pm

Interesting approach on the division. (It makes straightforward sense.) I'm guessing 75% is at 10°? (Thinking I know how the curve behaves, but not having worked it out, I'd have first thought to use 75% and 25% as the thresholds, but not sure where those fall.)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:52 pm

The discrepancy between the longitude as as calculated by Solar Fire vs. Astro for the same time. Is the level of discrepancy similar similar in 1921, 2021, and 2121 or does the discrepancy change over time? I am very aware of the way delta T changes over time, but thanks for the explanation for others needing a better understanding.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:00 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:46 pm
Interesting approach on the division. (It makes straightforward sense.) I'm guessing 75% is at 10°? (Thinking I know how the curve behaves, but not having worked it out, I'd have first thought to use 75% and 25% as the thresholds, but not sure where those fall.)
You are correct it should be 0-25 background and 75-100 foreground, and that's what the code does. My thinking when I wrote the above got muddled. As it happened, my test chart had no planets in the 25-33% range of the 67-75% which the program calculates correctly as middleground. Proved by using a different test chart. Sorry for the brain fart :oops:

75% is 10 degrees PVL from a major angle, 25% is 10 degrees PVL from a cadent cusp in the cadent house, or 20 degrees PVL in the succendent house.
Last edited by mikestar13 on Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:02 pm

mikestar13 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:52 pm
The discrepancy between the longitude as as calculated by Solar Fire vs. Astro for the same time. Is the level of discrepancy similar similar in 1921, 2021, and 2121 or does the discrepancy change over time?
Let's try 1921, 2021, and 2121.


Caplunar Aug 15, 1921
SF calculates as Aug 15, 1921, 6:52:35 PM EST
SF: 0°00'01" Cap
Astro: 0°00'01" Cap
Diff: 00"

Caplunar Aug 19, 2021
SF calculates as Aug 19, 2021, 8:21:39 PM EDT
SF: 0°00'01" Cap
Astro: 29°59'54' Sag
Diff: -07"

Caplunar Aug 19, 2121
SF calculates as Aug 25, 2121, 1:13:04 PM EST
SF: 0°00'01" Cap
Astro: 29°58'25' Sag
Diff: -95"

Yeah, I think it's a Delta T issue.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:03 pm

Cerebral flatulence is healthy. :)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:10 pm

More Delta T stuff.

Here is a really fun table from NASA, including an arithmetic formula at the bottom for estimating future values: https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/deltat2004.html

Here's a good NASA discussion of the subject from which the above is linked:
https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEhelp/deltaT.html
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:22 pm

On the original discrepancy (for Oct. 10, 2021, 9:24:27 am), astro.com agrees with me to the second. We may have discovered a subtle bug in Solar Fire! (Probably a slightly mishandling the ut -> et conversion, which will only be meaningful for the moon). I trust Dieter Koch and Alois Trendel over the Solar Fire authors if they don't agree.

Update: same for sample Caplunars.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:18 pm

I will estimate release Tuesday night or Wednesday morning. Today was well spent, I confirmed the accuracy of my calculations and made a significant format improvement. Thanks in both cases for your help, Jim.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:52 am

My own Moon - from exacting manual calculation in the distant past plus Astro Computing Services in he '80s - is 27°24'00" Aquarius.

Solar Fire gives 27°23'59" Aquarius. Astro gives 27°23'60" Aquarius.

The first thing I notice is that these are much closer than other comparative examples - in fact, probably well under a second, since the rounding in Astro suggests that the value is between 59.5" and < 60.0" (not greater than the latter), while the former is between 58.5" and < 59.5". So the disparity is not uniformly several seconds.

Also, whereas the example I posted above showed most 1" discrepancies had SF 1" LESS than Astro, in my own chart most planets are 1" GREATER in SF; therefore, this isn't something like a different rounding paradigm (which would consistently bias in the same direction). - I'm not sure what it could be.

Speaking of rounding BTW, I don't think we should ever end with minutes or seconds at 60 - it should tip over ("zero and carry 1"); the exception being that (as you've scrupulously done) we shouldn't tip into a new sign unless it has gotten all the way to 30°00'00.00".
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:06 am

Trivial to change the rounding algorithm. I will express a longitude of 29 Ta 59' 59'.95 as 30 Ta 0' 0"' or 30 Ta 0 if rounded to minutes.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:07 am

Sweet :)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:01 am

Rounding fixed, BTW this is my 500th post :)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:28 am

mikestar13 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:01 am
BTW this is my 500th post :)
Congratulations, Mr. Sidereal Field Agent.

You have ascended from the zodiac level to the more encompassing "sidereal field" within which the zodiac exists - and you're halfway to the Synetic mysteries.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:55 am

Back to the planet calculation issue...

On a FB Solar Fire user's group, I posted this morning:
Could someone with SF 9 please confirm a calculation? (I have ver. 8.1.x.) I need Moon's longitude for August 19, 2021, 8:21:39 PM EDT. (Location doesn't matter, but use Washington, DC if you like.) If you can give this to me as a Sidereal longitude, it will save a possible rounding error when I convert from Tropical, but I'll take either. -- Over the weekend, we found multiple examples of discrepancies (usually several seconds and, in one case, more than 1') in Solar Fire Moon positions vs. multiple other platforms using the same calculation base and, before diving in deeper, I want to rule out it being a version-specific issue. -- Thank you.
From someone with the newest version, I was given a Tropical longitude of 25°02'13" Capricorn vs. my SF giving 25°02'18". I've asked for confirmation that the 3 wasn't a misread of an 8 p[it was a 3: confirmed], but that became moot with another answer that I give her in full. The link may be useful to you, as the output confirms that the SF9 answer is correct to within a fraction of a minute but mine isn't, and the poster is misinformed on time zones (as you'll see).
...the precise ecliptic longitude for comparison of the body-center of the Moon on 2021-08-20, 0:21:39 UTC, is 25° Cap 02'12.4555". This according to JPL Horizons, the gold standard. Like Pam said, we don't have an ayanamsha, hence the tropical position.
On the contrary, location does matter, since the Moon cannot be in the same position for observers at two different longitudes with both clocks arbitrarily synchronized. So, to prevent confusion on this, I've converted the time given to UTC with the understanding that the local time in question is exactly 4 hours earlier (EDT) and precisely 75°W the day before.
It seems that your SF version is less accurate for this time tag than the version Pam is using, if both results were typed correctly. Other time tags would have to individually be compared to determine which version is closer to the gold standard with the Moon or other objects.
For comparison, the real-time SE calculation for this time tag is: 25° Cap 02'12.5023", 0.0468" difference with JPL Horizons. As we know, the delta-T value is slightly different between both sources, however, the UTC time scale is used in both:
https://www.astro.com/cgi/swetest.cgi?b ... we&f=&arg=
BTW, where my SF gives Sidereal 0°00'01" Cap (SF calculated the ingress time), Danica said hers gives 0°00'00". Tropically, my SF Moon was 05" later than the first answer I was given (and 6" later than the one quoted from JPL in the second quote).

Astro gives 29°59'54" Sag, 7" earlier than my SF and agreeing, within about 1", with SF9 and JPL.

Consequence: The lunar ingresses I've been relying on for my mundane work are minutely off. (Only a touch.) The angles are only 1-2' off, which admittedly is far better than we used to get using an ephemeris. I suppose I have to break down and pay for SF 9 one of these days (I've avoided it partly for cost, partly because I don't need any of the new features they advertised, and partly because there is a nontrivial number of people who have reported weird buggy behavior here and there).
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:16 pm

It seems there was a tiny bug in SF 8, now fixed in SF 9. But there are apparently other bugs in 9. :( :evil:
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:36 pm

It was suggested the improvement was in the SE. I've asked if there are downloadable SE updates for SF.

In any case, it looks like Astro will be better :)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:03 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:36 pm
It was suggested the improvement was in the SE. I've asked if there are downloadable SE updates for SF.

In any case, it looks like Astro will be better :)
:D :!:
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:13 pm

I may have to start calculating lunar ingresses from Astro then inputting the derived time into SF (once the ingress module is done).
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:44 pm

A little slower but more accurate that way, and it is how I do it currently (but with Astro) pending coding Astro's Solunar module.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:20 pm

Mike, I can't tell where my current Astro version stores any of its program components, specifically the Swiss ephemeris files. Can you remind me?

I lost track of where the updates left off with 0.1.3. Should data files now be in (a folder within) the active Documents folder? Mine is still falling into an unused former documents folder instead of the active Documents folder listed in the registry.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:44 pm

The files are be in your documents folder as determined by the Python path functions, I suspect Python is misidentifying the folder. The new version will cross check the registry and prefer the registry in case of conflict. I will also have a chart collection that was installed in C:\Astro or in location identified by the Python path function if different from the registry folder moved. Chart collections will not need to be manually imported.

The Swiss Ephemeris files must be installed in C:\sweph\ephe and the Eris file (s136199.se1) must be in C:\sweph\ephe\ast136. There is a problem with the SE function in the SE dll that should allow the path to be ephemeris files to be changed but it isn't working correctly. I will be writing the Swiss Ephemeris message board. If the problem can be fixed, I'll install the ephemeris files in a subdirectory of the install directory, as I tried in the Astro version which gave all 0's for the Eris position.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:45 pm

Someone I know from SF got back to me and, while not exactly saying "We've checked the math and," etc., his answer was most interesting:
If you are saying that SFv8 may not be as accurate as SFv9, that is definitely possible. SFv8.0.1 came out in May 2011, and the last update to that version (v8.1.5) came out 17 January 2014. The Solar Fire 'engine' had an improved accuracy when v9.0.13 was released that same month in 2014, and the program has continued to improve in the years since then (latest v9.0.29). So if a program that was released within the past year or so has a more accurate lunar position than one that came out seven or more years ago, I would not be surprised in the least.
One of the things I find especially interesting is that none of the advertising for SF 9 mentions an improved calculation engine. It just mentions things like, "Now with over 1,000 asteroids!"
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:51 pm

Asteroids. At least people seem to be doing research on them, although they're also trying to use them as meaningful in charts. Some of the charts I've seen on facebook, I can't make head nor tail of through the maze of aspect lines.

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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:05 am

Asteroids: some mainly Tropical astrologers want them, I don't. Astro has the luminaries, the planets Mercury thorough Neptune, the "dwarf planet" Pluto -- amply proven since 1930--and Eris which is still being tested but looking highly promising (thanks Jim). If ongoing testing in the future indicates another body (say Sedna) should be included, I will (or whoever takes over the project when I pass. I'm releasing Astro open source partly in hope it will outlive me). I will never include random space junk. I remember Rob Hand's humorous quote in Horoscope Symbols. Future client after a reading: "I have Moon conjunt the Space Shuttle. My astrologer says it makes me flighty." :)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:22 am

:Standing Ovation:

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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:41 am

I have discovered a Python module that wraps the SE dll. I will explore if the author figured out how to wrap swe_set_ephe_path so it works (which I've been unable to do). If I use his module, the author has released it open source, so there are no licensing issues.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:36 pm

Doesn't work ephemeris files will continue to be installed as above: viewtopic.php?f=60&p=39742&sid=87ce4dcd ... 400#p39721
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Progress Report

Post by mikestar13 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:38 pm

I have all the code written and tested for creating/loading/saving aspect/angularity sets. Now I am coding how to use those options to show the chart.
After that, finish documentation, build the executable and the install, and final testing. Estimated release sometime Saturday.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am

Looking forward to this one.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:04 am

I am currently deriving the main angularity curve for the mid-quadrant model. I'm presuming the minor angle adjustment is the same as in the cadent cusp model case.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:19 am

Yes
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:57 pm

Got the alternative angularity curve for the mid quadrant model, also user options will control the width of the foreground (for the purpose of displaying the F symbol. The % calculated for angularity will remain the same. But if the user wants to highlight planets within say 3 degrees PVL of a major angle (or comparable distance from a minor angle.), he can do so. Now onto aspects, when I'm done I'll be ready to start documentation. On target for Saturday.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:08 pm

The aspect code was much less time - consuming to write than I thought (as was the mid-quadrant angularity code). Tomorrow just a few finishing touches on the code, then build and test. I may well announce the release tomorrow night. :D
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:01 am

Writing some short help files for the new option screens. Then testing, testing, testing.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:16 am

:)
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Veronica » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:29 pm

I just ran this on my PC and WOW!! Mike what a clever man you are to design this!! I truly have no idea how to begin to tell a blinking curse what to do... Yea you fully heartedly!!

I had no issue getting it to run, it pretty much did what it needed to do and I just clicked run. No zipping or copying, very user friendly which I was delighted about because I dont like feeling stupid about technology. who does.

I will tell you that the only astro software I have ever used was World Of Wisdom, and Astrodienst, so I cant compare it to Solar Fire or anything else.
I honestly dont know what you want me to write/insert in the two time zone areas. I read what Scales had mentioned about figuring that out, but I dont know where I get that information from. It's not listed on the astro charts. I tried entering the Sidereal Time but that didnt give a chart that looks like mine, the numbers/ degrees and signs weren't correct for my chart.
So I dont know what I'm doing wrong or how to know what to write in those fields for charts to generate. It will not generate a chart with out them.

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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:38 pm

Veronica wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:29 pm
I honestly dont know what you want me to write/insert in the two time zone areas.
The first one is just a label for our convenience. For your chart you can put EST, for your sister EDT. The second is the time conversion of the time zone: For your chart, you can put 5 (5 hours from Greenwich for EST) or for your sister's chart 4 (4 hours from Greenwich for EDT).

And btw Rochester is 43°09 N, 77°37 W, in case you don't have that.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Veronica » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:38 pm
Veronica wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:29 pm
I honestly dont know what you want me to write/insert in the two time zone areas.
The first one is just a label for our convenience. For your chart you can put EST, for your sister EDT. The second is the time conversion of the time zone: For your chart, you can put 5 (5 hours from Greenwich for EST) or for your sister's chart 4 (4 hours from Greenwich for EDT).

And btw Rochester is 43°09 N, 77°37 W, in case you don't have that.
Thanks!

I completely trust that is correct. But I do have trouble with time and time zones. They are just words or acronyms to remind us how far away from one specific location.

so for any chart I want to calculate, I need to know how many hours it is different from Greenwich?
I am West, but if I wanted to do a Russian chart I would just select East with the appropriate hour?
Is that why there is HMS option boxes? so that if I knew exactly how many Hours, Minutes and seconds the location was from Greenwich I could enter a more refined time?

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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:47 pm

Yes to all your questions except the last one: Unless the place was on Local Mean Time (LMT), there is no "more refined time" than it's time zone value.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Veronica » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:16 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:47 pm
Yes to all your questions except the last one: Unless the place was on Local Mean Time (LMT), there is no "more refined time" than it's time zone value.
so then I only fill in the hour box, and always leave the m and s box empty?

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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:45 pm

After 1888, yes.
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:05 pm

Veronica, here is a sample input. (It will got a little friendlier in the next version, I'm told.)
Input.jpg
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Re: Suggestions for Astro version 0.2

Post by mikestar13 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:29 pm

It is a bit friendlier and the users will have options. Announcement coming soon. I have a working install and am doing final testing.
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