Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

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Mike
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Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:34 am

Good afternoon all (or morning, or evening!),

if anyone knows where I can find the raw calculations for most of sidereal astrology's basic processes (i.e. as if to do them by hand), I would love to know so I can incorporate them into my own software. Specifically, I'm looking for calculations for determining where angles are, mundane positions of planets relative to angles, all that fun stuff needed for natal and return chart generation.
Are these given in TNIA? I don't have immediate access to my copy so I can't check.

A couple of different threads of my life are coming together, and have resulted in me 1. wanting to develop software to assist me as an astrologer (as well as others), and 2. needing to do a final project for a programming class I am taking.

I want to write a program that does some things I wish Solar Fire and other programs did - mainly (and ultimately), generate a calendar with only those transits and progressions I care about (i.e. transits to natal, SSR, etc, filtering out crap like Mercury semisquare Ascendant), along with providing solunar return data at the appropriate dates, including mundane angularity. Wouldn't it be lovely to have all of that information in one place, rather than having to cull it from dozens of different screens within Solar Fire?
I'd also love to incorporate the PSSR and other calculations that Solar Fire doesn't do at all.

If this becomes unreasonable to pull off, I'm fine with putting this on the backburner and choosing something else for my final - but I'd love to attempt this if I can.

For those that are curious, my background is several (intense) weeks in pure C, and I've been working in Python for the last 2 weeks.

Thanks all :D

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:46 am

Believe it or not, Mike, there has never been a Siderealist write a book that gives all this stuff. We've used it on and off but never collated it. (We could start a permanent thread here somewhere that lists the formulae and little or no commentary.)

George Noonan wrote a small book that has tons of this stuff. (Mine is in storage. I think another couple of people here have a copy.) I don't see his early one from the '80s in Amazon, and I don't know if his later books have the same information.

We do have spreadsheets here that have some of this incorporated, and you could reverse engineer. Here is something Derek wrote and I restructured that has mundoscope calculations. (It was intended to show how these change with precession and different STs, but calculation for a given chart is just one special case of the more general problem.
http://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1544

Once I had software that did all this for me, I put all the calculation files in storage.
Mike wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:34 am
Specifically, I'm looking for calculations for determining where angles are, mundane positions of planets relative to angles, all that fun stuff needed for natal and return chart generation.
I'm unclear what you mean by "where angles are." DO you mean just calculating the longitudes of the angles? You already have this, right? It's in the chart samples you provided previously.
I'd also love to incorporate the PSSR and other calculations that Solar Fire doesn't do at all.
We'd love that, too :)
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:25 pm

Thank you for the reply, Jim!
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:46 am
Mike wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:34 am
Specifically, I'm looking for calculations for determining where angles are, mundane positions of planets relative to angles, all that fun stuff needed for natal and return chart generation.
I'm unclear what you mean by "where angles are." DO you mean just calculating the longitudes of the angles? You already have this, right? It's in the chart samples you provided previously.
You're right, I do mean calculating the longitudes of the angles.
Do you mean that the appropriate calculations are necessarily included in the (more specialized) spreadsheets in the link you sent?

Reverse engineering spreadsheets is fine; that's a best-case scenario for me!

Do you have any recommendations for a digital ephemeris I can have my software gobble up and spit out into a database?

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:42 pm

Mike wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:25 pm
Do you mean that the appropriate calculations are necessarily included in the (more specialized) spreadsheets in the link you sent?
Question unclear. The spreadsheet I gave includes the calculations for calculating mundoscope positions, which gives the angularity timing you requested. BTW it also has the code for converting longitude and latitude to right ascension and declination, which has many uses for the things you want, and demonstrations of how to adjust natal longitudes for precession so that (say) the natal planets can be included in other frameworks at later points in time: Best use is that it gives the mundoscope positions of within a current solar or lunar return (which will be at a different point in time than birth, often at a different location, always with a different ST, etc.).
Reverse engineering spreadsheets is fine; that's a best-case scenario for me!
That's going to give you a lot of what you want, but not all. It should at least keep you entertained for a little while :)

I just remembered that I put some useful equations in the back of my book Horoscope Calculation, but I don't remember which ones, and I apparently don't have a copy of that book around here.
Do you have any recommendations for a digital ephemeris I can have my software gobble up and spit out into a database?
No, I havent kept track of that. The Swiss that you use seems to be the favorite of "the big boys."
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:52 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:42 pm
Mike wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:25 pm
Do you mean that the appropriate calculations are necessarily included in the (more specialized) spreadsheets in the link you sent?
Question unclear. The spreadsheet I gave includes the calculations for calculating mundoscope positions, which gives the angularity timing you requested.
I'm just brainfarting; that's what I'm trying to get.
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:42 pm
I just remembered that I put some useful equations in the back of my book Horoscope Calculation, but I don't remember which ones, and I apparently don't have a copy of that book around here.
It's now in my Amazon cart. Thank you!

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Mike wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:52 pm
Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:42 pm
I just remembered that I put some useful equations in the back of my book Horoscope Calculation, but I don't remember which ones, and I apparently don't have a copy of that book around here.
It's now in my Amazon cart. Thank you!
I hope it's not a disappointment. I really don't remember what's in there. But, in a worst case, I think you may get some perverse joy out of seeing multiple methods for calculating horoscopes by hand from pre-computer tools.
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:09 pm

I hope it's not a disappointment. I really don't remember what's in there. But, in a worst case, I think you may get some perverse joy out of seeing multiple methods for calculating horoscopes by hand from pre-computer tools.
Anything along those lines at all would be tremendously helpful for me.

If I succeed in this (which will necessarily need to come in several successive stages of functionality), I think it will be really cool and really useful.
At the very least, it will be so to me :lol:

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:33 pm

Mike, a niche Sidereal astrology program has been sorely needed. Riyal was an early attempt, and while creditable it doesn't seem to be keeping current, and the GUI is outdated. Anytime you need tips or a resource, please don't hesitate to ask.

I could point to other Sidereal works, but I believe Mr. E.'s book will have much (if not all) that you need. It's been a long time since I looked at it, too, but it was probably the very last, therefore most complete, compendium of Sidereal formulae printed.

-Derek

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by SteveS » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:13 am

Mike wrote:
I'd also love to incorporate the PSSR and other calculations that Solar Fire doesn't do at all.
Jim responded:
We'd love that, too :)
Indeed!!!

Derek wrote:
Mike, a niche Sidereal astrology program has been sorely needed.
Exactly, even if for only us Siderealists. But if Sidereal Astrology ever makes it into any type teachable vehicle (outside the minds of the Siderealists.), a specialized Sidereal Astrology programs with a unique detailed manual with teachable charts is needed. There is no way interested newer generations of people will ever attempt the learning of Sidereal Astrology without a specialized Sidereal Astrology program. This also applies if Sidereal Astrology ever makes it to Universities somewhere in the future. I don’t know how much longer I have in this life, but if the right Sidereal Astrology program was ever created, I would devote much of my retired time in helping write the teaching manual.

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:50 am

Hi all,

I see the hype is building! It's contagious! :D
Thank you all for the support.

Once I have had time to work on reverse-engineering the spreadsheets already on this site (which means getting through 1.5 more very dense problem sets in my class), I will start posting questions and roadblocks as they come up.

The initial form this takes will be the minimum viable product - probably just an application that accepts birth information and spits out a list of relevant natal aspects and angular planets as a txt file, using the simplest GUI I can fabricate. The rest will follow once the time pressure of this course is off :D

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by SteveS » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:24 am

Mike, my brainstorming mind has always wanted a simple program which computes SSR's and SLR'S for only criteria for WHEN high % for an 'outstanding incident.' Then open a web site making this program/criteria free for everyone in cyberspace to plug in only their BC times of birth. Then write on the same Web Site simple one page instruction sheet for anyone to explore their own lives--past, present, and future with 'outstanding incident' criteria. Same for transiting angular planets to natal chart, and primary angle incidents. Then bring back all the great Sidereal Astrology out of print materials and sell for sustaining enough profits to push the Universities to start teaching. In other words, remove the human astrologer out of this equation completely and let the small free program calculate for the interested people these 'outstanding incident' times for their lives. We already know the wide audience out there who believe in astrology. If a way for free info to lead people to 'outstanding incident' times in their lives would absolutely create a Boom, imo. Also,imo, this would be the best advertisement possible to get the masses interested in Sidereal Astrology material. Steve Jobs has already proven to us the sheer power of a little box in our hands to advance this "age" of information. Of course, out biggest problem is getting all the copyrighted Sidereal Astrology into a mutual copyrighted organization to generate enough profits to sustain a possible Renaissance for Sidereal Astrology with advancement in higher learning. The World is very close to losing the great astrological truths contained within Sidereal Astrology. I do a-lot of brainstorming in my retired years. :)

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:20 pm

I have some ideas along those lines, although not the same exact result. One of my primary goals is indeed to have software that auto-parses "outstanding incidents" across a large amount of data.
I tried to do this manually in Solar Fire, for myself, and I spent HOURS parsing transit and prog data, and looking at something like 24 SLRs, ecliptical charts and mundoscopes. Clearly, there should be a better to cull such large amounts of data, for practical use - so that is the main idea :)

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:26 pm

Yeah, that's mostly why I don't look ahead or in batch. I check the returns a couple of days before they hit.
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by SteveS » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:49 pm

Mike, I am at a huge disadvantage understanding what your mind sees/understands with programing any kind for specialized Sidereal Astrology program, which as far as I know would be the first in history for Sidereal Astrology. But my business mind sees good possibilities for huge marketing potential with time frames for ‘outstanding incidents’ according to writings by Jim and the core principles of Sidereal Astrology involving angularity. Understand—I am not al all interested in profits for me—only for you and other Sidereal Astrologers who have sacrificed their life’s work (extra time) without any financial rewards. I am interested is trying to figure out a way to bring Sidereal Astrology to some type of peak interest to the masses.
Mike wrote:
One of my primary goals is indeed to have software that auto-parses "outstanding incidents" across a large amount of data.
Exactly Mike!!! IMO, you hold the key for the possible business marketing possibilities I see in my mind with Jim’s precise criterial for ‘outstanding incidents’ return charts and other core principles of Sidereal Astrology involving Angularity.

A brief business outline for possibilities-- shooting from my hip:
1: A web site that says: Explore your personal time frames (‘Timing is Everything’) for ‘outstanding incidents’ for free, —past, possible present, and future. The person viewing the Web Site would have to plug in the free online-program written by you their BC birth times---only their BC birth times. Then there would have to be an explanation about locations for their possible time frames for possible ‘outstanding incidents.’ I am guessing we would have to plug an Atlas onto the on-line program—but this should be a relative easy task—but only you know Mike.
2: When the computer program isolated an ‘outstanding incident’ time frame, give the unknown person (they can use an alias name) an option for a nominal fee to contact Jim’s for delineations. If Jim was too busy with his day job, he could share (farm-out) delineations to other members of this forum. Jim would have to determine the fee, but he shares with you this fee for your services for writing the on-line program.
3: If this was able to spring-board for you/Jim with demand, then you have the option to contact other Siderealists who own copyright to Sidereal Astrology writings and alert them to your free online-program with Jim’s ‘outstanding incident’ criteria offering their copyright material for sale on this Web site. You would share in any profits by what books/written material was sold by the copyright owners. This could act as a spring-board incentive for these people who hold copyright material to bring back all the out of print stuff laying completely dormant. I have always wanted to purchase Jim’s copyrighted book ‘Interpreting Solar Returns’ and legally put it back into his ownership—it’s his intellectual property.
4: Another option for you Mike. If the free online program was to spring-board into a success, you could contact Ken Bowser—he is in the process of bringing back Fagan’s all-important AA articles. Your free-online ‘outstanding incident’ Web Site could then become a possible key outlet for Fagan’s AA articles, which you would share in the profits of sales. I even see potential from the Tropicalists camp wanting to explore the purchase of these writings, because they never have been exposed to ‘outstanding incident’ material.
The best advertisement is pure ‘word of mouth’---when it happens—it spreads like a wildfire. The big question remains: Can ‘outstanding incidents’ time frames isolated by the right online-free program for the public world-wide masses become a successful marketing tool??? You and Jim could put your minds together for automating a delineation method for these isolated ‘outstanding incident’ time frames. The delineations are already on Jim’s forum. I would help in nominal expenses if you guys think this is a workable business plan, and only expect my advance nominal expenses to be paid back when the business became profitable. Like I said, I am not interested in sharing in the profits—but if you guys started to make good incomes with this possible business venture, and wanted to send me a bonus check for anything you guys think I deserve—I would gladly deposit the check. :)

Again, I am brainstorming—shooting from the hip.

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:29 pm

My biggest disappointment about SF is how it handles progressions.

What it does: It applies the ayanamsa of the progressed date to the (Tropical) cusps and angles.

What Fagan taught: Apply the SVP of date to the cusps and angles.

This was in all the early works, as well as his worked-out examples in the Solunars articles.

-Derek

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:44 pm

DDonovanKinsolving wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:29 pm
My biggest disappointment about SF is how it handles progressions.

What it does: It applies the ayanamsa of the progressed date to the (Tropical) cusps and angles.
By "progressed date," you mean the calculation date, e.g., the 40th day after birth for the 40th year of life? That's completely correct.
What Fagan taught: Apply the SVP of date to the cusps and angles.
If by "of date" you mean, say, today (the date for which you are calculating progressions), then that's astronomically wrong. I wonder if you are misquoting? (I'd prefer that than thinking Fagan was always completely wrong about this.)

For example, my Tropical progressed Moon for December 10, 2017, 0:00 PST is 24°58' Cancer and (for 34N03'46". 118W18'47") Ascendant is 11°55' Sagittarius. These are calculated for a date 63+ days after I was born, December 12, 1954, at 14:16:03 UT, when he SVP was 5°53'06" Pisces. Therefore, the Sidereal progressed Moon would be 0°51' Cancer and Ascendant 17°48' Scorpio, which is exactly what Solar Fire gives.

One would not use the SVP of December 2017 in order to find out what the Sidereal positions of planets in 1954 were.
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:26 pm

You understand correctly. Please forgive if I get a bit terse when sending from the phone; editing is not easy.

For the planets, no. But, to use your example, the
SVP for December 2017 would be used on the Tropical Ascendant. This was how it done in the Primer and in Stahl's Beginners Manuals, or that's how I remember. Maybe I'm the one who misunderstood; or Stahl had it wrong. I always wondered why the progresses angles were precessed with the SVP-of-date and not the SVP-of-progressed-date. Have I been misled all this time? I distinctly remember wondering about this; it's certainly not something I would have thought of doing.

Confirming what you say, Mr. E., I'm looking at the September 1960 edition of AAM. Fagan was giving a worked-out example of the Natal Quotidian. At a time when he had to teach using Tropical ephemerides, he says "A horoscope computed for this time... and reduced to the sidereal zodiac by adding the S. V. P. Pisces 6°25' [the natal SVP] to all tropical longitudes will give the true progressed horoscope..."

-Derek

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:10 pm

I just went through The Primer and Fagan doesn't say anything about using the SVP of Date that I can find. He's not specific about using the SVP of progressed date but I think if he was using the SVP of date instead, he'd have said as much.

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:51 pm

Well, I'll have to dig up my copies and review them.

Until then, consider this particular matter a big "Neeever mind."

-Derek

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 pm

Maybe it's in Stahl.

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:41 pm

Whew!
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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:49 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:10 pm
I just went through The Primer and Fagan doesn't say anything about using the SVP of Date that I can find. He's not specific about using the SVP of progressed date but I think if he was using the SVP of date instead, he'd have said as much.
You are correct. Checking the sample chart against SF output, the result is the essentially the same; the precession value of 8'29" would be perceptible (looking just at the MC).

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by DDonovanKinsolving » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:08 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 pm
Maybe it's in Stahl.
Yes it is. "Beginners Manual of Sidereal Astrology Vol. 1" page 53: Using President Kennedy's Tropical progressed chart he said "... and the longitudes of the Sun, Moon and Planets [should be computed] for July 11, 1917... The Synetic Vernal Point ... for this date is Pisces 6°24'23". Planetary longitude should be converted to the sidereal zodiac using this S.V.P. For the house cusps use the S.V.P. of date, Pisces 5°48'30". "

So there it is. I took this explicit statement as standard procedure and never noticed that Stahl was out of step with Fagan (and presumably Bradley).

While somewhat miffed that I've been doing it wrong for decades, it's a relief to know that the results from Solar Fire are correct and need no further specialized calculations.

I still wonder what Stahl's thinking was for doing it this way.

Thanks for helping to set me right, guys.

-Derek

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Mike » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:16 am

Status update:
(Captain's log, star date 1-21 2:04pm:)

It's been a little over a month since I first started this; it took me quite a while to get liftoff – the Swiss Ephemeris is incredibly powerful, but equally dense, and has required a lot of nuance and supplementary calculations to get what I want. (The primary issue was wrapping Python variables and argument types correctly for C, but I'll spare you those details :lol: )

While there's no user interface yet, just functions I've written to do gymnastics with data, I am now able to get output that matches Solar Fire for natal data, across a range of dates: I tested real birth data from 1959 and a fake event in 2050, with other stuff in between, and planetary longitudes and latitudes, as well as obliquity and LST, all match. (Getting LST was a real headache for a little bit!)

On my agenda next:
Write code to obtain SVP for a given chart (95% of which is buried somewhere in the Swiss Ephemeris functions)
Reverse engineer and code the angularity calculator spreadsheet into a function
Write stuff to parse aspects and convert 360* longitudes into sign placements (not hard, just lots of lines of code)
Write stuff to dump all of this cleanly into a text file.
Last, I'll make a quick little interface on top.

And then we have the minimum viable product, the completed alpha version of this project (and my final).

It's going to be quite a while until I step it up to start calculating transits, progressions, etc the way I want to, but this is the first major step in that direction.

Thanks for all of the help and resources :)

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Re: Raw calculations for sidereal astrology

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:40 am

This is cool! You're on a roll :)

(I'm unclear what the words "and my final" mean.)
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