Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

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sotonye
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Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:18 pm

Every time I have this transit something bad happens to me. Has anyone else found this to be true or am I imagining things? And if a trend is found here, what could the symbolic explanation be? Why would a benefic's involvement with any planet induce harm?

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:46 pm

What kind of bad?
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:49 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:46 pm
What kind of bad?
An accident of some kind

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:03 pm

That's not typical. I would have to look back at the details of it in your chart, when I get back to a computer. I might expect an impact that affects relationships, even in some cases one that alienates you from other people, but not general malevolence.
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:07 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:03 pm
That's not typical. I would have to look back at the details of it in your chart, when I get back to a computer. I might expect an impact that affects relationships, even in some cases one that alienates you from other people, but not general malevolence.
I did actually have a separation occur about 10 hours before the transit became partile. The accident however occurred while the transit was in effect, and is actually an exact recurrence of what happened the last time Venus interacted with my Pluto (which was last July). I don't want to go into too much detail, but basically a supplement (a regular multi-vitamin) I had had no issue with for a year suddenly gave me violent arrhythmias and severe dizziness, really bad brain fog, and I had to go to the emergency room. This same thing happened with a different multi-vitamin, but again one I have been taking for a while without issue. The really strange thing is that I only took half a dose, with food, and it was just a simple B-complex. Something was just off suddenly

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:10 pm

Transits to your Pluto are also transits to your Mercury, but Venus to Mercury is even less accident-prone than Venus to Pluto.

But right now your progressed Mars is at 5°37' Leo, exactly square your Mercury-Pluto. Mars to Mercury-Pluto is quite appropriate for accidents and injuries. One might argue that Mars to Mercury-Pluto is so accident prone that any transit it to it at all could set it off. The problem with this "easy out" is that transits to non-luminary progressions aren't very noticeable or effective. OTOH transits to partile progressed aspects (no matter what the planet) are sometimes seen as "setting them off."

There aren't any interesting midpoints or other factors My best guess is that this Mars progression to Mercury-Pluto is particularly strong for you.
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:49 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:10 pm
Transits to your Pluto are also transits to your Mercury, but Venus to Mercury is even less accident-prone than Venus to Pluto.

But right now your progressed Mars is at 5°37' Leo, exactly square your Mercury-Pluto. Mars to Mercury-Pluto is quite appropriate for accidents and injuries. One might argue that Mars to Mercury-Pluto is so accident prone that any transit it to it at all could set it off. The problem with this "easy out" is that transits to non-luminary progressions aren't very noticeable or effective. OTOH transits to partile progressed aspects (no matter what the planet) are sometimes seen as "setting them off."

There aren't any interesting midpoints or other factors My best guess is that this Mars progression to Mercury-Pluto is particularly strong for you.
This sounds more like it, I didn't really know that aspects between our progressed and natal charts were worth watching, but I will make note of them now, at least the partile aspects and transits that involve a luminary. Thank you Mr. E!

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 pm

Oh also Midpoints? Have I asked about those already? Do they provide any important info natally?

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by SteveS » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:25 am

Jim wrote:
But right now your progressed Mars is at 5°37' Leo, exactly square your Mercury-Pluto. Mars to Mercury-Pluto is quite appropriate for accidents and injuries.
This sentence jogged my memory and I dug-out my notes from Matthew (a Siderealist) who taught me much Sidereal Astrology, and noted this from Matthew:
Cyril Fagan said progressed Mars aspects can represent more so the time periods in our life for psychical pain.
This Mars progression Jim noted makes perfect astrological sense to me and probably the par-excellent timing symbolism for your ‘accidents/injury’ Sotonye. But why it is sync in with the Venus transit to Pluto is puzzling.

Sotonye asked:
Oh also Midpoints? Have I asked about those already? Do they provide any important info natally?
I think certain midpoints do provide important natal info-- at least to the point of not being overlooked. What astro program are you using?

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:21 am

SteveS wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:25 am
This Mars progression Jim noted makes perfect astrological sense to me and probably the par-excellent timing symbolism for your ‘accidents/injury’ Sotonye. But why it is sync in with the Venus transit to Pluto is puzzling.
Hey Steve, I agree on both accounts. The symbolism is perfect and it is wildly strange that Venus could could cause any harm, but I believe Mr. E is likely right that any transit to a partile progressed aspect might set it off
I think certain midpoints do provide important natal info-- at least to the point of not being overlooked. What astro program are you using?
Really? I didn't know they were that important hmm, and I have solar fire version 9!

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by SteveS » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:17 am

Sotonye wrote:
Really? I didn't know they were that important hmm, and I have solar fire version 9!
Some are important but most are not, imo. Do you know how to view your midpoints in SF?

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:58 pm

SteveS wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:17 am

Some are important but most are not, imo. Do you know how to view your midpoints in SF?
No I'm not sure how to view midpoints

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm

So, to loop back... Yes, I was speculating that maybe any transit at all to this progression is triggering it. That's unusual but not unheard of. In fact, one important school of traditional astrology rests on exactly this idea.

Church of Light's method - a classic early 20th Century approach - has four steps. I'm not endorsing these - I don't find them working rigorously, at least not for most people - but I thought I should explain them.

Step 1: The potential for the event needs to be present in the natal chart.
Step 2: A secondary progression forms within 1°. This is the only aspect that is eventually interpreted.
Step 3: A "minor progression" - meaning, what I call Quarternaries, or month for a year - must contact the secondary progression within 1°. This is reinforcing, i.e., it adds no symbolism but, so to speak, cocks the gun.
Step 4: A transit within 1° triggers this, i.e., pulls the trigger. Again, it adds no symbolism, it merely triggers the secondary progression.

Take it for what it's worth. Experiment to your heart's content.

FWIW, you presently have no "minor progressions" at 5° anything unless we count your North Node (Church of Light would have counted this). At 4°36' Virgo, it has been retrograding across the 2° range where it trines-sextiles your Mercury-Pluto. It leaves that aspect in early July. I'm not overly excited about this :)
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:25 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm
So, to loop back... Yes, I was speculating that maybe any transit at all to this progression is triggering it. That's unusual but not unheard of. In fact, one important school of traditional astrology rests on exactly this idea.

Church of Light's method - a classic early 20th Century approach - has four steps. I'm not endorsing these - I don't find them working rigorously, at least not for most people - but I thought I should explain them.

Step 1: The potential for the event needs to be present in the natal chart.
Step 2: A secondary progression forms within 1°. This is the only aspect that is eventually interpreted.
Step 3: A "minor progression" - meaning, what I call Quarternaries, or month for a year - must contact the secondary progression within 1°. This is reinforcing, i.e., it adds no symbolism but, so to speak, cocks the gun.
Step 4: A transit within 1° triggers this, i.e., pulls the trigger. Again, it adds no symbolism, it merely triggers the secondary progression.

Take it for what it's worth. Experiment to your heart's content.
This is cool Mr. E, I'm putting this down in my notes!
FWIW, you presently have no "minor progressions" at 5° anything unless we count your North Node (Church of Light would have counted this). At 4°36' Virgo, it has been retrograding across the 2° range where it trines-sextiles your Mercury-Pluto. It leaves that aspect in early July. I'm not overly excited about this :)
Hmm what is the north node exactly?

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:53 pm

The intersection of the Moon's orbital plane with the ecliptic.
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Danica » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:55 pm

Ebertin says for the Lunar Nodes, in COSI:
[he has it listed under "Dragon's Head"; the Head and the Tail of the dragon are always in opposition to each other in the zodiac, the Head is the Ascending Node (the symbol similar to the glyph for Leo), and the Tail the Descending (the inverse symbol) ]
Principle:
Association or alliance.

Psychological correspondence:
+ Adaptability, the urge to unite with others, sociableness, good fellowship, obliging manner.
- Lack of adaptability, un-sociableness, anti-social conduct, incompatibility.

Biological correspondence:
The power-body or the astral body, the subconscious memory.

Sociological correspondence:
Meetings, alliances, societies, contact-men, blood-ties, kindred and related people.
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by sotonye » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:24 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:53 pm
The intersection of the Moon's orbital plane with the ecliptic.
Got it thank you

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by SteveS » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:31 am

I have closely monitored the symbolism of the North Node in my life since I was born with the Dragon's Head on my Natal Horizon aspected in tight opposition with Jupiter. I am convinced it has special significance with people 'connections/associations' (Ebertin's words), for good or worse depending on its aspect with other planets. Needs to be angular or partile aspected 0,90, 180 to bring to the forefront of an astrologer's delineated understanding/consciousness, imo.

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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Danica » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:16 am

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:13 pm

Step 1: The potential for the event needs to be present in the natal chart.
Step 2: A secondary progression forms within 1°. This is the only aspect that is eventually interpreted.
Step 3: A "minor progression" - meaning, what I call Quarternaries, or month for a year - must contact the secondary progression within 1°. This is reinforcing, i.e., it adds no symbolism but, so to speak, cocks the gun.
Step 4: A transit within 1° triggers this, i.e., pulls the trigger. Again, it adds no symbolism, it merely triggers the secondary progression.

Take it for what it's worth. Experiment to your heart's content.

FWIW, you presently have no "minor progressions" at 5° anything unless we count your North Node (Church of Light would have counted this). At 4°36' Virgo, it has been retrograding across the 2° range where it trines-sextiles your Mercury-Pluto. It leaves that aspect in early July. I'm not overly excited about this :)
How is the “potential for the event present in the natal” defined?
I.e. would my natal be considered as having Sun-Jupiter, or Sun-Uranus event potential ?
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Danica wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:16 am
How is the “potential for the event present in the natal” defined?
This would be defined according to the school of astrology - remember, these rules were specifically from Church or Light. So, for example, my chart would show the potential of dying in a car accident because the ruler of my 8th house (Venus) is debilited in my 3rd house, partile square Pluto.

But we, of course, would approach this differently. :) A rule of thumb would be if your natal aspects (for example) showed that type of event in the Probable Manifestations of CSI.
I.e. would my natal be considered as having Sun-Jupiter, or Sun-Uranus event potential ?
As originally intended, it would be much more specific than this and not necessarily tied into the same planets. For example, if the Sun-Jupiter or Sun-Uranus event were to be sudden wealth, the closest showing would be simply that you have Jupiter-Uranus rising - highly prone to Jupiter-Uranus themed events your whole life. Since your Sun is in the 5th house, they would expect it would come from gambling.

OTOH if there were reason to interpret it negatively (say, perhaps, because it was "an evil square") then it would probably be phrased "sudden change of fortune" and expected to be sudden losses. The native potential for this, they would say, would be shown not necessarily by anything to do with Jupiter or Uranus per se, but with the fact that you have Sun opposite Saturn, with Saturn the (Tropical Placidus) ruler of your 2nd house.

That's the sort of thing they meant. The "native potential" would be actually where the details come from. It's not "native potential for a theme" (as from an aspect) so much as native potential for a specific event.


Now, coming back to sanity <g>, it's hard to think that any type of Jupiter and Uranus themed event would be unlikely for your chart.
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Danica » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:25 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 pm
Danica wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:16 am
How is the “potential for the event present in the natal” defined?
This would be defined according to the school of astrology - remember, these rules were specifically from Church or Light. So, for example, my chart would show the potential of dying in a car accident because the ruler of my 8th house (Venus) is debilited in my 3rd house, partile square Pluto.

But we, of course, would approach this differently. :) A rule of thumb would be if your natal aspects (for example) showed that type of event in the Probable Manifestations of CSI.
I.e. would my natal be considered as having Sun-Jupiter, or Sun-Uranus event potential ?
As originally intended, it would be much more specific than this and not necessarily tied into the same planets. For example, if the Sun-Jupiter or Sun-Uranus event were to be sudden wealth, the closest showing would be simply that you have Jupiter-Uranus rising - highly prone to Jupiter-Uranus themed events your whole life. Since your Sun is in the 5th house, they would expect it would come from gambling.

OTOH if there were reason to interpret it negatively (say, perhaps, because it was "an evil square") then it would probably be phrased "sudden change of fortune" and expected to be sudden losses. The native potential for this, they would say, would be shown not necessarily by anything to do with Jupiter or Uranus per se, but with the fact that you have Sun opposite Saturn, with Saturn the (Tropical Placidus) ruler of your 2nd house.
:lol:
Now, coming back to sanity <g>, it's hard to think that any type of Jupiter and Uranus themed event would be unlikely for your chart.

Well then, we have the opportunity to test it pretty soon! :D

1/24 - 25
s.p. Ju 11*28' Sc
s.p. Su 12*12' Ta
s.p. Ur 12*37' Sc

m.p. Mo
11*39' Ta on 1/24
12*33' Ta on 1/25

t Pl oct s.p. Sun 48', oct s.p. Ju 04' on 1/24

But there's also another, and with a different theme, during the same time:

my s.p. Moon came to conj. s.p. Neptune and oct r Mars, and on 1/24 Moon is at 3*16' Sag, Neptune at 3*55' Sag; minor progressed Venus is 02*18' Sag (then moves on about 6' per day), and at 6 PM on t Moon is at 3*53' Vir, t Chiron 3*51' Pis

I don't know if they would take into account the Pluto oct as a valid transiting trigger, but the aspect is there (I definitely feel it working! t Pluto oct s.p.Sun).


P.S. Sotonye, your Venus-Pluto thread seems to have eloped with the C.O.L. event-predicting method :)
(LOL, just had to say this, I'll split it later today)
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Re: Transiting Venus to Natal Pluto—Misfortune

Post by Danica » Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:36 pm

For the second case, s.p. Moon and s.p. Neptune (and to r Mars), the potential in the natal:
- angular Neptune
- Sun on the Moon-Neptune midpoint
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