Composite Charts using Natal Factors of Two People calculating their Composite Midpoints.

[Jim Eshelman]

Yeesh

At the risk of sending you into a new frenzy... have you tried solar and lunar returns of Composites yet?

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

have you tried solar and lunar returns of Composites yet?

Don't really know how to do these Jim. Need your input to learn more.

[Jim Eshelman]

Composite of John Lennon & Yoko Ono with transits for John's murder.

c Moon 13°29' Sagittarius
t Saturn 13°53' Virgo
c Mercury 14°22' Sagittarius
c MC 14°24' Virgo

t Mars 18°35' Sagittarius
c Asc 20°21' Sagittarius

t Sun 22°46' Scorpio
c Neptune 23°42' Leo

Transiting Sun was 6° before composite Sun so the old Solar Return cycle was coming to an end. Besides a partile Venus-Pluto square in the December 15, 1979 SSR, the most interesting feature is probably:

SSR Asc 3°54' Cancer
c Pluto 4°03' Cancer

Despite this, I have several examples of Solunars for Composites that simply fail miserably to describe outstanding events in a relationship, so I'm not sure we can count on them.

[SteveS]

Thanks Jim for this input. I have just looked at the SA ASC & MC in my composite chart and noticed 21 years into our marriage SA ASC =SUN-VENUS. This exactly marked the time in the relationship when we were enjoying the proceeds with the sale of our Theater to Regal Theaters. Instead of working 16 hour days in the Theater Business we able to relax and enjoy each other’s company with some travel to bucket lists destinations. Also at this same time in our relationship, SA MC = Jupiter! These two SA hits to the benefics are quite remarkable imo, exactly marking the time in our relationship composite chart where we enjoyed the most $ we ever had in our relationship. The proceeds for the sale of our Theater were split on an equal basis since we were partners in the Theater. The most benefic harmony ever at this SA time frame in the relationship.

It appears based on SAs with our composite chart, they are timing important incidents in the relationship. More research is needed.

[Arena]

Steve, like you see in the post I wrote you (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3089&p=23265#p23257) about different timings of the directed or regressed angles hits to planets within your composite I am just counting the degrees for an approximate timing of those planetary hits. Like you see I asked if there was a particularly Saturnian period 13 years into the marriage because I see the comp AC regresses to Saturn at that time. I was not checking midpoint hits, but I guess that could be explored as well.

But I really need to be able to dynamically put these composite charts into motion with Solarfire to spot check lots of composite charts

I guess you can just make a chart of the composite as if it was a natal and then dynamically move the solar arcs to see planetary hits.

About your best friend... I didn't argue that friendships should be based on the 12th house. I emphasized the fact that you would indeed have a radiating sunshine within the 11th house with whole sign houses, BUT I also explained how a friendship chart could ALSO have planets within the 12th house, especially if the friends connect on a spiritual level and possibly also share their own 12th and 8th house experiences with each other, such as parent's divorce, mother's death, violence within the family that is hidden from the outside world etc.

[Jim Eshelman]

I guess you can just make a chart of the composite as if it was a natal and then dynamically move the solar arcs to see planetary hits.

Not possible. I do wish SF had a feature where you could just input positions and store as a chart, but it doesn't (and, in fact, it would be quite difficult given how SF works). The Composite never existed at any point in history as an actual chart, so you can't calculate it from a time or place.

[Arena]

You got me interested to also look into the composite charts with my children Steve.

Very interesting.
Looking at the most influential planets on the charts.

With oldest son:
Jupiter partile conj MC.
An exact square of Pluto to AC. Pluto is also partile trine the Moon. I guess this explains a "separative theme" as he was always partly shared with his father who did not live with us at any time... and then the final separation that happened in his teenage. Wow, strange to see this.
Uranus square the MC.
Venus widely conj AC, along with Mars and Sun in 1st sign.

Solar arcs:
AC touching Venus in year 7, which is when I started a relationship with his step father.
AC to Mars in year 15, which is when we had a major "fight" and he moved out of the house permanently to his father.
AC to Sun in year 18, which is now when he is blooming, our relationship is good now and he is becoming known for his music.

With middle son:
Pluto partile conj MC in opposition to Venus on the IC.
Sun partile square the AC, sits with Mars and Mer in 4th sign.
Moon-Saturn square.

With daughter:
Mercury is the closest planet to angle, partile conj MC, sitting in conj with Mars in opposition to Moon. Sun is wider, but still foreground about 9° from the MC and Venus is about 5° from the DSC.
Moon is part of a grand trine with Venus and Uranus.
Saturn is partile sq Pluto.
Saturn is about 11° from the DSC with Jupiter on the opposite side about 16° from the ASC.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

Like you see I asked if there was a particularly Saturnian period 13 years into the marriage because I see the comp AC regresses to Saturn at that time. I was not checking midpoint hits, but I guess that could be explored as well.

Yes, and your above words prompted me to first look at angular hits with my wife’s and I composite chart using SAs at 1 degree a year for arcing the midpoints of the composite to the angles, and arching the angles to the composite midpoints. There is one thing we know for sure with SAs and standard charting: angular hits with 0,90,180 times major life events, more so with the 0 & 180 imo. I simplified a mental composite exercise with my composite chart (thanks to your SA observation Arena), first starting with the composite midpoint of my Saturn since I quickly noticed in 13 years from the beginning of our marriage (Jan 1971), composite Saturn SA to composite ASC. This definitely timed the worst economic and emotional downer in the entire history of our 48 year relationship—this intrigued me. Next, I mentally checked to see when our composite relationship experienced the time frame when a SA angle arced to a benefic composite midpoint. I mentally noticed our SA ASC would arc to the partile cnj of composite Sun-Venus in app 21 years from Jan 1971, this just so happened to be within one year when SA MC arched to 180 composite Jupiter. So we have these two important benefic hits with SA angles to our composite chart in 1991-1992: SA ASC = SUN-VENUS and SA MC = JUPITER! This exactly produced the best time in our 48 year relationship from an economic and very happy time in our 48 year relationship! This was the exact time my wife and and cashed-out of our careers by selling our Theater business to a large Theater circuit. I though to myself: Damn, am I discovering something important with this simple SA angular exercise with a composite chart? I am just now beginning to see/understand what Hand saw when he first began to investigate the composite chart and then writing his definitive book on composite charting.

I think it important for us to note and think about: The modern looks-see with a composite chart was done in history in 70’S, only by a handful of very proficient mathematical astrologers, Jim included--they were the only astrologers who could calculate and produce a composite chart. This was the time before astrological programmed personal computers. It is my belief these handful of proficient astrologers could not test a-lot of these composite charts for various reasons, but saw enough valid symbolism with the composite chart to allow interesting possibilities, but from a whole astrological community standpoint the composite chart has died on the vine without much exposure to the astrological community as a whole. In other words: the entire astrological community in the World are not aware of the possible important implications for the composite chart, and relationships are and will always be the number one priority with the World at large. If I was a computer programmer, the first thing I would do is write a composite program which would allow anyone to dynamically cast a composite chart from the beginning of important relationships. If SAs with the angles of a composite chart are indeed timing important timing periods in a long standing relationship, this possible astrological composite program could prove to be invaluable to any long term relationships for possibly helping in managing their relationship with more harmony. With what little research I have done with the composite chart, it is opening my mind to the distinct possibility composite charting has slipped beneath the astrological community's radar as a possible prime chart for important life relationships.

[SteveS]

Here are the A rated birth data for John & Jacqueline Kennedy:
JFK: May 29, 1917 3:00 PM EST, Brookline Massachusetts
Jacqueline Kennedy: July 28, 1929 2:30 PM EST, Southampton, New York

Their composite chart is linked below. They were married Sept 12 1953. The most striking feature in the composite chart based on Sidereal Astrology principles is obviously the composite partile cnj of Moon-Sun. Other main Sidereal Astrology principles are the partile aspects of Saturn-Pluto 90, and partile 120 of Mars-Uranus. Remember, partile aspects with the main principles of Sidereal Astrology ‘reign supreme!’

Now, let’s test Arena’s observation with the possibility that Solar Arcs may work with composite charts signaling important events in the relationship, with the marriage date marking the beginning of a couple’s composite chart. The assignation of JFK occurred Nov 23 1963, app 10 years after the marriage. Nothing shows-up with the SA angles in the composite chart, but there is par-excellent symbolism for the assassination when we Solar Arc the composite’s partile Moon-Sun cnj 10 degrees/years and see it hits a partile cnj with composite Mars, remembering composite Mars is partile 120 composite Uranus. Again, this is par-excellent symbolism for the event of the assassination of JFK pertaining to the relationship of the composite chart.

John & Jacqueline Kennedy Composite:

https://imgur.com/BKxniqC

[Jim Eshelman]

Steve, I think I missed a few posts here... I'm unclear on what the bais is for considering that Solar Arcs (or other 1° directions run only from the date of marriage. You did find an interesting example of that here, but the idea that natural cycles commence from something so arbitrary as a human cultural event makes no sense.

Jack and Jackie's composite Solar Arcs are the positions of their individual Solar Arcs composited for a given date. Partile hard aspects for his assasination are:

d Mars ssq. c Pluto 31'
d Mars ssq. c Saturn 36'
d Jupiter conj. c Pluto 50'
d Jupiter sq. c Saturn 55'
d Merury ssq. r Venus 55'

The closest are directed Mars' aspects to the 05' compoite Saturn-Pluto square, the closest aspect of the composite.

BTW, just mentioning in passing since I don't want to do a hard touch on houses (I still don't think we have any quality evidence houses exist, but do think we should consider how the earliest proponents of Composites used them)... In hindsight, the Kennedy marriage is defined in most people's mind by one event, Jack's murder, and the huge trauma unleashed by that. It's interesting, therefore, that their composite has five planets in the 8th house including both luminaries. Simplest readinig of the chart is, "This relation exists primarily for an 8th house purpose." Those planets are also the concentration point of nearly all the important aspects of the chart, including the Sun-Moon conjunction, Pluto anchoring the Saturn-Pluto square, and Venus anchoring the Venus-Uranus square.

[Arena]

Just to clarify what I was doing with testing the SA movement - I did not say "with the marriage date marking the beginning of a couple’s composite chart" ... I just made the assumption that the start date would be the date the couple "meets as a couple" or starts a relationship. In my own case that was in March 2007, so that is when I started counting the angle movement. That is of course sometimes some years before a wedding takes place - and sometimes a wedding never takes place. The timing of the wedding might even show up as happy time with Venus or Jupiter in the composite chart.

I wasn't even sure we would see anything by this method, but I thought it could be interesting to look into it to see if it seems to mark any milestones within the story of the relationship.

I think that if you want to use the date of the marriage and see SA movements, you should just take the date and time of the wedding itself (not the composite) and then move the angles of that chart to see if they show you a story as well. Possibly the story of this marriage can be see with a combination of charts, the composite, the synastry chart and the wedding chart (if there is a wedding).

[SteveS]

Jim, I am analyzing these composite charts somewhat differently with the standard SA directing of the composite chart itself, but certainly not insinuating there is any fault in the way you, Townley or Hand analyzes the composite chart by forming a new composite chart with two Solar Arcs Natal Charts to a specific time.

I am taking the composite chart as no different than a natal chart and using the cosmobiologist system of Solar Arching the planets and angles, using a simple count of app 1 degree = 1 year since I can’t dynamically set the composite chart-up with SF, basically no different than we would Solar Arc natal planets and natal angles for SA Directions isolating incidents/events in an astrological Natal Life. With my understanding using Hand’s book he tells me to read the composite chart no different as a Natal Chart but reading the composite chart with:

… particular stress laid on personal relationships such as friendship, love affairs, marriage, and the like, but with very little stretching of the imagination they can be applied to almost any kind of human relationship, profession, family , or whatever.

Both Townley and Hand stated they were very impressed using the composite chart with more than two natives which intrigues me very much, but SF will not allow the calculation more than two natives composite chart. This peaks my interest from a family standpoint particularly with dysfunctional families as one unit.

By a deep personal understanding of my wife’s and I 48 year relationship through the composite chart marriage beginning in Jan 1971, I know without a doubt the standard system of SA directing is timing major events using the composite chart beginning with the date of our marriage. So, I want to take other know beginnings of marriages and further test the standard system of Solar Arcing these composite midpoints in a composite chart, timing major events in the relationship. Through my early testing of the composite chart with my own personal astrological techniques, I am now beginning to whole heartily see/understand why Hand made the bold statement:

I have found the technique of composite charts, as described in this book, to be the most reliable and descriptive new astrological technique that I have ever encountered.

I feel strongly we can improve upon Townley/Hand's systems of analyzing the composite chart with simple principles of Sidereal Astrology!

When Arena asked the question could with direct with SAs the Composite chart factors from a beginning point, checking for life events with the relationship composite chart, I thought to myself what a great way to further prove the composite chart for timing major events in a marriage or any kind of relationship as time unfolded with the relationship. Ebertin strongly believed SA directing were co-determinates of fated incidents in the life of a natal chart, and so far with my early testing, I think SA directing the angles and midpoints in a relationship composite chart, are proving these SA directions with the stand alone composite chart are also co-determinates of fated incidents as long as the relationship exists.

It appears the standard method of directing with SAs the composite chart is just another personal astrological self-discovery for me (thanks Arena) on an individual basis with my partile 90 Natal Sun-Uranus. It will soon be forgotten by my mind moving on to other possible discoveries. I also think the SA direction of my Natal Mercury t-squaring my partile 90 Natal Sun-Uranus is timing these recent new discoveries for me with the McWhirter NYSE chart and the Boyd chart, pertaining to SAs directions along with principles of Sidereal Astrology with these new chart discoveries is sparking new learning for me on an individual basis, to be applied in my own individual manner. Hand encourage all astrologers to experiment with the composite chart realizing every astrologer:

…must develop techniques of analysis based on their individual experience, and no one should use my experience or anyone else’s as a substitute for his or her own.

What I really want to be able to do is further testing of the composite chart with standard SA directing with a beginning marriage and an ending divorce as probably one of the major events in a relationship composite life. It certainly livens-up my retired life.

[Jim Eshelman]

I am taking the composite chart as no different than a natal chart and using the cosmobiologist system of Solar Arching the planets and angles, using a simple count of app 1 degree = 1 year since I can’t dynamically set the composite chart-up with SF, basically no different than we would Solar Arc natal planets and natal angles for SA Directions isolating incidents/events in an astrological Natal Life.

No problem with that, ofcourse - it's a close estimate and can be fine-tuned later. Because each person's individual Solar Arc is about 1°/year, the average of the two is about 1°/year.

But it looked like you were only starting this from the date of marriage, three decades into their individual lives, which means the results would be about a sign off.

[Arena]

Steve, can you please tell me how far into your relationship your wedding day took place?
If your relationship start and then a wedding date are very close in time... perhaps the angle movement of the composite will make total sense. However, if the relationship starts like mine, in year 2007 and that's when I start moving those angles and as in my case we see the angle move to Venus in the year when we actually did put up the rings and promise to wed at a later time ... but then it never happens ... the composite chart still exists and still describes the story of that couple, even the SA angle movements.

So I am just emphasising that it may not be the actual date of a wedding that you would use as a start point, but rather just the time when the couple met and started dating. This is why I am asking how close in time those two dates are for yourself and your wife?

[Jim Eshelman]

I'm till unclear on what basis one would pick an arbitrary date (arbitrary in terms of actual astrological factcors) to start counting directions. They are active from birth.

[Arena]

I understand your perspective Jim.

Well, my thinking was that actually there is no relationship between two people until there is an actual relationship in the physical world. F.ex. with my partner - I did not know of his existence nor did I have any kind of relationship with him until I actually did meet him and started dating. I am now going to check the chart for our first meeting as a couple and see if the SA movements of that chart also reveal something to me.

F.ex. with my children, the relationship starts right from their birth. But with other people in my life my relationship with them starts at a certain time and I just wanted to see if the composite chart would reveal any kind of timings of milestones by moving the angles 1 degree per year from the start point of the relationship. I don't know if testing 100 charts will be done - but what we are finding so far is quite interesting.

For you and your partner who are getting married this year, decades into your relationship, I would think the composite might reveal this if moving the angles and planets from the date you starting your courtship. Can you check and tell us if it does Jim? But please, just count one degree for each year since the start date of your courtship/dating (do not correct by 4 degrees) and tell us if the angles or Venus or Jupiter are involved this year, which marks a milestone in the relationship = your wedding.

[Jim Eshelman]

It occurs to me, Steve, that part of what you are seeking here is a way to quickly mentally calculate Solar Arcs in the Composite. This is complicated (compared to a natal) because it doesn't have a single starting point, like a person's birth.

The basic approach is that if you calculate the exact Composite Solar Arc for any specific date, then you can go forward 1° a year from that date on and be "close enough for gov'ment work." The question is how to do this easily.

Here's the easiest key I know: It rests on the fact that, by the time the Younger person is born, their composite directed Solar Arc is already advanced by half the difference in their age, aproxomately. Marion is eight and a half years younger than me, so my progressed Sun had already moved 8°33' by the time she was born. Cut that in half: 4°17', or about 4°.

So, at any point in our lives, our Composite Solar Arc (to the nearest degree) will be her age plus 4°.

Work it out once and you'll see it;s pretty easy. Since she's close to her 56th birthday, our Composite Solar Arc is 56° plus that 4° correction, or 60°.

[SteveS]

OK, I look upon a wedding as normally a very emotional ritualistic major event in the actual life of a relationship, its a birth no matter how much sex or other goings on happened before the actual marriage, otherwise why are there actual marriage ceremony? No different than any other highly ritualistic beginnings the ancients practice. Its damn sure an important beginning with major relationships, and Hand is telling us the composite chart is the most important chart of em all, based on his research! This ritualistic marriage beginning should be able to include all standard astrological techniques of looking into the future for the marriage relationship composite chart. In other words, the way I understand Hand's book, the composite chart is the beginning chart with an actual marriage! Solar Arcs proves to be a gold standard for looking into the future or looking with hindsight for major life incidents with the Natal and by my early research it appears with the composite relationship chart itself.

[Jim Eshelman]

OK, I look upon a wedding as normally a very emotional ritualistic major event in the actual life of a relationship, its a birth no matter how much sex or other goings on happened before the actual marriage, otherwise why are there actual marriage ceremony?

Of course. And this makes the wedding chart itself a valid "radical" chart. Even with people for whom it is not the kind of event you describe, it is still a significant legal contract, and those akso are valid charts (valid "starts") on their own.

But you would't (for example) start your own solar arcs (of your birth chart) from your wedding date (or a job start date or some other date) - you'd always take them from your birthdate. Even the most romantic person proclaiming, "My life didn't begin until I met you!" doesn't mean that literally. They had progressions and directions and solunars and transits long before.

So what you are doing makes sense when applied to the wedding chart itself - what really begins at that moment - but not to some other chart that did not begin at that moment.

In other words, the way I understand Hand's book, the composite chart is the beginning chart with an actual marriage!

I'm not sure what that means. A Composite chart is a product of two (or more) other birth charts and exists as soon as both people are born. It exists decades before they actually knew each other.. It doesn't begin at some other date later in time.

Let me give you an example. Marion and I first met in May 2001, years beore we had a "significant" relationship. We met at a gathering of friends and, while we had enough casual interaction to detect that there was probably an excellent friendship, it didn't go any further for many years.

On that first meeting, though, the Composite was already "in play." Our Composite Ascendant is 3°37' Cancer, and the Compoite's Solar Arc composite Moon was 3°11' Cancer. Composite SA Jupiter at 22°16' Gemini squared Composite MC 21°58' Pisces. That shows something of the "first meeting" experience.

There were also restrictions and limitations in play. (I was in another relationship at the time so, even had "sparks" flown, there would have been barriers.) This was also shown by the Composite solar arcs of our first meeting. cSA Venus 7°10' Pisces was square composite Saturn 6°54'. cSA Saturn 18°24' Capricorn was opposite composite Sun 18°15' Cancer. That then there is the strangely psychic, surrealistic cSA Neptune 21°52' Scorpio opposite composite Moon 21°42' Taurus. These many dynamics were in play in advance ofour meeting - setting up the conditions of the meeting and the conditions in our lives at the time.

[SteveS]

I understand where you are coming from Jim. IMO, one can start a relationship composite at any specific time they so choose, only they would know the best time to possibly start a Composite from a possible beginning point. In my composite relationship chart with my wife of 48 years I chose to begin the composite with our marriage date and it damn well is proving the standard procedure for SA directing is timing precisely to the exact year very significant incidents in our marriage.

Another most excellent example: When SA composite Saturn (34 years from beginning of marriage, Jan 1971) partile cnj composite Sun-Venus partile cnj--- is the first time our marriage was tested with serious seducing separating influences from other persons which came very close to splitting the marriage apart. Without knowing how each of us individually reacted to this Saturn influence, after the fact it was known to us, we both told the other persons we were happily married; otherwise, we both would have jumped in bed with the other persons for a very long time If there was ever a time in our marriage where I though seriously about a possible divorce was when SA composite Saturn Arc to composite Sun Venus, same for her as well. This standard SA directing from a beginning point of a marriage is what is proving big time to my Mercury mind the Composite Chart is a very important chart no matter the different astrological techniques used for analyzing the Composite Chart.

I doubt you will every publish another book, but if you ever decide to do so, if I had the writing talent you have as a Sidereal Astrologer, probably an updated Composite Book (its been 40 years since Hand's book) along with a correct composite computer program would be well received if there is still a sizable astrological community left like there was in the 70s???

[Jim Eshelman]

I don't ever see myself writing anything more than a few pages on the Composite chart. Why is a new book needed?

And my plan is to get, over the years remaining, one gigantic book ready to go or published - worked up to with several lesser volumes building toward an "A to Z" type work of Sidereal astrology. One must simply live long enough...

IMO, one can start a relationship composite at any specific time they so choose, only they would know the best time to possibly start a Composite from a possible beginning point.

One can certainly choose to start a relationship whenever one wants, but the Composite chart is a mathematical product that exists independent of when a relationship starts. One can have (has!) a Composite chart with billlions of people one will never meet. (It's not good for anything, but the Composite exists in each case because it's simply a relationship.)

[Arena]

May I please ask you both to answer the questions I asked above?

Steve, how long a time passed from when you met and started the courtship with your wife and until you got married? I see you mention your relationship was tested... it seems to be at a similar timing for the SA Pluto to your comp AC, right?

And Jim, can you please tell us what you see when you move your composite from the time you actually started the courtship with your partner and then if something special is going on this year, 2019, when the couple gets married? Just by moving one degree for each year from the start date of your relationship until now?

[Jim Eshelman]

Here's my Composite with Donald J. Trump. Laugh yourself silly

[SteveS]

Jim asked:

Why is a new book needed?

Because relationships are the priority! It seems to me since Composite teachings came out so long ago preceding the personal computer, astrologers worldwide would relish a new book with lots of examples mixed for the first time with certain Sidereal Astrology teachings, now with a PC in most households. I was very familiar with all of Robert Hand's seminar teachings back in the 70's-80s, and never did I see any specific seminars from him or any other astrologer on the Composite Chart. But maybe a wider astrological audience in California at that time?

Jim wrote:

One must simply live long enough..

You got that right!

[Jim Eshelman]

And Jim, can you please tell us what you see when you move your composite from the time you actually started the courtship with your partner and then if something special is going on this year, 2019, when the couple gets married? Just by moving one degree for each year from the start date of your relationship until now?

Applying 1°/year from that time forward, nothing at all is partile this year.