Thomas Jefferson

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Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:25 pm

(5/3/2017)

Thomas Jefferson was born April 13 (NS), 1743, in Shadwell, VA. There is no recorded birth time. the most circulated chart is a rectification from scratch (what I call a "spectification) by Doris Chase Doane, and it is the one I use in my catalogue of U.S. Presidents' charts since my standard for that catalogue is "there must be a timed chart for everyone, using the best available - however good or bad "best" might be."

It seems to be in conflict with reports that his father soon hopped on a horse and rode off to share the news. This suggests a birth time no sooner than sunrise.

I'm starting this thread, first, to collate a few key Jefferson events of the right kind, and then to see if there are obvious astrological patterns pointing to a time. I will start with noon LMT, as both the center of the day and the center of the daylight.

1768 - Build Monticello
1772 Jan 1 - Married
1776 July 4 - Declaration of Independence ratified (he was primary author)
1782 Sep 6 - Wife died, great grief for him
1790 Mar 22 - Became first U.S. Secretary of Stte
1796 Dec 7 - Lost presidency (I think this is the date the EC voted)
1797 Mar 4 - Inaugurated Vice President
1800 Dec 3 - Elected US President (I think this is when the EC voted)
1801 Mar 4 - Inaugurated US President
1803 Oct 20 - Congress approved Louisiana Purchase, which he had strongly urged
1826 July 4 - Died
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Secondary Progressed Moon

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:25 pm

As a first impression, I want to watch his progressed Moon for these events. I won't record it exhaustively, just the impressions that touch me which I think are important.

Perhaps the most important date in the list is the death of his wife. With Moon at noon on his birthdate at 25° Scorpio, we have to keep an eye on transiting Jupiter at 29° Scorpio and transiting Saturn at 3° Sagittarius. His Moon could be as late as 0°31' Sagittarius (what a different twist on thinking about his chart - and Sag Moon is the most common in the history of U.S. presidents, though all of them came before the Civil War, especially among the Founders; but, despite the sense that a Sagittarian influence is starkly right for Jefferson, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he was necessarily born in the last hour of the day).

In any case, his Moon can't be late enough to catch the Saturn transit, and we should be leery of allowing it to be in the range where Jupiter could be conjoining it. If he were born in the last minute of the day, though, then progressed Moon would be 0°48' past exact square to progressed Saturn. This, too, is at odds with the "father on horseback" story, but perhaps less so late at nigh than early in the morning. His wife's death makes a (preliminary) strong astrological argument for a birth of about 11:00 PM - first impression only! - which would also give a natal Moon of 0°01' Sagittarius. Oh, I almost missed it: This puts transiting Pluto (14°43' Cap) semi-square his natal Moon for the date.

Declaration of Independence. Pluto transits within minutes of conjunct his Uranus for this date, so this conjunction was likely prominent someplace on an angle. We need to keep this in mind.

The most promising Moon aspect isn't possible - if it were several hours into the next day, he would have p. Moon op. natal and progressed Jupiter. I don't know if transiting Mars in the last minutes of Taurus (opposite that 11 PM natal Moon) is descriptive - I know there was heated debate, and he was passionate for the event, but I still don't know if it's the best rendering.

But dang... that 11 PM Moon for the writing and adoption of the "Declaration... Setting Forth the Causes and Necessity of Their Taking Up Arms" (7/6/1885) puts a partile Jupiter-Uranus conjunction in the exact degree of his SLR MC for Philadelphia - square his natal Jupiter near Ascendant. This is pretty impressive. It is getting harder to ignore the 11 PM chart. It also puts that Pluto-Uranus transit 2° from his SNQ MC - if I make it exact, Moon backs into Scorpio, but everything is right on the edge.

Inaugurated Vice President. A minor factor... transiting Sun exactly squares p Moon for the 11 PM time. The birth would have to be hours into the next day for a progressed Moon-Sun opposition.

Elected President over Adams. For 11 PM time, there is a partile progressed Moon-Uranus conjunction. I don't know if this fits except in generic ways where several things could fit. It's not wrong, I just don't know how right it is.

Died. No partile hits to either Moon, though there are many planets nearby, a few degrees this way or that. Hard to assess easily.

to my surprise, I have come out of this first pass with a birthtime of about 11:00 PM as a strong contender.
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Transits

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:26 pm

I'll switch gears, now, to simple transits, with particular attention to natal angles, to see if this time continues to hold. I will only list something I find useful to the quest.

Wife's Death. Transiting Neptune 1°+ shy of crossing his MC for this time. More to the point, though, I think is t. Uranus exactly on his WP. (The Neptune crossing could be for the weeks and months of profound mourning that came a little later.) What puts me off most, though, is t Jupiter on his Asc for this time, Jupiter and Saturn evenly splitting their conjunction with the natal Moon. t Pluto is 0°18' from semi-square r Moon.

Marriage. Well, first of all, it was almost precisely his Saturn Return - only 0°07' wide. Uranus conjoined his Venus 017' and opposed his Pluto. These fit the event, they just don't help with the birth time.

Declaration of Independence debated and ratified. Lots of important transits, none of which help with the time perhaps. Pluto conjoins his Uranus 0°09'. Ah, wait, I'd missed it... and I really don't know if it' a fit or not... but t. Neptune square the natal Moon 0°48' This puts his natal Moon in line with the Mars-Neptune square on that day (Mars transiting his Dsc over the prior days, and 24' from opposing the natal Moon). I know there was debate and stirred passion, I just don't know if it's this sort of symbolism. It does, however, match the aggressive populism he was putting forth. Going further, Uranus is exactly semi-square his Sun, Saturn semi-squares his Saturn (a destiny moment aspect). For 11 PM birth, t Jupiter is on his natal WP.
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SLRs

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:27 pm

OK, if we're I the ballpark (and not going back to start over) most of the SLRs should be solid. Let's see how they go...

We've already seen the SLR for the 1775 Declaration. It was staggeringly good. The SLR for the Declaration of Independence a year later is also hardly a let-down, with Uranus rising.

Wife's death. Pluto in the exact degree of MC, opposite Mercury on IC. His natal Venus-Pluto op. isn't all that far from the horizon. Excellent for the event!

Then - even more impressive - the Demi-SLR copies it! Pluto is 2° from MC, this time in close opposition to Venus. So, both a natal and transiting Venus-Pluto opposition stretches along the angles.

With what's gone before, this and the 1776 SLR are nearly enough for me to say, "This is it!" But we should look at the rest.

Married. Sun and Mars conjoined, straddling Descendant - quite appropriate symbolism for a man's marriage, especially in that era. Natal Mars is on IC. the Demi-SLR then had only natal Venus on WP, conjoined by Uranus.

Died. t Mars exactly on IC, r Mars widely rising. Fine enough, not exciting. But then the Demi-SKR the day before he died has t Saturn minutes from MC. Bingo!

Lost Presidency. Quite disappointing chart. Venus on MC opposite his Sun, square his Uranus. I suppose one could say he was elected VP that day (he was), but I don't really think this chart fits.,

Those were all for Monticello or nearby. Now for New York:

Became Secretary of State. t Saturn exactly on IC, on his Mercury and square his Moon; more distant Sun on angle. Probably fitting, but not obviously so. Demi-SLR day of the event had more or less nothing, just some wide, vague Neptune (which was there anyway, since t Neptune was opposite his Sun at the time).

Inaugurated VP. More Neptune. It is on MC exactly, with natal Neptune widely setting. This may reflect his attitude to it, I'm not sure. It's not the chart I expected.

Elected President. More of the same (looks a lot like the Demi above). Mostly Neptune, not a strong chart. However, the Demi is a powerful and important chart. Natal Jupiter-Saturn (politics etc.) straddle MC. Transiting Pluto on IC. Transiting Neptune rising conjunct natal Pluto (rising), square natal Mars. I like it!

Inaugurated President. QA chart of struggle and loneliness, of authority and "fioding one's moment." In other words, I think it's pretty good. Natal Venus-Pluto along meridian squared by natal Mars rising, Natal Saturn (and, lesser, Jupiter) below Asc. Transiting Sun-Saturn opposition across horizon along natal Mars, square natal Venus-Pluto. There are no other aspects on the day of the SLR that matter unless you wanted to shift it two hours earlier and put Jupiter opposite natal Uranus on the horizon (which I don't think really fits for this man at this point in history). - The Demi is cleaner, with Pluto opposite his natal Jupiter, both square Ascendant.

Louisiana Purchase approved. SLR on the day Congress voted it in. I thought this might be Jupiter on an angle, and I didn't get that; but I did get natal Uranus exactly rising squared by a Sun-Venus conjunction, with Neptune at MC. Not sure about this.

Conclusion thus far: Most of these are amazing! None of them are entirely wrong, and only a few are ambiguous enough to not get a clear endorsement. I do think we're on the right track.
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Primary progressed angles

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:30 pm

Finally - I hope it's "finally" - I'll to see if "progressed angles" support these and allow a refinement.

Wife's death. MC conj r Pluto -0°08', conj. p Pluto +0°51', op. r Venus +0°46'.

Lost presidency to Adams. p MC sq p Saturn -0°39', sq. r Saturn +0°15'.

Inaugurated Vice President. p MC sq p Saturn -0°27', sq r Saturn 0°28'.

Elected President. p Asc sq r Pluto -0°20', sq. r Venus +0°34'

Inaugurated President. p Asc sq. r Pluto 0°00', s. r Venus +0°54'

Louisiana Purchase approved. I said before that I thought Jupiter would show for this. Try: p MC sq r Jupiter +1°09', sq p Jupiter -1°06'. I'm not sure whether we should count this at all but, if we do, notice that p. MC for the even hour is about 0°02' from the Jupiter/Jupiter midpoint.

I'm stunned at this... after how easily the fairly unlikely-seeming time fell out of the data, by looking at the right event in the right way.
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Wed May 10, 2017 11:30 pm

I am prepared to say, with more confidence than usual on a spectification, that Thomas Jefferson was born within a couple of minutes (later, not earlier) of 11:00 PM, and that we have one more Sagittarian Moon president, and one less Scorpio Moon president, than I previously thought. Here is the proposed birth chart.

Image
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by staragewiz » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:36 pm

Jefferson and Madison had a very close political relationship and friendship.
Jefferson' Mercury 6Pices37 conj. Madison's Sun 5Pices00 angular-IC
According to astro.com his birth time gets a Rodden B rating, if accurate
Jefferson's Mercury would also be on Madison's IC. These Founding Fathers communications
are well documented and they stayed close friends throughout their lives.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w6l54ope9ght4iu/file.jpg?dl=0
Last edited by staragewiz on Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:42 pm

Thanks. - Could you please delete this attachment and host the image off-site? It helps with web hosting storage space management/costs.
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by staragewiz » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:08 am

What do you mean by hosting off site? Jefferson's chart is here why not mine?

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:43 am

staragewiz wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:08 am
What do you mean by hosting off site? Jefferson's chart is here why not mine?
By all means, I want your chart to display here. However, to display it here, it doesn't have to exist on the same web server as the forum. For example, my copy of Jefferson's chart above is not on the Solunars web server.

Some people use various online places (perhaps someone here can mention what they use?). I use OneDrive for all my online storage (you can get a few gigs of free space just by creating a Microsoft account), and I can then embed the image in a post. (Instead of adding an attachment, you click the Insert Image button at the top of the composition window and paste the image's URL in the middle).

That way the image isn't actually stored on my web server, but on wherever you choose to store it, and the forum software reaches out to that location and displays it here.

For example, go to my May 10, 2017 post above where I give Jefferson's chart. Hit the Quote button so you get a replica of my post. You'll see, at the bottom, a pair of img tags with a long URL in the middle - this is the code to where my actual picture is stored on OneDrive. It looks like this:

Code: Select all

[img]https://dl9uha.bn1304.livefilestore.com/y4mnQHgyLQTikLBq1udxmLx_HjsIkFSKPkaDpYIZg7SQO67PjKPDHXuVrRG3ZjHPp8jl8tqnjQ8fS3PcYCzIcUcu87SRTLR1oR8zIqXzPRw-5qJZch5QFU89hwGWz1KJq8-la0KF7mvud2AaLBYxNQqQWjmJeaCPE3xG3iDUkia_-Ls8s91DgJTlhavxCtx5NO_2mu_pu_iw1CV0R2bZfUjNw?width=454&height=453&cropmode=none[/img]
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by sotonye » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:26 pm

I use google drive to link pictures here, if I didn't use that I'd use Dropbox, and SteveS uses Imgur which is also very good

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:36 pm

sotonye wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:26 pm
I use google drive to link pictures here, if I didn't use that I'd use Dropbox, and SteveS uses Imgur which is also very good
FWIW I stopped using Dropbox because, even when I paid a lot of money for a professional account, they have a measured limit on how many 'shares' you can use - they want to discourage you from using it as an FTP site, in other words. So every few months, when there was a lot more activity on the site (every view of a post with a Dropbox-hosted image counts as an 'access'), they'd shut down my account for a couple of weeks. Sucked.

Fortunately, OneDrive solved this (and I'm sure Google Drive would to: I just work hard to make sure that everything possible is Microsoft-centric, YMMV).
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by sotonye » Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:56 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:36 pm
FWIW I stopped using Dropbox because, even when I paid a lot of money for a professional account, they have a measured limit on how many 'shares' you can use - they want to discourage you from using it as an FTP site, in other words. So every few months, when there was a lot more activity on the site (every view of a post with a Dropbox-hosted image counts as an 'access'), they'd shut down my account for a couple of weeks. Sucked.
Oh what, that's terrible! Thank you for informing me, I've always thought of Dropbox as a transfer service and I'm sorry to hear that they discourage this and that they gave you trouble.
Fortunately, OneDrive solved this (and I'm sure Google Drive would to: I just work hard to make sure that everything possible is Microsoft-centric, YMMV).
I'm also glad you found a good solution/alternative and I think Google Drive would work as well

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by staragewiz » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:10 am

Sorry, still not clear on how exactly to post chart somewhere else and then still display here.
Perhaps you could give a step by step formula to do the transfer. My internet tech proficiency
has stalled in middle school. But please give more precise instructions and I'll be happy to do as
you ask.

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:35 am

staragewiz wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:10 am
Sorry, still not clear on how exactly to post chart somewhere else and then still display here. Perhaps you could give a step by step formula to do the transfer. My internet tech proficiency has stalled in middle school. But please give more precise instructions and I'll be happy to do as you ask.
Using OneDrive, I first edit and store the file in my OneDrive cloud storage space. (Several ways to do that).

Next (picking the easiest variation to explain) I go to OneDrive.com (I have it set to automatically log in; otherwise, it requires your user name and password) and navigate to the folder where my image is stored. (For example, I have chart images in the folder Public\Solunars\Charts.)

After finding the picture (chart) I want to share, I right-click on it and pick Emhed. A panel opens from the right and, if I've never shared it before I have to click the Generate button to generate the right code. For one chart, for example, it gives me this: (copy it to your clipboard):

https://2q40oa.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mzY9 ... pmode=none

To cause the chart to appear in a post, in the composition window click the Insert Image icon at the top (probably 9th button from the left across the top, looks like a small framed picture). This puts img tags in your post (I can't type them exactly as they appear or they'll disappear in my post). While your mouse is still between the open and close tags (i.e., immediately after clicking the Insert Image icon), paste the generated code.

You can hit the Preview button to see how it looks, or just click Submit and and see the finished post. In this example, it looks like this:

Image
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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by staragewiz » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:18 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:42 pm
Thanks. - Could you please delete this attachment and host the image off-site? It helps with web hosting storage space management/costs.
Think this on the right track?
So, if somebody wants to see this chart they have to open the Dropbox link?
Otherwise chart won't display or can it?

Found Dropbox easier to navigate than One Drive.

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Re: Thomas Jefferson

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:37 pm

You can do it that way, but it has the disadvantage you mentioned (one has to click the link). With OneDrive you can imbed it directly if you want.

I'm not clear about what was hard to navigate about OneDrive. It similarly takes you into a space where you can create folders and store content. If you have a Windows 10 computer, it's natively built-in and you just navigate it like a local folder on your computer; if not, you can use the web site or install the OneDrive component.
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