Charles Jayne Main Forecasting Methods

[Arena]

Wow! Yes indeed, stunning symbolism. I had already seen the d. MC to Pluto.

The partile Moon-Jupiter is also GREAT. It seems to be a consistent success story to have Moon-Jup. I guess the strength is more in a conj/opp than it is for squares even though they are dynamic.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

Wow! Yes indeed, stunning symbolism. I had already seen the d. MC to Pluto.

Jayne’s Arc methodology for Trump on day of election most certainly explains to me the manifested landslide victory for Trump. Arena, you recently asked me about transit aspects to Jayne’s arc directions. I noted t. Uranus 00,30 Tau is partile conjunct to Trump’s Converse Solar Arc PL 00,03 Tau and his r MC 00,19 Tau. This transiting combo brings in par-excellent symbolism for him experiencing an unexpected (Uranus) USA voting revolution (Uranus-Pluto), which thrust him back into the White House. This is actually a transiting Uranus Paran which would probably mean this was his most potent direction of em all!

As a side note: On Nov 16 I have an “outstanding incident” Mercury-Jupiter (fortunate communications) DSLR, backed-upped with a partile Sun-Uranus 180 falling partile on my r Jupiter-Node, all angular on my r ASC. I am hoping this brings me back into contact with Scott who has an audio from a seminar many years ago explaining more about Jayne’s work, and the possibility of Scott finding an astrological program that accurately calculates Jayne’s Declination Arcs for Solar Arc, Vtx Arc & ASC Arc directions. In the books I am studying Jayne has said the most important Arcs to research/study for rectification are the Declination Arcs. IMO, we really need to see these Declination Arcs to complete Jayne’s important work on all of his discovered arc directions. And I need to make contact with people who could possibly teach me more important details about Jayne's work/methodologies.

My Nov 16 “outstanding incident” DSLR (inside wheel); outside wheel Natal.

https://ibb.co/3NBmbQy

[SteveS]

Let there be no doubts UK’s Nation has an accurate timed true Radical Chart proven by Jayne’s Arcs/Progression methodology. We can clearly see with par-excellent directed planetary symbolism London was headed for a “fated” malefic “Life Development” event with UK’s declaration of war with Germany on Sept 3 1939, hence, what would be labeled by world history as World War 11, so far UK’s most important “Life Development” in their history, other than when UK was born as a Nation on Dec 25 1066.

UK’s true Radical Chart: Dec 25 1066; 12:00 PM LAT; London, UK; 51N30; 000W13

London’s Solar & Converse Solar Arcs directions calculated to their “Declaration of War” on Germany, 9/3/1939 using on 0,90,180 aspects.

d ASC 04,01 Vir; r Saturn 05,05 Vir (A major “Life Development” angular hit)
d Pluto 12,39 Can; r ASC 13,28 Ari (Another “Life Development angular hit)

Converse Saturn 13,00 Ari; r ASC 13,28 Ari (Another “Life Development angular hit)
Converse ASC 21,23 Scorpio; Pluto 22,06 Aqu (Another Life Development angular hit)

*Note the 4 above angular directions hits, two for standard directions arcs; two for Converse arcs, the mathematical synchronicity for ASC—Saturn—Pluto symbolism, simply astounding!!

d Saturn 25,38 Cap; r Mars 26,43 Cap
Converse Mars 04,38 Vir; r Saturn 05,05 Vir

*Note again we see mathematical synchronicity this time with the symbolism of Mars—Saturn for a direction arc and a Converse arc. This Mars-Saturn symbolism was obviously for bombing “destruction” for London by Germany which was soon to follow UK’s Declaration of War on Germany.

d Mars 17,17 Gem; r Moon 17,22 Pi
Converse Moon 25,17 Lib; r Mars 26,43 Cap

*Again we see stunning par-excellent planetary symbolism and mathematical synchronicity with the same planets with a Solar Arc direction & Converse Solar Arc direction proving Jayne’s 43 years research with his team of astrologers stating:

There is evidence that converse directions may be more fated than direct ones.

Converse Neptune 18,21 Sag; r Moon 17,22 Pi.

Secondary Progression next for UK's Declaration of War.

[Veronica]

I’ve never looked at that chart. My mother was born in London. Just from reading this post I see I have some strong synastry aspects that accurately describe some of my feelings. Very interesting, Thanks Steve. Curious Steve did you catch your synastry with that radical chart too. It was an out of the blue example, but with your Uranus Sun aspect maybe not?

[SteveS]

V wrote:

...but with your Uranus Sun aspect maybe not?

I hear you V. A lot of times I awake in the early morning's hours with astrological things on my mind and I really don't know why they are on my mind. This is what happened with the post about UK's 1066 chart testing Jayne's methodologies. Ever since Trump got elected with a landslide I have been pondering which USA Radical would maybe show good symbolism for this event but I have not yet tested any USA charts with ALL of Jayne's arcs. I was born with a potential Sun (rising) Uranus (culminating) Paran which could explain why I awake with astrological things on my mind--not knowing why they were on my mind. It has been written when we awake there is a brief bridge of time between the conscious---subconscious mind where certain important communications exists between these two different consciousness, maybe where our better intuitions exists. I do so many different charts everyday in my retirement, I have learned through these many years to just flow with these early morning's astrological musings and see where this mystery leads me with my astrological interest. Anyway, I awoke with UK's 1066 chart on my mind and decided to test it with UK's Declaation of War on 9/3/1939 with Jayne's methodology, I was astounded! Other than that I have/had no particular interest in UK except when I wanted to travel to UK and go and experience Glastonbury because of a couple of books I read about Glastonbury being a very sacred site. When there I experienced one of the most profound inner experiences ever for my life.

Just calculated synastry with my chart and UK's radical and noted UK's Uranus partile my Vx, don't really know how to read this synastry.

[Veronica]

That’s pretty cool actually Steve. Very interesting synastry.

In regards to your pondering about which USA Chart…..have you the radical information for the incorporation on the District of Columbia in 1790, July 16 I believe? I have had great results in mundane astrology looking at the dates different counties were incorporated in the USA, and while it’s not a county DC does have a birth chart that might be fruitful for exploration, especially for the people who live there and especially for those doing business.

[Jim Eshelman]

For those interested in the full chart, who may not have it:

Code: Select all

      Long     Lat   Speed    RA     Dec    Azi     Alt      ML     PVL    Ang  
Mo 21Pi42'18"  1S14 +13° 9'   3°39'  0N15  94° 3' + 6°24'   0°27' 353°36'  90% A 
Su 28Sg31' 7"  0S 0 + 1° 1' 281°10' 23S10 180° 3' +32°47'  32°47' 269°56' 100% M 
Me  5Cp25'43"  2S 6 + 1°41' 288°55' 24S32 171°49' +30°57'  30°42' 283°21' 100% Z 
Ve 18Cp32'10"  1S33 + 1°15' 302°51' 21S42 156°33' +30°33'  28°26' 303°59'  50%   
Ma 26Cp59'17"  1S 8 +47'17" 311°30' 19S16 146°53' +29°22'  25°14' 314° 9'  36%   
Ju 26Le11'59"  1N18 - 1'32" 160° 6'  9N50 296°49' -19° 1' 188°50' 158°53'  20%  b
Sa  5Vi 5'22"  2N11 - 0'31" 168°45'  7N14 289° 3' -14° 5' 184°41' 165° 8'  51%   
Ur 16Sg43'21"  0S14 + 3'32" 268°19' 23S47 193°45' +30°52'  30° 8' 248°19'  17%  b
Ne 10Ta26'11"  1S46 - 1' 1"  50°12' 16N42  52°17' -19°47' 192°25'  24°27'  51%   
Pl 22Aq 7' 4" 14S23 + 1' 2" 341°26' 23S29 126°19' + 8°52'   5°16' 349° 3'  71%   
Mc 28Sg33'15" ............. 101°12' 23S 9 180° 0' +32°47' ....... 270° 0'  
As  5Ar25'42" .....................  2N10 .......   0° 0' .......   0° 0'  
Ep  0Ar27'22" ............. 191°12'  0N11 

[Arena]

Arena wrote:

Wow! Yes indeed, stunning symbolism. I had already seen the d. MC to Pluto.

Jayne’s Arc methodology for Trump on day of election most certainly explains to me the manifested landslide victory for Trump. Arena, you recently asked me about transit aspects to Jayne’s arc directions. I noted t. Uranus 00,30 Tau is partile conjunct to Trump’s Converse Solar Arc PL 00,03 Tau and his r MC 00,19 Tau. This transiting combo brings in par-excellent symbolism for him experiencing an unexpected (Uranus) USA voting revolution (Uranus-Pluto), which thrust him back into the White House. This is actually a transiting Uranus Paran which would probably mean this was his most potent direction of em all!

As a side note: On Nov 16 I have an “outstanding incident” Mercury-Jupiter (fortunate communications) DSLR, backed-upped with a partile Sun-Uranus 180 falling partile on my r Jupiter-Node, all angular on my r ASC. I am hoping this brings me back into contact with Scott who has an audio from a seminar many years ago explaining more about Jayne’s work, and the possibility of Scott finding an astrological program that accurately calculates Jayne’s Declination Arcs for Solar Arc, Vtx Arc & ASC Arc directions. In the books I am studying Jayne has said the most important Arcs to research/study for rectification are the Declination Arcs. IMO, we really need to see these Declination Arcs to complete Jayne’s important work on all of his discovered arc directions. And I need to make contact with people who could possibly teach me more important details about Jayne's work/methodologies.

My Nov 16 “outstanding incident” DSLR (inside wheel); outside wheel Natal.

https://ibb.co/3NBmbQy

Very interesting Steve. My GOSH! I have to get these books.

About your side note, I don't have to ask if you noticed, since of course you know this. But I notice that the Mer-Jup angular aspect is aspected by your r. Saturn. And your r. Saturn is a bit brutal since it's quite close to Pluto. The communication might be fortunate, but it might also upset you in some way or your reaction to it may not be as you expected. I don't know, perhaps it's just a new research project for you to tackle.

I also notice another thing and it is a partile T-square formation of Sun-Nep/Uranus. And the return Sun-Uranus on your Nodes is involved into the mix by a wider aspect to this T-square. I don't know if Ebertin is right or wrong about this T-square, but he says it is sudden upsets or excitements nervousness and an inner emotional crisis.

I hope you may learn something new to share with us, even though it may upset you in one way or another.

[SteveS]

Arena, with my life, whenever I see an "outstanding incident" return chart, I only focus on the angular symbolism--the rest of the aspects I consider as just background noise not affecting me significantly. For sure that t Nepune 180 my Sun has been affecting me off/on in significant Neptunian ways for many months with nagging Neptunian household problems, and 2 weeks ago our 1989 Dishwasher quit functioning causing us to buy a new one and the installers are late coming out to install---nagging Neptunian household problems again but it is background noise relative to my immediate environment. I am hoping that parile Sun 180 Uranus falling near my r ASC and on my r Jup/Node will manifest itself with leaning new things with Jayne's methodology---this is by far my main priority with my life at the present moments in my life---not the Dishwasher problem. I have not heard from Scott, my new Jayne contact (Node) from my last commucation with him several days ago. I will report when I see the main manifestation for this "outstanding incident" Mercury-Jupiter Nov 16 DSLR. You may be right in your read that I could be dissapointed when/if I do hear back from Scott during my DSLR.

[SteveS]

OK, I am going to finish Jayne’s systems of methodology for the beginning of WW11 with UK’s Declaration of War on Germany. They are absolutely astounding!!! Since the Solar Arcs including Converse Solar Arcs has already clearly offered par-excellent planetary symbolism for the beginning of WW11, I will only give the rest of the Major Angular “Life Developments” for Secondary Progressions, Asc Arcs, and Vtx (Vertex) Arcs & Transits. Remember there is no way with SF I can calculate Jaynes 3 different systems of Declination Arcs, I suspect they would also offer par-excellent symbolism but Jayne said there would be less angular arc hits, since Declination move much slower than the other major arcs.

Secondary Progressions (SP) & Converse SP:

SP Uranus 27,52 Sag; r Sun 28,10 Sag; r MC 28,1O Sag.
SP Mars 26,53 Tau; SP ASC 25,57 Leo.
Converse SP Mars 26,34 Vir; r Vx 27,00 Vir.

ASC & Converse Arcs:

ASC Arc MC 1O,4O Tau; ASC Arc Sun 10,40 Tau; ASC Arc Vx 09,29 Aqu; r Neptune 10,26 Tau.
Converse ASC Arc Moon 27,26 Vir; r MC 28,10 Sag; r Sun 28,10 Sag; r Vx 27,00 Vir.

Vtx (Vertex) and Vtx Converse Arcs:

Vtx (Vertex) ASC Arc 15,32 Sag; r Uranus 16,41 Sag.
Vtx Converse Arc Neptune 12,31 Cap; r Asc 13,28 Ari

And last but not lease TRANSITS TO NATAL:

A Grand Trine of t Uranus 28,03 Ari t Neptune 28,40 Leo to r MC 28,10 Sag & r Sun 28,10 Sag. Also as a stand along transit in the heavens a partile 90 of Saturn-Pluto (heavy burdens), proving outer planet 0,90,180 aspects are super important for considerations with our planet earth.

I am super impressed with Jayne’s newly discovered Arcs methodology!!! As far as I can tell in my 40 years of studying astrology—very few astrologers became aware of Jayne’s Arc mythology, probably because astrological programs were not developed until the late 80s, early 90s, after the seminar age of astrological teachings in the 70s. I hope and wish Scott & I possibly working together can eventually find someone to develope a specialized program for Declination Arcs which Jayne indicated are more important than his other Arcs.

[SteveS]

One of the main reason I chose the 1066 UK Chart for this Jayne research/study was the fact that WW11 is the worst event known history has encountered with mass deaths/destruction over the duration of WW11, and this war actually began in Europe with UK’s Declaration of War on Germany, two main Nations in Europe. We can clearly see par-excellent planetary symbolism of several hits to and from these chart angles beginning WW11 on 9/3/1939. Later, I want to test Jayne’s arc methods with a couple of USA charts to see if can see clear confirmation with Jayne’s arc methods for a true Radical Chart. In fact, I would like to test all of the different supposed USA charts with main “Life Development” events in USA history. I ask myself the question: Did Jayne present a USA chart he thought was a true Radical?

[SteveS]

Jim wrote:

It's misleading to think of these as two separate contacts (and there is nothing surprising that they are synchronous). Because Sun's speed is reasonably consistent, converse solar arcs will always be mirrors of the direct solar arcs (within small variations of arc). This is simply one aspect: directed MC conjunct natal Pluto 38'. (How big the difference can get depends on exactly when in the year one is born.) That isn't true of Vertex arc, so it does make sense to check those separately. (However, the Moon-Jupiter example you gave is pretty wide.)

Just read this post by you Jim—somehow I missed it. Thank you so much for your astronomical knowledge—it helps me so much. I am so impressed with Jayne’s Arcs methodology, I cannot image he did not have his own reliable tested USA Radical Chart with his superb methodology. Combine this with the fact he wrote many years of mundane columns for Dell Astrology Magazine, I will give it my best effort to see if I can find Jayne’s possible Radical Chart for the USA.

[Veronica]

One of the main reason I chose the 1066 UK Chart for this Jayne research/study was the fact that WW11 is the worst event known history has encountered with mass deaths/destruction over the duration of WW11, and this war actually began in Europe with UK’s Declaration of War on Germany, two main Nations in Europe. We can clearly see par-excellent planetary symbolism of several hits to and from these chart angles beginning WW11 on 9/3/1939. Later, I want to test Jayne’s arc methods with a couple of USA charts to see if can see clear confirmation with Jayne’s arc methods for a true Radical Chart. In fact, I would like to test all of the different supposed USA charts with main “Life Development” events in USA history. I ask myself the question: Did Jayne present a USA chart he thought was a true Radical?

Very interesting Steve. I am curious about WWI and how the chart for the declaration of that war on July 28, 1914 shows? I was taught that the events of that WW directly led to the rise of the conditions that brought WWII to manifest.

[SteveS]

V wrote:

I am curious about WWI and how the chart for the declaration of that war on July 28, 1914 shows? I was taught that the events of that WW directly led to the rise of the conditions that brought WWII to manifest.

Indeed V, it was a terrible trench warfare! I have got a-lot of household situations to handle today, but later I will defintely read up on WW1 and see if I can determine a clear location for "Declarations of Wars" with Nations.

[SteveS]

Continuing my research into Charles Jayne prediction methods, the following link explains to me the most important arc method by Jayne. Unfortunately I cannot thoroughly research because as far as I know there is no astrological program that accurately calculates “Declination Arcs.

https://www.uraniatrust.org/astrology/d ... orecasting

[Jim Eshelman]

Yes, we seem to have no way to do this. I thought I'd figured out a way to fool Solar Fire into doing it, but I was wrong.

[alinda]

Declination arc is calculated by determining the absolute value of the difference between the declination of the natal and the progressed Suns.

I'm probably oversimplifying, but this doesn't seem like it would be too hard calculate with a python script. If it would be helpful, I'd be happy to take a stab at it.

[ODdOnLifeItself]

Hello Steve,

(Re: Declination Arcs)

So, you are taking the "travel" of the Sun's progressed declination, since birth, and using that to direct the chart's positions directly by longitude?

If so, on Nov 28, 2023; when my dear brother died, the declination arc of Neptune had moved around to oppose my natal Mars (0° 1' orb).

[SteveS]

alinda wrote:

I'm probably oversimplifying, but this doesn't seem like it would be too hard calculate with a python script. If it would be helpful, I'd be happy to take a stab at it.

Stab away alinda. If it helps, this is the only example I have offered by a student (Bill Merriman) of Charles Jayne:

The following analysis of President Nixon's declination arc was presented at UAC 1995. He was born on January 9,1913 at 9:35 PM PST in Whittier, Ca. This places Saturn at 27 Taurus 29, his Midheaven at 16 Gemini 02, and his Pluto at 28 Gemini 39. During the 1960 election, his solar declination arc (SDA) MC was conjunct his Pluto. During Watergate, the addition of his SDA to his 9th-house Saturn brought the planet to his MC.

alinda, Bill was using tropical positions but you have the birth data here which can be computed with Sidereal positions if needed for your python script endeavors. Thanks for your feedback alinda.

[SteveS]

ODdOn wrote:

So, you are taking the "travel" of the Sun's progressed declination, since birth, and using that to direct the chart's positions directly by longitude?

If I understand correctly---Yes ODdOn. Jayne said Declinations Arcs are more important than the other Arcs because their arc movement was much slower. By what I understand, Declination Arcs were Jayne’s go to arcs for rectifying charts. There are 3 different Declination Arcs Jayne used:
1: Solar Arc Declination
2: ASC Arc Declination
3: Vertex Arc Declination
I have been pushing hard to establish contact with other astrologers who were familiar with Jayne’s Arc methodology, but one big problem—they have died. I have sent Bill Merriman an e-mail---awaiting his reply.

[SteveS]

I established contact with Bill Meridian and asked him which timed USA Chart Jayne was using for his mundane work. His response:

He used 3:
The Sibley Chart
The surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown chart
The Articles of Confederation.
For most countries, there is more than 1 chart.

I asked Bill a couple of follow-up questions:
1: Would you happen to have any audio or video teachings seminars you have done on Jayne’s work for sale:
2: Do you know of any reliable software programs which calculates Jayne’s “Declination Arcs” for charts?
Any info you can provide I would really appreciate.

[SteveS]

Jayne’s greatest accomplishments are largely unknown. He developed a working system of mundane astrology by the early 1940s. The techniques of ascendant, vertex, and declination arcs were developed to describe events that could not be explained by known predictive techniques. Bill Meridian

I heard back from Bill and he said there is no public software which calculates “Declinations Arcs”, they have to be done by hand along with a speculum. Bill gave me a couple of leads which may help my learning curve with Jayne’s methodology, but again the few astrologers who were adept with Jayne’s methodologies are either in their 70s/80s or have already passed away. You can include me at 77 as a Rookie learning Jayne’s material .

I do know this for myself studying astrology for 40 years, fwiw: You should be able to take Trump’s Natal or any other future CEO's Natal for the USA, and determine with Jayne’s forecasting methodologies along with SSRs/SMA, easily be able to get reliable reads on USA affairs since it appears there is no one USA Radical Chart to completely rely upon. As goes the Prez astrological cycles so goes the USA cycles . I hopefully expect to slowly be learning more refined details about Jayne's astrological methodologies.

[alinda]

To see if I understand this...

• We need to get the natal and progressed sun declinations.

• set the max solar declination (about ±23.44°?)

• calculate the declination arc as: D = |max - natal| + |progressed - max|

• this can then be added and deducted to the position of the natal planets

I admit I don't fully understand the astrology behind this, but the implementation doesn't seem too complicated, I don't see why it would need to be done by hand.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

Yes, alinda, I believe that is correct. However, you only need to worry about the max declinations if the sun has to cross over one of the solstice points in its progressions. So, let's say the sun was at 0º Aries tropical at the time of birth. If you progressed it forward 30 days to represent 30 years, then it would be at approximately 30º Aries and the declination arc would be approximately 11º45'. But, let's say the sun was at 20º Gemini (tropical) instead. That would be approximately 22º50'N of declination at the starting time. To progress it forward 30 days, that would put it at approximately 20º Cancer, which would have a declination of roughly 22º20'N. So in that case, to get the total amount of declination arc it covered, you would need to factor in the max declination you mentioned of 23º27', which would provide a total declination arc of 1º34'.

So it's not too hard, but there is a bit of calculation involved if one of the solstice points gets crossed.

Also, Jayne had some other instructions regarding how to handle planets that are out of bounds. I need to re-read that part, but he seemed to be saying if a planet is beyond 23º27', then you take whatever its declination is (say the moon for example at 27º declination). You treat it as if it has already reached its maximum, even if it is still increasing in declination in the ephemeris. (i.e. how the moon is going up to 28º declination right now). You would then add or subtract your solar declination arc from whatever declination is present at birth. So in this example, if my progressed declination arc were 1º34', I would have to subtract that from the 27ºN of declination of the moon, bringing it down to 25º26'N, rather than taking it up to 28ºN first, and then continuing the arc from there.

I don't know how exactly Jayne handled this in situations where the planet could go out of bounds, but was still within bounds as of the time of the natal. So let say the moon was at 20º declination in the natal, but could go out of bounds to a declination of 28º. I'm not sure if he would just progress it only up to 23º27' and then begin to go the opposite direction, or if he would do something else.

I need to see more examples of his calculations.

[Edit: I'm also not sure how he dealt with retrograde planets.]

[Jim Eshelman]

Sun's maximum declination is the obliquity of the ecliptic at birth. (Technically, at progressed date, but it doesn't move fast enough for that to be an issue.) Thus, for your birth, Alinda, it's 23°26'24".

Crossing maximum/minimum declination is the same as crossing Tropical 0°00' Cancer or Capricorn (or the Sidereal longitude square the vernal point).

[alinda]

THanks, I made a function based off the formula from, Astronomical Algorithms by Jean Meeus to get the mean mean obliquity of the ecliptic.

Code: Select all

ε = 23°26'21". 448 - 46”.8150r - 0". 00059T^2 + 0".001813T ^3 

For my birth time I get:

Code: Select all

Maximum Declination (±ε): +23°26'29.96", -23°26'29.96"

That's close but not quite what you have Jim. I guess I have a start,

[Jim Eshelman]

I suspect a few seconds of difference will make no difference except precisely at the solstices (if there).

[SteveS]

I am very curious Alinda, Jim, Rings: Since you all know what you are doing with hand calculations, app how long would it take to do Trump’s 3 “Declination Arcs” for the rest of his term (to and from angles hits and lights)? 1: Solar Arcs; 2: ASC Arcs; 3 Vx Arcs. Even with you guys who know how to calculate by hand, this seems like a time consuming task?

[SteveS]

Hey Guys/Dolls (you mathematical whiz kids ), I want to know this: Will Trump experience in his last term with any 6 of his Directional Arcs malefic action with his r 180 Saturn-Vx?

[SteveS]

IMO, we need many different examples form Jayne’s hand for Declination Arcs to know for sure exactly how he was calculating em. So far, I can’t find a source for Jayne’s Declination Arc examples.

[Veronica]

Steve, I don’t know if you have ever tried using an AI like “Bing”, but maybe AI could be used to do these calculations? AI is used quite frequently in the higher maths and sciences for tabulation of formulas and running simulations. I don’t see why it couldn’t be utilized to calculate these equations for you. Getting the initial data information and parameters written out might be challenging but once it is written then it should effectively run for any query.

[SteveS]

That is a good V. Rings is in the process of studying Jayne's two books and like me she is somewhat confused with exactly how Jayne was calculating Declination Arcs. I will have to be taught how to do em if we can ever figure out exactly how Jayne was doing em. Thanks for the feedback and have a great Thanksgiving with your family.

[SteveS]

Rings is in the process of studying Jayne’s books trying to figure out some issues with Declination Arcs. Here is Rings last PM to me:

Ok, this might take me a little longer than I expected. I see there are a few things I need to figure out. So it will probably take me the weekend to work through it, because I need to read more of Jayne's book to understand what to do. Some of the issues include:
Trump has two planets that are out of bounds, Mercury and Pluto. So I need to see more specifically how to handle them.
His Neptune is retrograde. So I need to see how Jayne wants us to handle that.
His Jupiter is stationary. So I need to see how Jayne wants to handle that situation.
Does Jayne want us to use both direct AND converse directions for this?
Does he also want us to check for parallel declinations and contra-parallel declinations such as when Trump's progressed sun reaches declination +23.183º which would be opposite his natal moon at -23.183º? Or when the progressed sun reaches the declination of natal Uranus at +22.933º declination? The difference in this last example is Uranus is INCREASING in declination, but for the sun to come back around to that point (which would be equivalent to tropical Cancer 11º32'), it would be DECREASING in declination, even though it would still have a positive (north) declination.
How to handle the ascendant. I THINK he wants us to calculate the progressed MC and then find the ascendant that coincides with it, and that will be the progressed ascendant, but I'm not sure.
Once all of these difficulties are sorted out, then it would be much easier for alinda to program a script, because then you know what you're actually trying to program.

I asked Rings if he wanted me to e-mail Bill Meridian asking him any specific questions and he said:

I would ask:
How exactly is the progressed declination arc for Nixon's midheaven hitting Pluto in 1960?
Is this using converse or direct arcs?
What was the precise declination arc you calculated for this time in the 1960 election?

I e-mailed these questions to Bill 4 days ago and have not heard back from him? I think I will drop Bill another e-mail and tell him about this thread, maybe asking him to join in to help us as much as he can since he worked directly with Charles Jayne.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

I just learned that SolarFire has been able to do ALL of the Jayne calculations, including declination arcs and the prenatal chart, since version 6.

Unfortunately, I don't have SolarFire, so I'm not able to be much help to Steve. But maybe one of you who has SolarFire could give him some assistance.

On page 264 of the SolarFire 9 user manual, it talks specifically about Jayne and how to do all of his directions in Solar Fire 9 using the Astrologer's Assistant. To do the declination arcs, I'm assuming you would have to select the solar arc and then some type of option under "direction type" to change it from longitude to declination. Supposedly, it can display all this information in the graphic ephemeris too, but I have no idea how that works. The prenatal charts are described on pages 476-482.

Note, on page 508 under "Dynamic Reports" and "Graphic Ephemeris", it explicitly says it can do declination directions.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

Note, on page 508 under "Dynamic Reports" and "Graphic Ephemeris", it explicitly says it can do declination directions.

, great work Rings! On page 508 the manual states:

Dynamic Report: Added Jayne's directions of declination. Added arc multipliers for directions.

This means to me I should be able to do Jayne’s “multipliers” for directions, which if I understand from his book he says is important. I am on the road for Thanksgiving—when I get back to SF 9 I will check this Dynamic Report function out and see if I can calculate Trump’s declination arcs for his term as Prez. Thank you so much Rings .

[Jim Eshelman]

I haven't been able to find this yet in SF 8. You said it's there since v6 and then quoted the manual in v9 saying these were added.

I find several entries in the User Guide talking about the Jayne direction systems, mentioning only solar arc, Vertex arc, and Ascendant arc (direct and converse).

There IS one interesting sentence under "Generating Dynamic Report":

Solar Arc. - This is the most commonly used method. Chart point longitudes are directed by the secondary progressed arc in longitude, and chart point declinations are directed by the secondary progressed arc in declination.

[Jim Eshelman]

So... I'm not sure if this is the result wanted (I think it probably isn't the same theory), but here's what I found we can do in SF: Run a dynamic report, pick Directions to Radix, set Directions to Solar Arc, check the "Parallels of Decl" box, and set Aspect Selection to None (so you don 't get all the longitudinal solar arc aspects). Listing only exact hits, I get the following list for my life since 1975 (I stipped out the contraparallels since yu haven't mentioned them in this discussion):

Sa Asc Pll Na Sun Feb 22 1977 2:44a CST
Sa Asc Pll Na Nep Dec 8 1982 3:50p CST
Sa Nep Pll Na Mer Nov 11 1983 10:38p CST
Sa Mer Pll Na Mer Dec 19 1984 10:28a CST
Sa Sun Pll Na Mer May 3 1990 7:32p CST
Sa Mar Pll Na Sat Jun 15 1990 5:43p CST
Sa Ven Pll Na Sat Dec 3 1992 1:10p CST
Sa Asc Pll Na Sat Apr 29 1999 7:32p CST
Sa Mar Pll Na Nep Dec 28 2011 1:45a CST
Sa Mer Pll Na Sat Jun 8 2013 12:31p CST
Sa Sat Pll Na Mer Jun 8 2013 12:31p CST
Sa Ven Pll Na Nep Jun 4 2018 1:19a CST

[SteveS]

Thanks so much Jim, I think you figured it out. In about 5 min I will hook-up with tech support and get back to you and Rings for confirmation.

[SteveS]

OK Rings, If Jim is correct with his thinking for Jayne’s “Declination Arcs” with SF and so far I think Jim is correct, we now can calculate ALL of Jayne’s “Declination Arcs” with Solar Fire. I am elated, but I have a r Me/Nep all over my next Dec 1 SLR ASC which makes me suspect we may not have figured out how to do ALL of Jayne’s “Declination Arcs” with Solar Fire. I have calculated all of Trump’s “Declination Arc” hits with lights and angles, and when I finish my Thanksgiving road trip I will list Trump’s next 11 years of ALL his “Declination Arcs” for you to hand check. Hopefully I/we want run into any confusion and will be able to confirm for sure. SF Tech support did not know about Jim’s SF method for calculating “Declination Arcs”, and were reading from a script how to see/calculate “Declination Arcs” using a Graphic Ephemeris, which I have never used before. It will take me some time to check and see if they match Jim’s method. I am very encouraged but like I said I have a dose of Me-Nep coming-up so I will reserve final judgement.

[RingsOfSaturn22]

I haven't been able to find this yet in SF 8. You said it's there since v6 and then quoted the manual in v9 saying these were added.

On the description page for Solar Fire 6, under the Declination section, 3rd bullet point, it says:

Dynamic Hitlists in Declination (or latitude) can show transiting, progressed and -- new in Solar Fire 6 -- solar arc and other directed hits in both declination and latitude (as advocated by Charles Jayne)

I have no idea what any of that means in terms of set up for the program, but it seems that was when they added it, and perhaps they just further updated it in version 9?

It seems that you may have figured out the set up, though. Thanks. I'm still trying to determine if Jayne wanted us to use contra-parallels for the declination arcs. But it's good to know that the program can do them!

I have calculated all of Trump’s “Declination Arc” hits with lights and angles, and when I finish my Thanksgiving road trip I will list Trump’s next 11 years of ALL his “Declination Arcs” for you to hand check.

I'll be looking out for it. Could you also run Nixon's declination arcs for 1960? I want to see if it's coming up with that progressed Pluto to the natal MC that Bill Meridian mentioned...

[RingsOfSaturn22]

SF Tech support did not know about Jim’s SF method for calculating “Declination Arcs”, and were reading from a script how to see/calculate “Declination Arcs” using a Graphic Ephemeris, which I have never used before.

Typical customer support these days, haha. They were probably just reading the same page from the manual I posted. I get the sense they probably never heard of a progressed declination arc before, haha.

I don't know who you got your version of SolarFire through, but maybe contact Hank Friedman. He might better know how to do this. I was possibly looking into getting Solar Fire from him.

[Jim Eshelman]

Could you also run Nixon's declination arcs for 1960? I want to see if it's coming up with that progressed Pluto to the natal MC that Bill Meridian mentioned...

Do you now what birth time was used? For many years, we had a reported time of 9:30 until - while he was president - the birth certificate was found with 9:35.

In any case, none of these aspects for Nixon's chart in 1960-61. For a wider range, I get:

Sa Sun Pll Na Ven Dec 24 1952
Sa Jup Pll Na Ven Apr 7 1956
Sa Plu Pll Na Sat Jan 29 1957
Sa Mer Pll Na Ven May 18 1957
Sa Plu Pll Na Plu Dec 1 1957
Sa Mar Pll Na Ven May 12 1958
Sa Sat Pll Na Asc Jul 1 1958
Sa Ven Pll Na Asc Jan 1 1969
Sa Asc Pll Na Ven Jan 1 1969

I don't really think this is the way to get Jayne's system. I think the sentence in the SF documentation was written by someone who didn't understand Jayne's system. This approach doesn't have the "rounding the corner" condition. But maybe I'm wrong and it really is.

[SteveS]

Rings wrote:

I don't know who you got your version of SolarFire through, but maybe contact Hank Friedman. He might better know how to do this. I was possibly looking into getting Solar Fire from him.

I got my version from Astrolab. For sure Rings I want to purchase SF for you because of all your help, and I need your mind to possibly help me see other important astrological issues with SF , and the real possibility if we indeed do figure out how to implement Jayne’s entire forecasting system, you will play an important role for my astrological learnings. My main interest is for my individual astrological learnings and you have convinced me you can teach me important astrological things. By what I can see/understand there is no astrologer on today's astrological circuit teaching Jayne's Arc methods, which he considered the most important forecasting methods in astrology. If I was yonger and became convinced I knew for sure I explicitly understood Jayne's methods go on the astrological circuit and teach it to ALL of the astrological world.
Rings wrote:

Typical customer support these days, haha. They were probably just reading the same page from the manual I posted. I get the sense they probably never heard of a progressed declination arc before, haha.

Exactly Rings !!!
Rings, because of the way you feel with your inner most feelings about mundane things happening, you will find this interesting which I just discovered from another Jayne book:

Since we are now on the 5th Subrace of the 5th Root Race, we are now in the 33rd Subrace! And like the individual at the Epoch of Sigma, our race is confronted with possibility of the destruction of our planet. For the current crisis is more severe than was the case in the last days of Atlantis. My authority for this comes from the letters of Helena Roerich through whom the Agni Yoga teachings of the Lord Morya came.

Jayne also stated:

During the earlier second one, investigated in some depth by Cyril Fagan, the stars had been paramount and the fixed or sidereal zodiac was central. In the third phase the moving, or tropical, zodiac of the seasons came to the fore except in Asia.

No doubt Jayne had a brilliant astrological/astronomical mind! The problem we have no access to any of his astrological research with examples of some of the charts his team analyzied.

[SteveS]

OK, I am getting par-excellent hits with Jayne’s ‘once in a lifetime’ “Life Developments" Jayne's Arc calculations in SF for Trump. Note below his SF “Declination Arc” parallel of Saturn to his r Vx on Jan 12 2021!!! Obviously what happen to Trump on Jan 6 2021 with the riots in DC over him losing the 2020 Election. Va stands for Jayne’s Vertical Arcs (Vtx). Judge for yourself with Va parallel (Pll) of Saturn to his r Moon on June 9 2034, and his co-parallel (Cpl) of Saturn to his r Sun on Aug 11 2035. Between June 2034 –Aug 2035 will be a “once in a lifetime” very vulnerable time period for Trump’s life, or maybe for the USA depending on other mundane charts, IMO.

Sat (4) Pll Vx (5) (X) Va-Na Jan 12 2021 07:46:05 am EST 74.583 -21°30' -21°30'
Sat (4) Pll Mon (4) (X) Va-Na Jun 9 2034 10:35:05 am EST 87.988 -23°11' -23°11'
Sat (4) Cpl Sun (10) (X) Va-Na Aug 11 2035 03:49:54 am EST 89.159 -23°15' +23°15'

Folks, I think we now have a reliable program (SF) for calculating all of Jayne's Lifetime Arc hits (1 minute of time for calculations). We have some tweaking to do: Converse for his 3 Declination Arcs for Solar Arcs, ASC Arcs, & Vertex Arcs? Thanks again Rings and Jim for the important feedback with this topic thread.

[SteveS]

Rings, I have calculated Nixon’s Solar Declination Arcs {SDA) with SF and there is no match to Bill Meridian’s SDAs to Nixon’s Natal in 1960 for the election or for 1974 Watergate. I suspect Meridian’s SDAs for Nixon since your hand calculations don’t match Meridian as well.

I have spot checked Trump’s life with all of his SF Declination’s Arcs since the 2016 election and see what appears to be par-excellent symbolism for him winning the 2016 election and for his Jan 6, 2021 debacle with the riots in DC. What we need are Declination Arc examples from Jayne’s work to see if SF calculations match Jayne’s examples, but I can’t find any of Jayne’s examples. I will keep seeking for some original Jayne examples.

Here are Trump’s Solar Fire Solar Declination Arc (SDAs) Hits for 2016 when he won Prez. If you know how to hand calculate, I would appreciate if you could check to see if yours matches Solar Fire, Thanks

DYNAMIC REPORT:
Sun (12) Pll Asc (1) (X) Sa-Na Jul 9 2016 07:41:59 pm EDT 70.072 +11°30' +11°30'
Mon (6) Cpl Asc (1) (X) Sa-Na Sep 18 2016 10:18:50 pm EDT 70.267 -11°30' +11°30'
Node (12)Pll Asc (1) (X)Sa-Na Nov 26 2016 05:12:07 pm EST 70.455 +11°30' +11°30'

[SteveS]

Charles Jayne from his book "The Best of Charles Jayne" on the chapter for "Declinations Arcs":

Solar declination arc may be used even when the time of birth is inaccurate, although if the Sun’s natal declination or directed declination is very high, an appreciable error will creep in. The solar declination arc’s length is not affected by errors in the time of birth, making declination arcs extremely valuable in timing. If the chart has been rectified or if the time of birth is probably accurate, one may also use the Ascendant and vertical declination arcs. They are most stable when the Ascendant or Vertex is moving slowly---in the northern hemisphere from Cancer to Sagittarius. There are fewer aspects by declination than by longitude but they can be very important. It is also possible to use converse Declination Solar, Ascendant, and Vertical arc directions, they may be more fated than the direct ones.

I have one example of Solar Declination Arc (SDA) Jayne offers in his book “The Best of Charles Jayne.” Jayne writes: “There is one other thing that can be done with solar declination arc. It can be used to move Midheaven”.

On page 113 Jayne discusses:

In September 1970 I had an ecliptic parallel of Midheaven to Moon. In that month I took an office in New York City. I was receiving considerable publicity as I was lecturing six days a week for several months. I co-sponsored a large international convention at New York University in Jan 1970.

Jayne contributes his Solar Declination Arc (SDA) of Midheaven-Moon to this peak “lecturing”-speaking engagements in his lifetime. He states his Natal Midheaven 27 Pisces 09 (Tropical). Solar Fire computes his Tropical Midheaven 28 Pisces 08. *** Solar Fire 9.017 computes his exact MC—Moon SDA for Sept 1971 located to New York, one year later than Jayne’s calculation for this once in a lifetime MC-Moon SDA hit. I don't know for sure how Jayne was calculating his "Declination Arcs". For now, I am assuming Solar Fire is accurately calculating Jayne’s "Declination Arcs" in light of the above differences with Jayne’s MC.

Note: also at this same time in Jayne’s life he had an exact SDA Me co-parallel Pl Sept 15 1970, par-excellent symbolism for Jayne’s lifetime peak of “lecturing” engagements.

Jayne’s birth data:
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jayne,_Charles

[SteveS]

After more study with Charles Jayne books, I can understand better he was truly a great astrologer (basically unknown) for his time. He would have been a greater astrologer if he understood the mundane & Solunar truths of Fagan/Bradley Sidereal Zodiac. Jayne’s work with Declination Aspects are truly remarkable, IMO. For the first time in my life I understand why my generation of Baby Boomers identified themselves with the Declination Aspect of Uranus-Pluto at their births, which eventually ushered in The Stunning Revolution of, Drugs, Sex & particularly Rock & Roll music with the Uranus-Pluto conjunction of the late 60s, it’s a mundane astrological Revelation to my mind. I only wish I had all of Jayne’s mundane astrological work to finish my life for study, but realize it is now lost to present and future serious astrologers. What little I understand with Jayne’s astrological work has helped me to understand my Creator a lot more with my Natal Chart.

[Arena]

The Uranus-Pluto aspect sure is a rebellious vibe.

[SteveS]

Arena wrote:

The Uranus-Pluto aspect sure is a rebellious vibe.

Indeed Arena!
I absolutely love to discover and learn new astrological techniques which I know only in an inner knowing way relates to my life/natal as a whole by studying Astrological Symbolism for 40 years. Here is the core of what I have learned from Jayne’s writings on Natal Declination Aspects relative to my Natal & Life. He devoted a third of his book “The Best of Charles Jayne” to Declination Aspects, along with Declinations Arcs.
First, Jayne would have started with my partile Sun (10H) partile 90 my Uranus (8H) with key word symbolism for these 2 Houses. He would have immediately known this was my most important Natal Signature, as most branches of astrology knows/teaches. Then Jayne would have looked at any possible Declination Aspects with my Sun & Uranus and noticed a huge BINGO with Natal Declination Aspects. Most Natals do not reflect important Declination aspects unless they are tied in with the natal angles or lights—per Jayne’s teachings. Here are my Declination Aspects all tied in with my two lights and vertex:
Moon -23,06; Uranus + 23,30 (a counter parallel). (lots of excitement & life changes).
Moon -23,06; Pluto + 23,09 (counter parallel) (intense emotionally).
Uranus + 23,30; Pluto + 23,09 (parallel) (A Stunning Revolutionary aspect involving huge life transformations).
Vertex + 23,03 (a life of experiences pertaining to all kinds of heavily felt “fated” (Vertex) events involving hard core symbolism from Moon—Uranus--Pluto).
This Declination example from my Natal nails my life in so many ways and demonstrates why Jayne repeatedly stated the “vital importance” for Declinations of parallels & counter parallels at times with a natal chart. Jayne said that Declination aspects coming from near higher & lower maximum declinations were much more important, they were similar to ecliptic stations because of their very slow movement.

[Arena]

Did Jayne use WSH system? Does he state which system in his books? Traditionally whole sign houses were used.
If he did, your houses would not be as you state in the post.

Sidereal WSH Sun in 12th sign from ASC or 11th from EP if you let the MC mark the 10th sign. Uranus therefore in the 9th from ASC or 8th from EP.

Tropical shifts your Sun into the same sign as the MC, so 10th if you use the MC to mark the 10th house/sign... but it is in the 11th sign from ASC which puts Uranus into the 8th from ASC, but 7th sign IF the MC marks the 10th. However, those who use the tropical zodiac would want to explore that MC on the border.