Some questions (sidereal beginner)

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Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by -mindscapes- » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:45 am

First of all, nice to meet you all.

I didn't find a new member room to say hi so litlle introduction here. I'm interested in astrology since i was young, mainly because of some peculiar things in my life that made me certain of the validity of the art (born same day as my father and needless to say we have a lot in common, had years when every romantic partner or interest i had was in the same sign, etc etc).

In the last years i had to face some difficult transits and my first saturn return, and im also right now in a pretty difficult time of my life. This renewed my interest in astrology and i'm trying to dive deeper into it all. Enter my discovery of the sidereal zodiac, which from the first i heard about it makes much more sense than using tropical. It was suggested to me to take a look at vedic astrology because i was told western sidereal is pretty new ansd niche and was instead refined for millennia. However, as im more familiar with tropical astrology and i don't feel really compelled to start from 0 and learn a whole new system (and i have found that even using tropical western astrology is pretty accurate, even if not always), i was directed here as a place to learn more about sidereal.

Aniway, it turns out using the vedic system of deriving the chart, from a leo with a strong scorpio rising (pluto in 12th) and with a very dominant stellium/conjunction of moon, saturn, uranus and neptune in 2nd sag, i result instead cancer with libra rising, with the stellium migrating to the third house (and in fact reading interpretation for the planets in third i feel i can relate).
Obviusly being the stellium such a dominant aggregate in my chart, the shift to another house, not to mention the sun and rising sign changing, the flavour of the entire chart change in a not so subtle manner.

Now for the questions.

Which house system do you use?
Also are there any notable differences in chart interpretation compared to tropical?
Any important thread here a beginner should read? I'm particularly interested in my personal chart reading and transits delineation.

Thanks

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:21 am

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:45 am
I didn't find a new member room to say hi so litlle introduction here.
Yeah, this isn't a social site so we don't have that kind of thing, although people here do chat a lot. We have Club Aldebaran for off-topic chat and Many Things for on topic chat.
It was suggested to me to take a look at vedic astrology because i was told western sidereal is pretty new ansd niche and was instead refined for millennia.
Yeah. It's not "western sidereal astrology." Its Sidereal astrology, note the capitalization, and it originated in ancient (not Hellanic) Egypt and Babylonia, before astrology was passed along to the Indian continent by conquering Persians, eventually becoming the Indian/Hindu/Vedic forms of astrology.
Which house system do you use?
Campanus, but we mostly don't use house systems at all. None of this Pluto in the 12th and Neptune in the 2nd stuff. The mere fact there are so very many house systems in use is a clue to the value of house systems. We do use how close a planet is to the angles, but that works better in mundane charts based in the prime vertical rather than the zodiac.
Also are there any notable differences in chart interpretation compared to tropical?
Define notable. An aspect is an aspect no matter what zodiac you choose. The boundaries of the zodiac signs are the main difference, and its important to note the signs are not just off-set by one. Our sign delineations are different too because they're based on thousands of years of observation, and don't just date from the middle ages.
Any important thread here a beginner should read? I'm particularly interested in my personal chart reading and transits delineation.
Start with the Natal Astrology section, the Constellations , viewforum.php?f=15]Angularity, Aspects. The posts stickied to the top of each section are the ones that mostly cover the basics. You'll certainly want to read the posts stickied to the top of the Misc. on Natal Astrology section which explain the structure and basics of reading charts. Transits are in their own section under Transits and Progressions, and the basics are covered in the stickies at the top of the Transits forum.
You can always ask questions. If you can't decide where to post, post in Many Things under the Discussion section.

This is Jim Eschelman's research site, so you'll see a lot of things like "Unvetted Sun & Moon Constellation Stuff." Jim is nice enough to share with the rest of us, and allow us to do our own research, sometimes with help :)

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:35 am

Oh, P.S. Check out Solunars.org for more information on the Sidereal zodiac.

Indian/Hindu/Vedic astrologers only started styling themselves "sidereal" in the last 30 to 40 years because Sidereal astrology started getting the reputation of astrology that actually works and they said OH HEY we're sidereal too and started trying to call us "western sidereal." That's really confused a lot of people.

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:40 am

Mindscapes, welcome to Solunars.

Regarding your question about "differences" in interpretation approach, this thread summarizes basic natal interpretation priorities:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19

This thread is a root-level examination of the primary components of astrology:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1772

Though you can find this information in various places, here are summaries of how we tend to look at the most important sign placements and aspect interpretations (respectively):
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1909
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2089

Here is a summary "Points of Agreement" - places where Sidereal astrologers more likely than not concur:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2259
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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by -mindscapes- » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 pm

Campanus, but we mostly don't use house systems at all. None of this Pluto in the 12th and Neptune in the 2nd stuff. The mere fact there are so very many house systems in use is a clue to the value of house systems. We do use how close a planet is to the angles, but that works better in mundane charts based in the prime vertical rather than the zodiac.
Interesting. What do you mean with mundane charts based on the vertical?
What is the method you use to calculate a chart? Are there sidereal ephemeris? An easy to use calculator to start? I suppose what i mean is i would like an easy way to see my chart in the way you all use here to start giving a look at it. As i said i'm an interested beginner and mostly use calculators, then i read articles on the placements and aspects to understand it. I would like some directions to do the same with my sidereal chart. However i already know that more or less my chart is dominated by the moon saturn uranus 1 degree stellium conjunction, with also neptune 10 degree aparts, opposite venus. I also know they should all be in sagittarius, or with some house system with neptune in capricorn. I'm trying to understand what area of life is most governed by this configuration and as of now in my research i came to the conclusion is a mixture of what in tropical are considered the 2nd and 3rd house. I have also to say that however that calculating my transits with the usual tropical method, this year they were pretty spot on in predicting various occurrences in my life, so there must be some merit in it, even if i understand it's a fabrication like the daylight saving times in a way.

Define notable.
Notable as the fact that for example in vedic the aspects considered valid are different in respect to standard tropical astrology, for example they don't give much care to squares. And there is a whole different method of chart interpretation, the moon is almost on par with the sun etc etc. So i was wondering if the astrology discussed here put emphasis on the same things as tropical astrology or if it's different also in the method of interpretation, if it consider some aspects more important than others etc etc. For example the fact you say you don't use an house system seems a notable difference. How do you focalize in which area of experience a particular configuration act?
Mindscapes, welcome to Solunars.
Thanks, will give a look to threads!

EDIT: found this that answered my question about houses http://cura.free.fr/docum/02fagan.html . also found out i have a cyril fagan book in my files, will start reading it. I took a look at the chart interpretation file here and some delineations are spot on. With some i don't particularly agree but maybe it's due to the interaction of all the chart. Should i give more emphasis on the foreground planet or at the stellium? I have pluto and jupiter 10 degrees near the ascendant and descendant respectively. The stellium is in 4 th house but is a conjunction of 4 planets so it has also a lot of aspects.

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:09 pm

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 pm
We do use how close a planet is to the angles, but that works better in mundane charts based in the prime vertical rather than the zodiac.
Interesting. What do you mean with mundane charts based on the vertical?
The prime vertical is a circle that rises due east, passes directly overhead, sets due west, and passes directly beneath. This circle is always at right angles to the meridian circle, on which MC/IC are based, and the horizon circle, on which Asc/Dsc are based. If you're familiar with the Vertex-Antivertex, these are formed where the ecliptic intersects the prime vertical.

Campanus houses are based on equal 30° divisions of the prime vertical. (Where the ecliptic crosses these dividing lines mark the house circles. The house cusps marked on a horoscope don't actually show the dividing lines between houses because houses are actual three-dimensional "orange-slices" of the celestial sphere. Planets not exactly on the ecliptic (planets with celestial latitude that is not 0N00) may fall in a different Campanus house than what the house cusp suggests, and one can only really tell where it is by a form of chart called a mundoscope that shows planets along the prime vertical instead of ecliptically.

For example, my Pluto is 2°06' Leo and my Campanus 12th cusp is 0°59'. It looks like Pluto is 1°07' below the 12th cusp, right? Except my Pluto has celestial latitude 9N55, i.e., is 9°55' north of the ecliptic. On careful calculation, my Pluto is actually 1°41' above the 12th cusp.

Jupiter's remark above is that determining how close a planet is to the angles (horizon and meridian) is properly calculated in prime vertical longitude, not by taking a simple ecliptical distance. (Astrology is a multi-dimensional affair, not a flat chart.)

Take my Moon, for example. At 27°24' Aquarius, it looks to be 4°56' below my 2°20' Pisces Descendant. That's not too bad an estimate, but it's only an estimate. My Moon has latitude 4N46, so it doesn't rise, set, etc. at the same time that the (zero-latitude) zodiacal position 27°24' Aquarius rises.

In fact, for my birth latitude, my 27°24' Aquarius Moon rises when Ascendant is 17°38' Aquarius, 10° earlier. (This is when it physically rises, not just when its zodiacal position rises.) My Moon sets at birth place when Descendant is 28°56' Aquarius. It crosses MC and IC when those angles are 25°22' Aquarius. There are numerous computer tools for making these calculations.
What is the method you use to calculate a chart? Are there sidereal ephemeris? An easy to use calculator to start?
Yes, there are Sidereal ephemerides, such as The American Sidereal Ephemeris. Most or all of us are using one or another computer resource these days, either a professional-level software package like Solar Fire, or the free online calculations at astro.com, or something else.
I suppose what i mean is i would like an easy way to see my chart in the way you all use here to start giving a look at it.
Post your birth data in the "Discuss Your Own Horoscope" forum and make a request :)
I'm trying to understand what area of life is most governed by this configuration and as of now in my research i came to the conclusion is a mixture of what in tropical are considered the 2nd and 3rd house.
As Jupe mentioned earlier, we're not big on houses. While it has been quite possible to statistically demonstrate the existence of Sidereal sign placements, planetary aspects, and angularity, there is actually no large-scale, objective demonstration that houses even exist. I suspect they do - in a more subtle way than often is thought - but that's speculation.

More to the point, though (IMHO), there is a philosophical difference here. The idea that some astrological factors pertain to one area of life and other, different factors to another area of life, runs contrary to what we know about human psychology and human life. One of the most important aphorisms for navigating life, I think, is: How you are in one area of your life is how you are in every area of your life. (More or less.) People who are devoted and service-oriented tend to be that way in every part of their life. Same with people who are bad procrastinators, people who confront what's in front of them, people who make excuses, etc. The fact that my Mercury-Saturn conjunction is in the 2nd house doesn't just mean it will work out through "2nd house matters," or even related spin-off matters; the Mercury-Saturn character traits will also express themselves in how I relate to people (whether intimately, at work, or socially), in my attitude toward home and family, in how I communicate (of course), and more. It's an expression of my character that comes out in everything I do.
I have also to say that however that calculating my transits with the usual tropical method, this year they were pretty spot on in predicting various occurrences in my life, so there must be some merit in it, even if i understand it's a fabrication like the daylight saving times in a way.
Transits are going to be much the same Tropically or Sidereally, especially in the early decades of life. Because the Tropical zodiac is perpetually retrograde (it's 0° Aries is constantly going backwards around the ecliptic), Tropical transits are progressively distorted by about 0°00'50" per year of life (take your age and subtract 1/6 of it to get how many minutes of arc your Tropical planets are out of whack). Because it was realized long ago that transits in the unmoving Sidereal framework are far more accurate on precision timing than transits in the moving Tropical framework, several leading Tropical astrologers (e.g., Charles Carter and Rob Hand) concluded they needed to compensate for this progressive "slip" if they wanted to keep using the Tropical zodiac. For example, at age 25 (subtract 1/6 of that age, which is 4), precession has slipped 0°21' (25 minus 4): To get carefully timed transits in the Tropical zodiac, you would need to add 0°21' to every planet's position first.

[TO BE CONTINUED]
And there is a whole different method of chart interpretation, the moon is almost on par with the sun
That's not different, actually. That's been an evident factor from my earliest lessons in Tropical astrology (a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away).
So i was wondering if the astrology discussed here put emphasis on the same things as tropical astrology or if it's different also in the method of interpretation, if it consider some aspects more important than others etc etc.
These answers are in the links I gave you above. Generally, because of their dynamic, energetic natures, primary focus is put on conjunctions, oppositions, and squares. Separately, the closest aspects are given the most weight, and those closest to angles are considered the most outwardly expressible in life.
How do you focalize in which area of experience a particular configuration act?
How you are in any one area of your life is pretty much the same as how you are in every area of your life.
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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 pm
Interesting. What do you mean with mundane charts based on the vertical?
Prime Vertical. Check out the "astromaps" on astro.com or look at this mundane prediction thread.
What is the method you use to calculate a chart?
Solar Fire or astro.com
Are there sidereal ephemeris?
Yes. Also astro.com will calculate one for you.
An easy to use calculator to start? I suppose what i mean is i would like an easy way to see my chart in the way you all use here to start giving a look at it. As i said i'm an interested beginner and mostly use calculators, then i read articles on the placements and aspects to understand it. I would like some directions to do the same with my sidereal chart.
Go to this thread on using astro.com.

Most of the rest of your questions, Jim has answered above.

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by -mindscapes- » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:09 pm
...
It's becoming really clear to me that i should look into some basic astronomy to really understand all the concepts. I find difficult to picture and understand fully what you said, even if i sort of got the gist of it. Do you have some basic astronomy book or online resource to suggest?

Another thing that i'm thinking about, is that while it's interesting finding out correspondences between one personality and external factors and energies, i'm more interested in how we can use this information to better ourselves. How do you integrate this knowledge in your life? How do you deal with bad placements? Do you try to be conscious of your tendencies and moderate them? I understand that vedic somewhat try to tackle this problem, even with external aids in some cases (they have gemstones, yantras..), but i haven't seen much about it in traditional astrology.

Will post my data in the forum for sure, i think it's somewhat interesting!

Thanks for the help

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:45 pm

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 pm
EDIT: found this that answered my question about houses http://cura.free.fr/docum/02fagan.html
Oh. No. We no longer use that either. It was an attempt by Fagan to figure out a way to use houses. It's as useful as any other house system. Remember a lot of what Fagan was doing was writing to his friends putting up hypotheses that could be proven or shot down.

That one has a lot of holes.

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by -mindscapes- » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:52 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:40 pm
Most of the rest of your questions, Jim has answered above.
Thanks. I'm familiar with astro. I changed my preferences to sidereal, fagan bradley and campanus.. should be the correct chart. My sun sign change to cancer, along with some other planets changing sign. My moon remain sagittarius, neptune also become sagittarius, so it seems i have a true textbook stellium and in strong conjuction aspect at that. It's clear that it's the defining characteristic of my chart. Now as i wrote above the problem is how to deal with this chaos lol. Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Moon all conjunct. You can imagine my life is a big mental rollercoaster!

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:54 pm

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:42 pm
Do you have some basic astronomy book or online resource to suggest?
No, I don't. A celestial globe might help you. Wikipedia will probably cover each of the technical astronomy terms pretty well (often with pictures). Beyond that, any good college astronomy introduction.
Another thing that i'm thinking about, is that while it's interesting finding out correspondences between one personality and external factors and energies, i'm more interested in how we can use this information to better ourselves. How do you integrate this knowledge in your life? How do you deal with bad placements? Do you try to be conscious of your tendencies and moderate them?
It all begins with having clarity on how you actually are: From that point, you have choices. Technically, the rest of your questions are outside the field of astrology - they're part of broader life management - but astrologers need to be familiar with such principles of life management if they're going to guide people.

A primary principle is not to resist anything that is fundamentally true about you: Embrace it. Another thing to understand is that while the expression of a particular energy shown in your horoscope is inescapable (if you try to resist it, a pathological form will sneak out from under the covers when you aren't looking), but the exact form of that expression is another matter. A tool, therefore, is o recognize how the energy expresses within yourself - just from knowing yourself! - and pick an expression that is consistent with it. (Simple example: If your nature is fundamentally aggressive and physical, you can pick from a very wide range of ways and places to be aggressive and physical. Picking an expression and acting on it reduces the unconscious "leak" expressions or other inadvertent negative expressions.)
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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:00 pm

-mindscapes- wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:52 pm
Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Moon all conjunct. You can imagine my life is a big mental rollercoaster!
We have three other "super-Sagittarians" on the forum. If you scout around, you'll see that By Jove (1990 Dec 18) has Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune in Sagittarius. (Puts you to shame, lol.) Mike (1989 Dec 20) has Sun, Mercury, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune in Sagittarius (several of those square his Virgo Moon). James Condor (1984 Jan 9) has Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, and Neptune in Sagittarius (most of those square his Pisces Moon).
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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by -mindscapes- » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:12 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:00 pm
(Puts you to shame, lol.)
For real :lol: :lol: It seems i am in good company! Will scout the forum for their chart, i'm sure it will be usefull in understanding mine! Tomorrow i will post my entire chart, along with some discussion about how i live it.. I don't have the experience to contribute much but at least i hope it can be an useful data point in your ongoing research to perfect this craft!

in the meantime thanks for your help!

Goodnight, or have a nice day ;)

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Re: Some questions (sidereal beginner)

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:32 pm

Don't post the chart, just the data. We'll take it from there.
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