Mars in Libra sign project

This is where I am temporarily filing the Sun- and Moon-constellation discussions of the last year if I have dug through the content yet, matching them to my own data pools.
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Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:19 am

Welcome to the Mars in Libra discussions project, which will run October 18 - November 17, 2019 (and then will remain around in case people want to revisit it in the future). Please gather your list of Mars in Libra people (especially those you know personally) and join us.

Here are Mars in Libra interpretive resources on the forum:
Primary section: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32#p121
Garth Allen: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33#p136

Mars in Libra has similarities to and differences from Sun in Libra. To help discern these similarities and differences, here is a link to the earlier Sun in Libra discussion: https://www.solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1709

My current concise summary of Mars in Libra (always subject to change) reads:
Warm, sociable, likable. Independent, self-sufficient, survivors (slow to ask for help). Persistent, serious, intent. Interesting, odd (disreputable?), on outskirts. Ego distinction prevails over ego-submersion (but wants marriage). Passion for social justice. Feminine thrives better than masculine (feminist). Women aggressively protect families, friends (power, impact). Men struggle with gender expectations (some bullies). Substance abuse problems.
Here on Solunars, people with Mars in Libra include James Condor, Freya, Jupiter Sets at Dawn, and others that haven't been seen in a while, such as Gerry456, Icarus, Sharona, Bob Oz, and Oriole.
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:47 am

I have natal Mars in Libra. One thing I would add to your interpretation is "does not want to impose." It's a big reason I'm slow to ask for help. It may seem a subtle hair-splitting, but it's not. It's a basic drive.

I don't want to impose, and I would rather not feel obligated to anyone. Other people trying to impose expectations, especially social obligations, on me feels like they're trying to claw the soul out of my body. There's probably more to this than just Mars position since it's so at odds to my Leo Sun opposing Jupiter across the horizon.

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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:23 am

Both of my parents had Mars in Libra and I'd say both had that trait - though I'd always taken it as simply a typical small town Midwest point of view. (Like Dad never taking sugar in his ice tea after growing up during sugar rationing: "You don't go visit somebody's house and use up their sugar.")

Looking down a list of people I know best, Scorpio-Cap friend with Mars in Libra definitely fits. (For her, I think it's a variation of Scorpio's not wanting to have or show weakness - ah, wait, that does sound a great deal like what one might theoretically get from a debilitated Mars.) There is also the Mars in Libra tendency to be the "black sheep," the odd one left out - perhaps the explanation is not that they are uncomfortable / unfamiliar / awkward around matters of reciprocity and "balance" - that's consistent with the "don't want to be in debt" etc. (Both sides of what you stated, Jupe, could be seen as an uncomfortable "things have to be equal" sort of thing - at least, it seems so from the outside. Does that ring true for you? I know a Leo-Taurus with Mars in Libra who is incredibly giving but does strike me as not willing to accept help he hasn't paid for somehow (a pride thing? or...?). OMG, I just noticed a double Scorpio who you can see practically measuring in her head how much one person owes the other in a relationship and what she thinks it would take to make things equal.

Of course, three of the six U.S. presidents with Mars in Libra were murdered, and two of the others died in office. Not sure what that means, but it jumped out at me.

Jupe, that's what I can see from the charts on file where I know enough to make some observations. Does any of this strike home for you? And (separate question) does any of it seem to provide a larger context (more generalized principle) for the particular traits you mentioned?
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:58 pm

I don't like "owing" people according to other people, and I don't like owing people according to myself, and when you accept help from other people and also when you help other people, they see it as obligating you to either give help in return or to accept help in return.

It's not showing weakness, and it's not not understanding reciprocity. It's not wanting the obligation in either direction.

I think that's what I see with the Republican tendency toward isolationism. We don't need help from anybody (strongest military in the world!) and if we give aid to another country, it's because we want to, not because we owe them anything, especially not because we have resources they don't. We are not obligated. Do not tell us we have to send aid to war-torn anywhere, or earthquake-ravaged where-ever.

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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:11 am

(This is now consolidated from the posts that ended up in a different thread.)
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:45 pm

Any further comment / observations on this before we get ready to flip to Scorpio?
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by James Condor » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:57 pm

Ego distinction prevails over ego-submersion (but wants marriage). Men struggle with gender expectations (some).

Examples?

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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:26 pm

For which? (There are two very different clumps in thay quote.)
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by James Condor » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:55 am

For both

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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:41 am

Men struggle with gender expectations (some).

This is much the same as for Sun in Libra, but perhaps with more friction over it. One of the most important considerations in interpreting a natal chart is to look for places where the "outside voices" (the world's expectations) agree or disagree with (support or resist) what one really is. One of the most pronounced areas of this is gender roles. As a simple rule of thumb, if something in the chart shows strong tendency to cultural gender stereotypes and these match one's actual gender, the primary experience is that the world supports, encourages, and accepts who you are; but if if it is the opposite gender, the world is more likely resist, discourage, fight with, and put down who you are.

This basic feeling difference of the world resisting vs. supporting who one fundamentally is can be a far stronger factor in one's life than the details of the particular factor itself. A consequence is that (as a generalization) women (girls) with Sun or Mars in Libra tend to thrive and men (boys) with Sun or Mars in Libra tend to feel minimized and sidelined, most typically reacting with extreme overcompensation.

This, of course, is stronger and places and times when gender roles are most rigid. I imagine we will find that it's less true for children born today than children born even 20 years ago, and especially 40, 50, 60 or more years ago. In the '70s, '80s, and '90s you could pretty reliably say of a Libra man that unless he was openly fem-gay or a successful competitive artist, he was likely to act minimized, withdrawn, over-compensating, likely a bully, etc. There simply weren't cultural outlets for a man to act in overtly feminine ways. (One can say much the same about Aries, where most of the women haven't done so well historically unless they were born into a place of command or found a covert means of control and domination, but the men are allowed to thrive just fine.)

I've often thought that Bradley's insistence that Libra is "the black sheep of the zodiac" - something I find obvious enough with the Sun but much more obvious with Mars, which in Libra seems much of a "social outlier" - is because most figures studied were men where this characteristic is historically more obvious.
Ego distinction prevails over ego-submersion (but wants marriage).
This was my language to try to balance two traits that seem "either-or" and at odds with each other, but which seem (based on observation) to co-exist comfortably enough in Mars in Libra people. (I observe this especially in Libra Mars women but don't doubt that it's equally present in the men: it's just more like the cultural norm expected of men, so less visible.)

The first trait is that they really do want marriage. We have one important statistical study showing that Sun in Libra men are the most likely to marry of any sign type, and this behavior and these choices seem matched by Mars in Libra. They want to marry, they'll tell you they want to marry, they act like they want to marry, and usually they marry.

The second trait is that - unlike most other sign types when they are way into getting married - Mars in Libra people maintain an almost aloof independence. They don't slide toward merging with another. It's not as simple as wanting both people to retain individual choices and be supported in their careers and other life priorities, it's like (or, from the outside, looks like) their actions are constantly affirming their ego-distinction. When I talk to those I know best, some have seem puzzled at the observation: They think they're partnering as much as anyone else does. But their words, body-language, etc. are routinely more like that of single people than like closely partnered people.

Struggling with these facts for a while, I finally saw a path to explaining them by merely acknowledging the co-existence of the seeming contradiction: As a group, they definitely want to marry AND YET maintaining ego-distinction is more important to them than ego-submersion (submerging their egos into the duo).
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Re: Mars in Libra sign project

Post by James Condor » Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:26 am

I still see your explanation as more theory than specific examples especially with the gender role. Let’s see if my personal experiences reflect what you’re saying.
I personally have become friends with and spent allot of time with at least 5 Mars in Libra people and myself included.
I have always been on the fence about marriage (haven’t been married) and sometimes my first reaction had been repulsive towards it. I see marriage as more of a social construct or tradition that doesn’t signify two peoples love for each other but rather shows that they are socially a thing. It has more to do with either being uncomfortable alone or social (outside) pressure like agreeing with or belonging rob family/friends, culture, tradition, expectations. I do not think the act of marriage is religious or special or holy or important in reflecting commitment or truth or love.
Now, the idea of marriage works for me if I meet someone who I know I’d try anything to preserve the marriage. But this is before I actually live with the person. And if there’s any doubt about spending my life with a person then I’ll weigh my options and haven’t pulled the trigger. I do want to be in a relationship allot of times but it just rarely happens. And I’ve actually never dated anyone who I had my eye on. It always surprises me who I date. It’s always an odd pairing, unexpected.
As far as gender roles, I don’t like when people overcompensate or show that weakness. I don’t think I’ve overcompensated much. It’s too obvious and unnatural like I wouldn’t act like that alone.
I played sports in grade school and wanted to play sports. Until I hit puberty I didn’t want to play organized school sports but then I realized it’s worth the effort and time.
I never really picked on people for being sexually different. I might have had judgements in my head but never confronted them. I mean we can all tell who’s different. Other peers noticed gay people before I did.
My friends Adam, Alex, Tony and Brent also have Mars in Libra. Adam was married for only 2-3 years. Alex and Tony are like always single and never married and Brent has been married for like 5 years and has 2 kids. It’s a mixed bag. So if anything Mars in Libra people are mostly single based on my friends. Me Alex and Tony don’t care for marriage. 3 out of the 5 have substance abuse issues and the other two are very sober and haven’t touched much of anything.
Adam played professional basketball over seas. Alex played baseball but quit. Tony played both high school football and basketball.Brent wrestled and I played high school baseball basketball and football. I think we’ve all been bullied and have acted like bullies at some point. Brent is the only one that I notice overcompensates. I think we have all not acted macho on purpose because we know it’s phony. It’s phony for us to act macho and it’s phony for the anyone to act macho. It’s just an ego thing.
The ‘independent /slow to ask for help ‘is one thing I notice in all of them and me. Living alone (except Brent) not really forthcoming and/or acting on basic desires of what we want? Not working with others to get what we want but rather figuring it out our own way? Idk. There’s something like not wanting to involve others because we don’t want to know how that would go or we know it won’t go smoothly and too much stress/tension would come from it. Like being misunderstood

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