Blossom's Chart

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blossomintobeing
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Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:11 am

Hi!

I'm new here, and have studied astrology for about 15 years, on and off. It feels like one of those tools that I'm still internalizing and learning about, and would love to trade opinions on it with you all here.

I can feel that I'm in a phase of coming in for a landing lately, God willing. Having gone through challenges upon challenges for years, my life has always been a mixture of extreme highs and lows; mingling with spiritual leaders, super rich family but I grew up without running water and my mother died homeless because she renounced their wealth for "what really matters." I've lived the entire spectrum of the human experience and am happy to be settling into my own skin and life finally. I'm beginning to really know who I am at a deep level, and that feels good.

Still, I have some questions about purpose and relationships. I can feel that my purpose is a mighty one. My chart might even allude to it. And with my Venus and Mars locked up in the 12th house, I sometimes wonder how to show my feelings and passions to others.

Your thoughts, insights, and conversation is welcome and invited. I look forward to a mutually enjoyable exchange on these and more topics.

Name: Blossom
Birth Date: August 31, 1983
Birth Time: 6:18 AM (Sunrise)
Birth Place: Palm Springs, CA
Source: Birth Certificate

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:19 am

Blossom, welcome to Solunars. What a lovely way for you to express transiting Mercury crossing your Descendant, opposing your Sun, and squaring your Moon as... reaching out for communication on astrology :)

I'll add some starter notes on your chart as we see it, but (in case I get delayed in this) thought I'd first list a careful measurement of your planetary angularities to help anyone else that might take a look.

Sun on Asc -1°02'
Uranus on IC -1°07'
Jupiter on Asc +1°18'
Moon on MC -4°43' (or sq. Asc 2°02')
Venus on Asc +6°45'

At a first glance, I'd say your chart fits the "riches" side of the continuum more than the "rags" side - the most vivid elements of your chart speak of nearly royalty, or at least aristocracy. Were your natal chart somebody's solar or lunar return, for example, it would mark a time of enormous windfall or great material good fortune. Nonetheless, there is also a strong element of independence (which, of course, can be consistent with a life of either rags or riches) and - with the very strong solar presence of Sun exactly rising in Leo, a definite sense of purpose or destiny.

Besides the dominant Sun and Jupiter themes, a further sense of overall "dignity" in your chart is reflected in the unusually high number of planets dignified by sign placement. Besides Sun at home in Leo and Moon exalted in Taurus, you have Mercury at home and exalted in Virgo and Saturn exalted in Libra. The only debilited planet is Mars, in its fall in Cancer; and Mars is, overall, your worst-placed planet being in the immediate background (i.e., tightly conjunct a cadent cusp), in the sign of its Fall, with no aspect except a single acute 0°01' sesqui-square to Neptune. I would guess that most of the serious problems in your life could be characterized as "Mars problems."

More when I can get it worked up.
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:12 am

Here is a copy of your chart for reference.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:13 am

These notes on your Sidereal Natal Horoscope are provided for your reference and study. They are not a full interpretation of your birth chart; rather, they are building blocks from which a full interpretation can be built.

Each factor listed below contributes to your character. These paragraphs commonly repeat or contradict each other. (We all have contradictions.) Though it does not take an astrologer to fuse these factors into a balanced picture of you and your life, it does require knowledge of human behavior and the ways that people support and sabotage themselves. Knowing yourself is a life-long undertaking. I encourage you to read through these notes, feeling your way through the interweaving ideas and reflecting on what you know of yourself.

The paragraphs are brief. I have sought to pack in everything essential, to use a few words to imply much more. Not every phrase will apply, of course. Some will be more important than others; but the gist of each section should clearly reflect truth about you. When you have spent time with this and have new questions, consult your astrologer to discuss them.

Character is destiny. Who you are determines the life that is yours to unfold. “Know thyself” is the key.

ANGULAR PLANETS
Sun conjunct Ascendant (1°02')
Warm, friendly, generous, shining their light on the world (often in a paternal, possibly controlling, sense). Vital, assertive, confident (or acts it). Aware they have purpose (goal, destiny) they must seek, find, and actualize. At best: Is in charge of self and does well leading others (can be bossy, demanding, entitled). Needs centricity (attracts satellites; may expect others’ world to revolve around them). Drawn to proud, useful institutions. Instinct for immortality.

Uranus opposite Midheaven (1°07')
Strongly individualistic, independent, going their own way. Needs freedom and breathing room (physical, intellectual) and frequent renewal (through new interests and experiences, shedding inhibitions, shaking loose stale conditions). Responds strongly to the new, unexpected, thrilling, colorful, exciting. Pragmatic realist anchored by naked truth (seeker who forges an ideal from experience of the actual). Clownish, fun. Prefers disclosure over mystery.

Jupiter opposite Midheaven (1°18')
Positive, optimistic, oriented to the good and qualitative. Unusually lucky. Aspires to (enjoys) life of leisure and its perks (seeks to improve self and conditions). Generous, congenial, tolerant, good-humored, kind. Sexually giving. Needs esteem and inclusion (usually well received; can be overly role-conscious). Responds to cultural totems, heritage, tradition, social graces, social and ceremonial rituals. Champion of justice and fair play.
Sun square Uranus (0°05' in mundo)
Go their own way, unapologetically following their own paths, persuaded that they are a “special case.” Resourceful, stimulating, but easily bored (in need of frequent stimulation). Love of freedom: bow to no authority but themselves. Progressive, future-oriented, uninhibited by convention. Adept at creative problem solving. Self-perspective usually founded in objectivity.

Jupiter conjunct Uranus (2°25' in mundo)
Mind interested in and well-suited to science, philosophical inquiry, and self-inquiry (knack for astrology). Success through unlikely paths (likely to succeed in life and distinguish themselves). Committed to progress, instinct for exceptionalism. Ingenuity, insight (sees outside the usual maps, pathways, and systems; thinks on a broader scale). Respectful while unbeholden to artificial rank, class, or caste (it’s unimportant to them); gently resists authority (conflict with authority), speaks truth to power, stands against injustice, egalitarian (social activist).
Moon conjunct Midheaven (4°43')
Adaptive in response to social, psychological, and environmental conditions (mask, roll, act). Impressionable, responsive, malleable, imaginative. Needs constant stimulation (of mind or senses). Strong sexual appetites; responsive to affection, friendship, sexual suggestion. Amiable, accommodating; sensitive, receptive, tender, empathic (touchy, moody, reactive). Vulnerable to judgments, displeasure, criticism. At home before an audience.
Moon square Sun (1°00')
Energetic, dynamic, terrific drive, forceful. Psychic vitality, a mental-emotional attitude biased toward success. At home with power. Intense desire in whatever they undertake. High vitality. Sexual desires also particularly strong, passionate, though often narcissistic. Possible vanity, self-exaltation, and obstinacy.

Moon opposite Uranus (3°22')
Intellectually rebellious, roving, curious, inquiring. Not wholly comfortable with outside guidance. Original, futuristic, needing variety. Free-spirited: psychologically lives outside convention. Subject to tensions, emotional stress.
Venus conjunct Ascendant (6°45')
Charming, attractive, popular. Friendly, amiable, gracious. Kind, considerate, benevolent. Flirtatious, affectionate (sexually more receptive than aggressive). Loving, caretaking, mothering. Drawn to beauty, pleasure, peace, tranquility (not pain, violence, turbulence); averse to cruelty and harm. Needs to experience pleasure and beauty; requires harmony and ease (reduced stress and friction). Stubborn and fierce toward injustice (personal or social).

SUN in LEO
Requires centricity and satellites: Holds court. Casual dignity, simple elegance, innate flair. Authority, courage, competitive, hates weakness, nurtures talent. Warm, loyal; must love and be loved (centricity, adoration); sexually lusty, playful. Purity, perfection (pedantic). Strong religious instinct. Childlike delight.

MOON in TAURUS
Cordial, charming, magnetic. Soft, gentle, vulnerable; but brave (not timid). Values harmlessness, simplicity. Quest (groping) for emotional truth, driven by how they feel about things. Flirtatious, romantically roving. Thoughtful, reflective, independent thinker. Learns rapidly; relearns slowly. Sensuous. Beauty, art.
Moon sextile Mars (2°54')
Active-reactive; temper. Detests idleness. Driven, competent, ambitious. Impatient, acerbic. Frank, sharp-tongued. Needs physical, emotional, and mental room to breathe. Possible substance abuse. Sexual needs strong, irrepressible.
MARS in CANCER
Inner strength (prodigious imagination and fantasy) usually holds private demons at bay; but clings to old wounds (angry, acting out, selfish, retaliatory from old mistreatment). Breeds confidence, makes things happen. Loyal, speaks truth to power; but wants a chance to lead. Magnetic (passionate following?). Wants adoration sexually (otherwise it’s business-like).
Mars octile Neptune (0°01')
Thrives amidst stirred passion and drama. Supercharged imagination. Surges into temptation; impatient with frustrated gratification; requires rapid conformity of reality to wants (usually gets it). Zealous enthusiasms. Dramatic aggressions; anger patterns triggered by frustration. Sexually magnetic (yet sexual demons and doubts). Great stamina for long-term vision.
MERCURY in VIRGO
Curious, observant, methodical, analytical. Quiet, almost soft-spoken, good-natured (maybe too passive). Communication is right to the point (journalist). Logical, strategic: Wants the facts before deciding, considers all sides.
Mercury sextile Jupiter (2°06')
Intelligent; seems well-read, educated. Loves ideas and learning, comfortable with words. Good-tempered, kind. Optimistic. Business potential (from luck more than skill?). Always awaiting the next opportunity or break.

Mercury square Neptune (4°08')
Hyper-responsive to environment, sensitive to impressions (psychic). Magnifies trivialities (perfectionist). Loves puzzle- or problem-solving: psychological relief from fantasied problem solving (may avoid real problems). Dreamer, storyteller; can enthuse others, convince someone of almost anything.
VENUS in LEO
“Parents” her friends (= unequal relationships). Self-surrender is hard. Vain, aloof. Bold when romance captures their interest (but many older bachelors). “Shoppers” in romance, testing the ground first. Early sexual mismatches (unhealthy early relationships). Keen sense of morality and dignity. Generous friend.
Venus sextile Pluto (0°05')
Gentle, kindly soul, with deep emotional intensity. Instinctively rejects others’ conventions on love, sex, art. Wants penetrating, intimate, pure connections. May withdraw from people if repeatedly rebuked.

Venus trine Neptune (1°09')
Idealistic, idyllic, loves to be enchanted. Usually comfortably happy, gently romantic, passive. Naive about people in romance but reads people easily when not personally involved. Good-hearted, ingratiating, devoted, humanitarian.

Venus sextile Saturn (2°58')
Work, duty, and devotion are gratifying. Restrictions in love; ordinary pleasures may be deferred. Many seem comfortable unpartnered, though there is rarely sexual restraint. Childhood hardship or deprivation shape adult patterns. Sober, responsible.
OUTER PLANET ASPECTS
Neptune sextile Pluto (1°04')
Open to shifting point of view, alternative perspectives, variant possibilities: Potential to forge a new worldview and enroll others. Uncertainty feeds desire for certainty, regarding things a certain way and not other.

Saturn conjunct Pluto (3°03')
Resists outside control, needs autonomy. Solitary path comes naturally; partnership takes effort. Survivors: Great strength, self-reliance, and persistence in the face of hardship (stubborn, entrenched). Women are tough as nails but can become hardened, cut-off. Resent feeling too much is put on them.
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm

Thank you, Jim, for the depth of that interpretation.

Yeah, Mars seems to be the figurative "thorn" in my astrological side. And, perhaps, a mighty thorn... because without Mars, I seem to struggle to put an engine behind the Starship that is the rest of my chart.

On Astro.com, Mars seems to have an aspect to Jupiter. It's a 9 degree orb, though, so may be too loose of an aspect to count.

Interesting to note that Mars in Cancer is ruled by the moon, but also aspected by it, and I already shared what happened to my mom when I was young.

I appreciate the balanced review of squares you shared in your description. I have a lot of them, including the pressure point of a T-Square on my Ascendant/Sun. I'd always thought squares were nothing but bad, but your description paints them in a different light. Do you tend to think they're more of a mixed bag than people tend to think?

Over the years, I've heard that malefic planets and aspects can eventually yield gifts. Like Saturn, who, after the age of 36, can make us authoritative in the areas they aspect (depending on dignities and aspects, of course; a malefic planet with malefic aspects won't generally start working for us unless we have strong mitigating factors in other parts of the chart or other balancing aspects).

I'll study the notes you shared above. Thank you for them!

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 pm

blossomintobeing wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
On Astro.com, Mars seems to have an aspect to Jupiter. It's a 9 degree orb, though, so may be too loose of an aspect to count.
There's a great deal on aspects in the Aspects section: viewforum.php?f=16
Start with Introduction to Aspects: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=45 and then the discussions of Bradley's articles.

I appreciate the balanced review of squares you shared in your description. I have a lot of them, including the pressure point of a T-Square on my Ascendant/Sun. I'd always thought squares were nothing but bad, but your description paints them in a different light. Do you tend to think they're more of a mixed bag than people tend to think?
YAK!!
Squares are not "bad" nor "malefic." There's no "mixed bag." Aspects are not good or bad, benefic or malefic. An aspect between Saturn and your Sun might be benefic, but that would be any aspect, including a trine. A Sun-Jupiter square is benefic.
It's the planets that are benefic or malefic, not the aspects. That's a basic tenet of Sidereal astrology.
I think you might find the discussion of our points of agreement helpful understanding our school of astrology: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2259&p=20118 even though it's still a work in progress.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:26 pm

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 pm
YAK!!
Squares are not "bad" nor "malefic." There's no "mixed bag." Aspects are not good or bad, benefic or malefic. An aspect between Saturn and your Sun might be benefic, but that would be any aspect, including a trine. A Sun-Jupiter square is benefic.
It's the planets that are benefic or malefic, not the aspects. That's a basic tenet of Sidereal astrology.
I think you might find the discussion of our points of agreement helpful understanding our school of astrology: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2259&p=20118 even though it's still a work in progress.
Thank you! I'll study them now. And thanks for the figurative shoe upside the head haha. This is why I'm here! There are so many ways I'm ignorant of astrology, but I want to understand it better. The loose trine then between my Mars and Jupiter could bring out a little of my Jupiter laziness, then, perhaps, since Mars is malefic here. I just want to stay at home and research stuff. It's a bad habit. Stepping into my sun is much more liberating. And feels like what my soul needs. What's it like for you with a sun-ascendant connection?

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:27 pm

blossomintobeing wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:26 pm
Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:17 pm
YAK!!
Squares are not "bad" nor "malefic." There's no "mixed bag." Aspects are not good or bad, benefic or malefic. An aspect between Saturn and your Sun might be benefic, but that would be any aspect, including a trine. A Sun-Jupiter square is benefic.
It's the planets that are benefic or malefic, not the aspects. That's a basic tenet of Sidereal astrology.
I think you might find the discussion of our points of agreement helpful understanding our school of astrology: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2259&p=20118 even though it's still a work in progress.
Thank you! I'll study them now. And thanks for the figurative shoe upside the head haha. This is why I'm here! There are so many ways I'm ignorant of astrology, but I want to understand it better. The loose trine then between my Mars and Jupiter could bring out a little of my Jupiter laziness, then, perhaps, since Mars is malefic here. I just want to stay at home and research stuff. It's a bad habit. Stepping into my sun is much more liberating. And feels like what my soul needs. What's it like for you with a sun-ascendant connection?
P.S. I can't tell you how differently this makes me look at my Sun-Moon square. My goodness! I've thought that was the curse of my chart for years! :lol: :shock: ...Meanwhile, turns out... could it be a sleeping super-power? That tight angular conjunct on both planets?

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by SteveS » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:17 am

Welcome to the forum Blossom, and happy learning discovering your new spirit/soul--(truer self) in a Sun-Moon manner with Sidereal Astrology. :)

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:17 am

blossomintobeing wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:52 pm
On Astro.com, Mars seems to have an aspect to Jupiter. It's a 9 degree orb, though, so may be too loose of an aspect to count.
I do't think trines and sextiles exist past 7.5°, are rarely worth noting past 5-6°, and are most interesting within 3°.

The simplest thing we can say about this, though, is that a 9° aspect is by no means among your closest aspect. Even if there are conditions in which one would be considered viable (I doubt it), there are others that are a dozen and a half aspects that are closer, that surely will have a "louder voice" in your character.

There is one sense - a weak sense - in which you do have a Mars-Jupiter combination in your character: Jupiter is in Scorpio, which, to the very limited sense that one's Jupiter sign has anything to say, is Jupiter in a Mars field of the zodiac. This might give a shade more exuberance and need for freedom from your angular Jupiter-Uranus conjunction, in theory; but, since Jupiter and Uranus conjoined on an angle are already going to give exuberance and need for freedom,I'm not sure that we need it :)
I appreciate the balanced review of squares you shared in your description. I have a lot of them, including the pressure point of a T-Square on my Ascendant/Sun. I'd always thought squares were nothing but bad, but your description paints them in a different light. Do you tend to think they're more of a mixed bag than people tend to think?
Squares (like conjunctions and oppositions) are simply strong and dynamic. There is nothing inherently harsh, conflictual, or struggling about them beyond the fact that any strong, dynamic force in the personality will have it's strongest voice. There is simply nothing more expressive in aspects than the combination of dynamic aspects (conjunctions, oppositions, squares) on the angles and having close orbs - and you've got that in abundance.
Over the years, I've heard that malefic planets and aspects can eventually yield gifts.
One would hope this is so simply in the sense that we all eventually grow up a bit. Life is a process of learning who we are, moving past ignorance or denial of truths about ourselves, integrating the flailing offshoot pieces of ourselves, and getting to that coordinated sense of wholeness where our whole psyche and whole life speak with a single voice. That being true, what you said in the sentence just quoted is necessarily true.
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 am

Thank you, Jim. I've been reading through some of your posts in the forum and I already feel my knowledge of sidereal astrology expanding. I may even purchase Solar Fire at some point. In the meantime, I'm noticing that I have a lot of mistaken ideas about planets and aspects that will require some reforming (though I suspect my Jupiter-Uranus-Moon is generally up to the task. Haha).

I used to believe my Jupiter was further compromised by its connection to Uranus, but now I see that differently.

I especially appreciated this quote from Garth Allen about this aspect in a separate thread:
GARTH ALLEN wrote:
When a Jupiter-Uranus formation is prominent in the birth chart, the ego is free to think apart from partisan prejudices, often to the point of seeing merit where merit exists in the enemy's camp itself. Because Jupiter-Uranus is able to project itself impersonally to think and appreciate in abstract terms, and instinctively dislikes caste distinctions, this team is the sponsor of Freedom From Authoritarianism. The native does not make blanket moral evaluations of persons, and thinks on a broader scale than do the local gentry.
Now of course I'm researching my son's chart too, digging through some of the topics in the forum to gain a better understanding. He's blissfully blessed by Jupiter, with his Ascendant, Jupiter and Sun all forming a grand fire trine, and his Sun in Sagittarius in its own house, the 5th.

You said above that I have a great chart. Well, his might be better! Have a little solar fire sign under my wings. :) Just want to help him express his Cadent Mars in Leo in the first house with kindness. It's ruled by a benefic Sun, so I suspect he'll be alright. But he has an aggressive side and I want to make sure he keeps that in check. I suspect he will. He has the Sun-Moon square too. Also the exalted Saturn. And with his Mars in a better position than mine, and Jupiter in the 9th... yeah. He'll do great.

My ideas are certainly reforming in other ways, though. His Sun-Moon square, I used to worry about. Now I don't. And Uranus in the 8th house opposing his Moon, might actually give him a spark of genius. I worried it would destabilize his emotions.

Moon in the second house should hopefully serve him well, too. His only trouble may be Venus in Capricorn. It also has an EXACT square aspect to Saturn (0 degree orb). He never says "I love you," and it drives me nuts (especially considering I say it CONSTANTLY, having my Venus on the ascendant). His Venus may have some protection from the Sun, however, as it's in the 5th house. Hopefully my overly effusive expressions of love can help him be more open with future partners than that Venus-Saturn relationship might otherwise predispose him to be.

You'll also notice we have the same house cusps (Leo Ascendant and so on). Our Saturns are also in the same spot, in the same sign. Almost exactly conjunct the 3rd house cusp. His is exactly conjunct the third house cusp. Mine is just toward the end of the second house, near the 3rd house cusp, with Pluto. I'm killing some sort of pattern in my family. I can feel it. Seems like my son may be here to carry the torch.

I actually have some tight aspects to Venus from Saturn myself, and have definitely put off relationships as a result. Sometimes I feel like I'd rather not bother. Then that Moon in Taurus gives me second thoughts. I actually live in a big house with another mother and her young son, too, which seems to work amazingly well for all of us.

Thanks for your contributions here and elsewhere. Lots to learn, and so far, it's been more on the money than what I'm used to hearing. I'd almost given up on astrology. Think that's about to change.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:10 am

blossomintobeing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:16 am
Thanks for your contributions here and elsewhere. Lots to learn, and so far, it's been more on the money than what I'm used to hearing. I'd almost given up on astrology. Think that's about to change.
That is indeed gratifying. You're welcome.

As a next layer in your understanding Sidereal astrology, you might note that we pay little or no attention to houses. I can't dogmatically say houses don't exist or have no meaning (though it is frequently tempting to say so), but I can say that, of all of the primary features written about in astrology books, houses are the only one that has never been substantiated statistically. If you start from a perspective of "start from null, use no feature or structure in astrology until it has been statistically shown to exist," houses have never "made the grade."

One thing I will be dogmatic about is house rulers. They don't exist except as fictions. Removing them clears up the largest amount of malarky in astrology.

I'll admit that there are anecdotal instances where the placement of a planet in a house seems to have a legitimate, important meaning. That could be my "reading something into it" or, as I tend to think, it may be that there is something to it. For example, people with four or more planets in one house, or even a luminary in a house, often have that house as an important theme in their lives. But I think that even this could be even my reading something into it.

In any case, house placements, even if valid, are far less evident in people's character and lives than the primary factors of planetary angularity, aspects, and important sign placements.

Now... what does your son's chart look like if you strip out any references to houses above?
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:39 pm

Jim Eshelman wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:10 am

As a next layer in your understanding Sidereal astrology, you might note that we pay little or no attention to houses. I can't dogmatically say houses don't exist or have no meaning (though it is frequently tempting to say so), but I can say that, of all of the primary features written about in astrology books, houses are the only one that has never been substantiated statistically. If you start from a perspective of "start from null, use no feature or structure in astrology until it has been statistically shown to exist," houses have never "made the grade."

One thing I will be dogmatic about is house rulers. They don't exist except as fictions. Removing them clears up the largest amount of malarky in astrology.
I've been deeply-to-moderately immersed in Ayurveda and its sister science Jyotisha for a while, and house rulers seem to be a huge part of that system. The houses, similarly, are a key element of Jyotisha chart interpretation (which, if I'm honest, is deeply and perhaps unnecessarily complicated, as a system). I'm interested in how the determination was made that houses and house rules have no value; and, I'm interested in taking a look at how and whether I have mistaken ideas on the topic based on my background and experience with it.

For example, I've always felt very strongly like I am a first house Sun, but perhaps that has more to do with that tight sun conjunction with the ascendant/horizon line. I've also noticed that people in my midst with 7th house planets almost always have active relationships and can tend to be serial monogamists. Perhaps this is me fitting examples to a preconceived notion I already have. Also, I spent years in a monastery, which would couple well with my 12th house Mars and Venus. I'm also a prominent self-isolator, which also might be the Venus-Saturn aspects.

It's possible that I already THINK houses matter, so I look for proof to back it up, ignoring other statistically relevant data that disproves my perspective.

Obviously, super open to examining this on both sides of the figurative aisle.

P.S. The Jyotisha system also places house lines on the sign lines, which is different than the tropical placement. Meaning when a new sign begins, a new house begins. Which is also what led me to place his sun in the 5th house originally.
I'll admit that there are anecdotal instances where the placement of a planet in a house seems to have a legitimate, important meaning. That could be my "reading something into it" or, as I tend to think, it may be that there is something to it. For example, people with four or more planets in one house, or even a luminary in a house, often have that house as an important theme in their lives. But I think that even this could be even my reading something into it.
OK, yes, now I'm wondering this myself.

In any case, house placements, even if valid, are far less evident in people's character and lives than the primary factors of planetary angularity, aspects, and important sign placements.

Now... what does your son's chart look like if you strip out any references to houses above?
OK, so...

If I look at my son's chart as purely defined by his planetary relationships, and relationships to the angles, what stands out the most are these closely-orbed relationships...

Libra Saturn Square Capricorn Venus (0°)
Aries Jupiter Semi-sextile Pisces Uranus (0°)
Sagittarius Sun Sextile Libra Saturn (1°)
Libra Saturn Trine Aquarius Neptune (1°)
Sagittarius Sun Semi-Sextile Capricorn Venus (1°)

...This seems to give Saturn an uncomfortable prominence in his chart, which of course worries me.

And then, his Jupiter and Saturn are also in opposition, seeming to offer more proof that his benefics and malefics are in a kind of tug-of-war for power.

I sense that tug-of-war in him, actually. He is very justice-oriented with our roommate's son, and others too. He believes in always doing the right thing and is humbling-ly honest; almost has to do the right thing... but the way my son communicates it isn't always the kindest. Yes, he can do right. But he seems to have a punitive side. Maybe it's that cadent Mars in Aries. Frankly, I can have the same side.

Perhaps I should see this from a more positive perspective... look how well reigned-in his Saturn is by benefics. Benefics are swarming his exalted Saturn. Perhaps he will be incredibly responsible as a result. Seems likely.

(I may be looking at things too simplistically.)

Last question:

Are you concerned with the orb of planetary aspects to the angles; i.e. Midheaven and Ascendant? He has a tight one between both the Moon and Uranus and the midheaven.
Last edited by blossomintobeing on Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:06 pm

blossomintobeing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:39 pm
I'm interested in how the determination was made that houses and house rules have no value; and, I'm interested in taking a look at how and whether I have mistaken ideas on the topic based on my background and experience with it.
Reading through these house interpretations in the forum.

Sounds like there are sidereally-specific interpretations, but they're given little (if any) weight.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:31 pm

blossomintobeing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:39 pm

Libra Saturn Square Capricorn Venus (0°)
Aries Jupiter Semi-sextile Pisces Uranus (0°)
Sagittarius Sun Sextile Libra Saturn (1°)
Libra Saturn Trine Aquarius Neptune (1°)
Sagittarius Sun Semi-Sextile Capricorn Venus (1°)
Expanding on this...

I see a love of restriction and an intense elevation of Saturn's principles of justice and fairness (Libra) in him (Saturn square Venus).
Possible errors in judgment with Saturn aspecting Neptune; being hypersensitive to criticism or perceived criticism. I see this aspect as one of his hardest, actually.
Sun and Saturn, he has a strong personal need for autonomy and doing his own thing for sure. Doesn't take well to other people telling him what to do, although he's generally amiable (Moon trine Venus). Has abundant energy (Jupiter aspects Sun and Mars).
Jupiter square Venus, he has a huge heart.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:26 pm

Houses have no statistics to back them up. It's not that nobody's tried. It's that houses don't work. There is anecdotal evidence, but it doesn't amount to enough to say so. Fagan and Allen/Bradley were originally tropicalists, and started out with houses just like most of us. So we have a section on houses for historical reasons, and also for people who can't let go of them right away.

Most house systems fail spectacularly either near the poles or near the equator. House rulerships originated as a form of divination, as in casting lots, and are used in horary(spit). (I personally don't believe in nor do I approve of horary. Other people may feel differently.)

Astrology was originally brought to India by the Persians when they conquered the western part of India. They also brought their divination system, which got folded into astrology. The Persian system was Sidereal (not just sidereal!) but the Indians never quite figured out how to reckon the zodiac. They tried all kinds of markers, and as their markers moved away from the zodiac, they found new markers. That's why there are so many ayanamsas.

When you talk about the ascendent axis or the MC axis, you are talking about angularity. Angularity is valid. Houses are not. If houses were valid, there would not be dozens of house systems out there.

BTW, every chart you upload to this site cost Jim extra money every month. This isn't a free site. Jim pays all the fees. What we do is upload charts to a free site and then enclose the URL in image tags.
Removing the house lines is a Solar Fire thing unless you're handy with image editing programs.

Planets make aspects, but angles don't. So, no trines or sextiles to angles. Squares to angles are angles in a different system.

Jim has a (huge) book available here free for download: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=2779
Click the download link and download to your own computer instead of trying to read the near thumbnail version on that site.
Most of it is examples, so just read the material at the beginning and in the appendices, and the beginnings of the chapters to start with. You can go back and read through the examples later to get a deeper understanding of what they illustrate. That'll go a long way to explain what we're up to with angularity.
The book is Sidereal Mundane Astrology, which you may think you aren't interested in, but the principles are written out best in that book.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:14 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:26 pm
House rulerships originated as a form of divination, as in casting lots, and are used in horary(spit). (I personally don't believe in nor do I approve of horary. Other people may feel differently.)
Agree with you on horary.
Astrology was originally brought to India by the Persians when they conquered the western part of India. They also brought their divination system, which got folded into astrology. The Persian system was Sidereal (not just sidereal!) but the Indians never quite figured out how to reckon the zodiac. They tried all kinds of markers, and as their markers moved away from the zodiac, they found new markers. That's why there are so many ayanamsas.
This made me chuckle a bit, thinking about Indians taking this Persian system and overcomplicating it. Nooo. That never happens. :lol:

When I was in my early 20s, I coordinated a small Ayurvedic school, whose director was a now-best-selling author and close buddy of my later boss (a very famous Indian doctor frequently on the NYT best-selling list). Sort of fancy pants guy. Raised in a Brahmin family so grew up learning Jyotisha. Very proper but was very strict with Ayurveda, waking up early to do his yoga etc. He was instrumental in my introduction to this system.

I remember finally getting that highly-anticipated moment of aloneness in his Santa Cruz office (this guy lived and breathed Jyotisha; I couldn't wait for him to read my chart) when he said, pointedly, "Hey, give me your birth information." A few moments later, with my chart in front of him, he waved dismissively and basically summed it up by saying "The only good thing you have here is Jupiter. Thank God for your Jupiter."

That summation about describes my relationship with him, interestingly. At that point, I knew a bit about astrology, after a few short years of immersion in Tropical, and of course the same Jupiter he admired so much in my chart incidentally is what had me lean forward gapedly, thinking... I know I have better things in my chart than just Jupiter! Mercury, for one. Moon also in its favorite Jyotisha house, Rohini, for two. He also incorrectly said my retrograde Venus was combust.

I couldn't separate his analysis of my chart with what I then believed was his sexist opinion of me. He treated me differently than the men we worked with, no doubt based on his Indian upbringing. I couldn't imagine why else he was so dismissive. Then again, he came into my office on my last day at work after I gave notice, and said to me with tears in his eyes, "I don't know what I'm going to do without you." Which, thinking back, softens my opinion of him.
When you talk about the ascendent axis or the MC axis, you are talking about angularity. Angularity is valid. Houses are not. If houses were valid, there would not be dozens of house systems out there.

BTW, every chart you upload to this site cost Jim extra money every month. This isn't a free site. Jim pays all the fees. What we do is upload charts to a free site and then enclose the URL in image tags.
Removing the house lines is a Solar Fire thing unless you're handy with image editing programs.


Good to know. Removed in good conscience. Thank you.
Planets make aspects, but angles don't. So, no trines or sextiles to angles. Squares to angles are angles in a different system.

Jim has a (huge) book available here free for download: https://solunars.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=2779

Click the download link and download to your own computer instead of trying to read the near thumbnail version on that site.
Most of it is examples, so just read the material at the beginning and in the appendices, and the beginnings of the chapters to start with. You can go back and read through the examples later to get a deeper understanding of what they illustrate. That'll go a long way to explain what we're up to with angularity.
The book is Sidereal Mundane Astrology, which you may think you aren't interested in, but the principles are written out best in that book.
Thank you. I'll see if I can make my way through this with my limited knowledge of the more complex side of chart formation.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:32 am

The point of the book is it explains the basics.
If you have questions, ask. We got the author on tap.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:38 am

Thank you, Jupiter. I began reading it yesterday. I'll continue, and ask questions as I go.

I realize I diverted focus by introducing my son in this post, which I'd originally created to explore how I can best understand my own chart and its potentials.

I guess it's hard to divide myself from him, so that's normal at some level.

Are there any great threads on purpose you'd recommend that I haven't been able to track down?

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jupiter Sets at Dawn » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:14 am

blossomintobeing wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:38 am
I realize I diverted focus by introducing my son in this post, which I'd originally created to explore how I can best understand my own chart and its potentials.
You can start a thread for him. "Blossom's son"
I guess it's hard to divide myself from him, so that's normal at some level.
You know that's going to drive him to get further from you at least at some point. Nothing to do with astrology. Just normal parent-child interaction. So you might want to look at how that's affecting your relationship at some point
Are there any great threads on purpose you'd recommend that I haven't been able to track down?
I'm not sure what this sentence means. "on purpose" could be read a couple ways. And I don't know what you'd consider "great." But you could read the stuff pinned at the top of each section. Go to Home (index.php) then scroll down to "Natal Astrology" and click on "Misc. on Natal Astrology". There are three posts pinned there worth reading. Then go back to Natal Astrology and click on Planets, and you'll find some posts pinned there.
And so on.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:53 am

So much to catch up on here since last night! Let me see if I can find a few tidbits on which to contribute.
blossomintobeing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:39 pm
I've been deeply-to-moderately immersed in Ayurveda and its sister science Jyotisha for a while, and house rulers seem to be a huge part of that system.
Yes, they are a big part of it. That's one of the reasons we go to great lengths to distinguish ourselves from the Hindu schools. Sidereal astrology is NOT Hindu astrology.
  • In terms of technique, the Hindu schools mostly resemble modern Western Tropical astrology. This is most obvious in the use of houses and house rulers, but is broadly true. The houses, similarly, are a key element of Jyotisha chart interpretation ...
  • In terms of zodiac, the Hindu schools are much closer to us. Their zodiacs are all sidereal (non-precessional), though with different theories about where the signs start.
For example, I've always felt very strongly like I am a first house Sun, but perhaps that has more to do with that tight sun conjunction with the ascendant/horizon line.
Yes, the first thing is that your Sun is about 1° from Ascendant. Regardless of what angle Sun is on, an exactly angular Sun is going to give solar characteristics - same on MC, Dsc, IC.

But - as a second layer - what I said about "no houses" may not fully apply to the distinctions of different angles. (Saying "There might not be something called a 4th house" is not at odds with "The IC itself may have a quality distinctive from the other angles.") I think the angles do have their own distinctions. Perhaps the best objective measurement of this is the Gauquelin research in planetary angularity for eminent professionals, where very large, well-conducted statistical studies of birth charts for successful professionals showed key planets on the angles (e.g., Mars for athletes, Saturn for scientists, etc.) far beyond expectation. The point relevant here at the moment is that these key planets especially spiked at Asc and MC and much less at Dsc and IC - suggesting either a strength distinction between Asc/MC vs. Dsc/IC or (my view) that profession expressed stronger through outward-facing, outward-acting angles (Asc and MC) than more those that have some bias to more private areas of life (Dsc/IC).

But let me be clear: If you have a planet on any angle, it will fuel your basic character. How you are in one area of life is pretty much how you are in all areas of your life. The first and strongest matter is simply that the planet is closely angular - with no distinction of which angle it is. However, there is likely a secondary distinction based on the particular angle.
I've also noticed that people in my midst with 7th house planets almost always have active relationships and can tend to be serial monogamists.
I suggest you start distinguishing whether the planet is "in the 7th house" or "conjunct Descendant" (or both). These may be separately valid factors with independent and interrelating meanings.

For example, my Moon is 3°15' below Descendant. It is my only angular planet, so I am a fundamentally lunar person. Now, as to "house influence," if any, the old school Tropical approach was to consider any planet within 5-10° of a house cusp as being in the house interpretively, i.e., my Moon would be regarded as a 7th house Moon even though it left the 7th house 18 minutes before I was born. I am suggesting that, if houses actually do have an objective meaning, this Moon would be separately "conjunct Descendant" and "in the 6th house."

It has seemed to me that - separate from planets conjunct Dsc - people with many planets in the 7th house (say, a 7th house stellium, which seems to be what you are describing) have a very strong need for feedback and response from other people, they need confirming acknowledgement from others, they need others to see them a particular way. That could account for the "serial monogamy" pattern you are seeing, or other patterns.
Perhaps this is me fitting examples to a preconceived notion I already have. Also, I spent years in a monastery, which would couple well with my 12th house Mars and Venus. I'm also a prominent self-isolator, which also might be the Venus-Saturn aspects.
Two planets in the 12th don't make for that kind of big life effect. If your Sun were high in the 12th it would be a better argument.

I don't see much self-isolation in your chart, though I accept your word that it's in you. That's usually Saturn or Pluto influence, sometimes an "asylum" effect of a Saturn-Neptune aspect. You do have a Saturn-Pluto conjunction reasonably close, but it's in a weak part of your chart (near a cadent cusp). Saturn-Pluto aspects to your Venus could relate to a kind of social withdrawal, but not of the scope you seem to be describing. (Meanwhile, several things in your chart - not the least of which is your strong Sun-Jupiter - are consistent with wanting to spend time in a monastery for other reasons - e.g., for spiritual reasons - though they are inherently social.
Are you concerned with the orb of planetary aspects to the angles; i.e. Midheaven and Ascendant? He has a tight one between both the Moon and Uranus and the midheaven.
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you talking about orbs of contacts to the angles themselves, or of orbs of other aspects proximate to the angles? (Or something else.)
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:18 am

Continuing...
blossomintobeing wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:06 pm
Reading through these house interpretations in the forum.

Sounds like there are sidereally-specific interpretations, but they're given little (if any) weight.
I wouldn't call them Sidereally-specific. They are Eshelman-specific. In the late '70s and early '80s, Rob Hand and I were thinking along similar lines of trying to find a rational pattern from which basic house principles fell. (We ended up talking about the topic at the same convention then briefly compared notes after.) He did it a little differently - a single-pole development off the Ascendant. I took a two-pole approach, so to speak, showing the interweaving of meridian and horizon axes.

That's not the link you gave. The development I'm describing is here:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=196
As I hope the article makes clear, these aren't assertions that certain things are so, they are a modelling of how and why things would be so if houses exist. In fact, one of the things that has me keeping the idea of houses alive in my head is that this model - based on other things I hold to be quite true - would seem to necessarily create something akin to traditional house meanings. It seems bizarre (given this) that they wouldn't exist.

But I won't let the theory overrule the bigger issue of whether I can objectively demonstrate their existence in mass (non-individual-case, non-anecdotal) terms.

The link you gave is a collation of different fundamental definitions across history - notes for a possible eventual work on the subject, or maybe just reference notes for others. Want to know how certain ideas about a house developed historically? You can probably find the answer in those notes.


An aside concerning your son. I'm not remarking on anything you say about his chart because we don't have the chart.
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Jim Eshelman » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:26 am

Since I see you looking to get a handle on how Sidereal astrology approaches natal interpretation, I have a few threads to recommend. Some of them are pretty dense, some are more straightforward.

"Sidereal Astrology Points of Agreement"
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2259

"Strategy of Natal Chart Analysis"
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19

"Astrological Structures"
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1772

"Aim For the Gist"
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2335
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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by blossomintobeing » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:43 am

Jupiter Sets at Dawn wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:14 am
You can start a thread for him. "Blossom's son"
I may do that. Thanks.
I guess it's hard to divide myself from him, so that's normal at some level.
You know that's going to drive him to get further from you at least at some point. Nothing to do with astrology. Just normal parent-child interaction. So you might want to look at how that's affecting your relationship at some point
A strong argument could be made that I am an obsessively balanced parent. I have many flaws in my underbelly, but smothering him is not one of them. That said, I certainly make it known that he is loved. And with that Moon-Venus trine of his, I see him remaining good to me in the future.

His Mercury is also exactly conjunct my Uranus and Jupiter conjunction, and also opposing my moon, so we have similar ideas and he should enjoy talking to me and communicating with me well into the future. We have a healthy bond.
Are there any great threads on purpose you'd recommend that I haven't been able to track down?
I'm not sure what this sentence means. "on purpose" could be read a couple ways. And I don't know what you'd consider "great." But you could read the stuff pinned at the top of each section. Go to Home (index.php) then scroll down to "Natal Astrology" and click on "Misc. on Natal Astrology". There are three posts pinned there worth reading. Then go back to Natal Astrology and click on Planets, and you'll find some posts pinned there.
And so on.
It means on "purpose," or on destiny; what we're here to do; our path in life. I know the Sun is more-or-less a planet of destiny, although a planet's prominence generally gives clues to destiny too. Meaning that a prominent Venus may elevate a love of beauty and potentiate one's skills in design. Placed near moon, a skill for home decorating perhaps. That sort of examination is what I'm curious about, anywhere in the forum. I'll look at your recommendations.

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Re: Blossom's Chart

Post by Danica » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:46 am

A lot to catch up in this thread, agreed!
Blossom, welcome (I have been feeling this but not saying since your first post, due to not time to write here much)!
Just want to say re Houses: I haven't been taking them into consideration at all, since transitioning to Sidereal (about 10 years now), but as of lately, have been noticing how very-to-the-point is the description of the Sun in house and Moon in house for the people I personally know --- this is so without exception! Hence, I started taking them into account (the houses of Luminaries).
QUID VOLIS ILUD FAC

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